For Musicans - Music Notation

[ERD50]

I found this video fascinating. Very long, I watched it in stages, and skimmed over some of the history of Chess notation (but it is an interesting parallel).

I am a very amateur musician, had only a little formal training, I just enjoy banging out a few tunes I know. It's a challenge for me to read music properly, I mostly use it as a guide and fill in and improvise and simplify the rest.

In the video, he reviews numerous alternatives to the present accepted system of how sheet music is written (scored). As he points out the shortcoming of all these, it really gave me an appreciation for how well the current system works.

There is really a lot of value to the visual placement of notes rising and falling on the staff to provide a sense of where the music is going (many of the alternatives use a number or symbol for the note - all on one line, so no vertical/visual cue). And while the symbols for timing (whole, half, quarter, dotted etc) may seem awkward at first, it's a matter of learning them (and there is logic to them), and then they provide a visual cue missing in most of the other systems. They also are much more space efficient, most of the other systems use some sort of linear graphic to represent the time duration of a note (like a 'piano roll' style). So a whole note rest take up as much space on a page as 48 16th notes, so more page turning/scrolling - it's sort of like a built in 'zoom' feature, zooming in where you need the detail, zooming out when the information is less dense. With a graphic representation, it can also be hard to tell the difference in length between something like an eighth note and a dotted eighth or a sixteenth when they are scattered across a page. The current flags/dots work much better for this.

That actually makes it easier for me to accept and try to get better at sight reading, knowing that it (mostly) makes pretty good sense. I just kinda resent being forced into "because that's how we do it" areas.

I have a console organ at home (a B3-clone), 2 full 5 octave keyboards, plus 2 octaves 'full size' bass pedals (not the pipe organ radiating/concave style, but not the little pedals like on a spinet organ). So much of the music I want to read includes bass clef. Now *that* drives me crazy. Why the heck, after getting good enough to site read the note positions, do they shift everything down two full notes? I told my wife, it's like me telling you read the following sentence:

Some qh the yqtfu use the standard cnrjcdgv, cpf"uqog use an alphabet ujkhvgf d{ two rncegu0

Which is:
Some of the words use the standard alphabet, and some use an alphabet shifted by two places.

Know, I get how the current system came about, they took ledger lines only so far, and then when they started the next staff, things were offset. But that just doesn't seem like a good way to do it. Why not have a staff symbol that says which octave you are in, and the note names for each line would then be the same, you just shift octaves, which is easy.

Well, apparently thus was proposed way back when, but was rejected by traditionalists. I say "a pox on them!".

The silver lining in all this though, is that once the score is in a digital format, software can then print it out using whatever notation system that they code in. Man, I like the idea of printing some of the easier Bach pieces with the bass clef just re-written as a Treble Clef, with an octave indication (geez, we already have octave signs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols#Octave_signs and octave clefs - so close!)

I guess I could DIY - transpose the bass clef, then print it with an octave clef marking?

At any rate, I found his approach to critiquing the alternate systems to be really well done, and enlightening. I just never thought through this stuff in this way, much of it is understood and taken for granted though. He is also touching on the oft-mentioned Dunning–Kruger effect (my be some strong language there, I forget).

Discuss!

-ERD50

 

[sengsational]

I played the electric bass starting in high school, and only used bass clef. Not that I ever could read music effectively. I quit the bass from marriage to retirement, and when I pulled it out and dusted it off, I used "bass tabs" because that was what was on YouTube. I can "sight read" those, but at a slower pace than the music. But then again, I basically memorize the song and the written thing just lets me know when the breaks are coming. I needed to play completely by 'motor memory' in order to sing with it, so not looking at anything. Doing vocals and bass is like doing two melodies at once, so the playing has got to be automatic, at least with me.

I wonder if the compactness would be a non-issue if there was some kind of teleprompter. I have always thought something like a Google Glass type thing would work. Especially if all band members had one. And super cool if it could be "smart" by listening and knowing where in the song the band was (removing the need to flip pages). I'm coming up on the break and scan the other members frantically wondering if we're playing the third (one more to go) or the fourth time through (break is next). But nobody has sheet music in a rock band, so it's just body language and glances that keep things in the rails (usually). But sold all my music stuff a couple of years ago, so all I have left is a ukulele, and use chord notations, most of them have nothing else, although some have strumming indications.

 

[EastWest Gal]

As a lifelong musician who learned to read music just after learning to read, there is much more to treble and bass clef than it being shifted by two ledger lines. Treble and bass clef are based on the "grand staff". There are also other clefs. Viola music is written in alto clef, and sometimes cello music is written in tenor clef.

The development of musical notation did not spring from one person's mind, but developed over centuries. Musical notation began with the Greeks. Pope Gregory developed a rudimentary notation called neumes for monophonic Gregorian chants, (590-604 A.D.). A monk named Guido of Arrezo developed a four-line staff around 1025 AD, but musical notation still lacked in marking the length of notes. There were many improvements over the centuries, but it wasn't until the 17th century when there was greater interest in instrumental music that the 5 line staffs were developed. The grand staff uses a ledger line above the staff for "middle C" in bass clef and a ledger line below the staff for the same note in treble clef. The concept is described here:

https://www.people.vcu.edu/~bhammel/theory/resources/lessons/pitch5.htm

Tuba, trombone, string bass, sometimes cello, C euphonium music, and timpani are all written in bass clef, where as the other instruments are all written in treble clef, except for viola. Piano music uses both, which is one of the many reasons that piano is a great starting instrument for all children.

In choir music, soprano and alto parts are in treble cleff and tenor and bass parts are in bass clef. It's a pretty long and complex history.

Regarding the video, which is really long, and I did not go through it, each note actually has its own name. A0 is the lowest note on the piano keyboard and C8 is the highest note. Each note is designated by an a letter and an octave number. But by creating a system that is visual rather than numerical, it seems easier to read to me.

I hope this reply is somewhat helpful. Can you imagine artificially inventing a new system of notation and having every musician relearn how to read it?

 

[ERD50]

... I used "bass tabs" because that was what was on YouTube. I can "sight read" those, but at a slower pace than the music. But then again, I basically memorize the song and the written thing just lets me know when the breaks are coming. I needed to play completely by 'motor memory' in order to sing with it, so not looking at anything. Doing vocals and bass is like doing two melodies at once, so the playing has got to be automatic, at least with me. ...

In the video (and I understand few people are going to wade through such a long one, I'm surprised I made it!), he's actually pretty positive on tabulature as a system for beginners learning specific songs on specific instruments. It gets the job done.

It falls apart beyond that - for one, it's for a specific instrument (bass or guitar), with a specific tuning - it doesn't translate to other instruments generically. And users tend not to learn what notes they are actually playing, and it's hard to visualize something like - oh, that forms a a C# sus4 over a B natural in the low string.

But it works well for its intended/limited use.

... I wonder if the compactness would be a non-issue if there was some kind of teleprompter. I have always thought something like a Google Glass type thing would work. Especially if all band members had one. And super cool if it could be "smart" by listening and knowing where in the song the band was (removing the need to flip pages). ....

I'm pretty sure some forms of that exist today. Not sure if the scrolling is 'listening' for the live beat, but I think I've seen where they start with a BPM, and a simple tap can slow it or speed it up a bit as they go.

As a lifelong musician who learned to read music just after learning to read, there is much more to treble and bass clef than it being shifted by two ledger lines. Treble and bass clef are based on the "grand staff". ....

I hope this reply is somewhat helpful. Can you imagine artificially inventing a new system of notation and having every musician relearn how to read it?

I'm pretty sure I understand most of that about the staffs. I just don't see it as a useful way to approach it. I won't discount ignorance on my part, but it strikes me as much more 'historical' than logical/useful.

Seems to me it actually goes against some of the principles he advocates - why should a Bb trumpet player have sheet music specific to his/her instrument? It should be something a C clef flute payer should be able to pick up and play w/o being forced to transpose. I (think) I understand this was done so that the naturally lowest note on the instrument was written as "C", I guess that means someone switching between trumpets/cornets/etc of different sizes/keys doesn't need to relearn their fingering, but I guess I just see that as it should be solved at the performer level, and allow the music notation to make sense as it stands.

And yes, it's unlikely for any major change to take place, too much inertia and learned skills. Part of his point is that none of the alternatives are good enough (and most of them are downright BAD) to get enough people excited enough to make a big change. But he does point out that there have been a lot of minor changes that have been adopted in the past 50 years or so, but these are more detail oriented, not throwing out a lot of accepted practice.

-ERD50

 

[Music Lover]

I can read music but too slowly to be of any real use. And I read treble clef better than bass clef even though I'm primarily a bass player. For an unfamiliar song the chord changes are enough for me to play most songs well enough to get by on either instrument.

I mostly use my ear to figure out bass parts, most songs just require a couple passes to get it at least 90% figured out. The same for guitar parts unless they contain a lot of inversions and weird chords or alternate tunings. For those songs and songs with complicated bass parts I'll just find someone on YouTube that's already done the work for me.

Tab is useful, especially for rock songs. But there are a lot of bad and incorrect tabs out there so you still need to use your ear or find a correct one.

 

[Gumby]

...
In choir music, soprano and alto parts are in treble cleff and tenor and bass parts are in bass clef. It's a pretty long and complex history....

Actually, we tenors sometimes use the bass clef and sometimes the modified treble clef (an octave below the regular treble clef). It is confusing when you start out, but I have become accustomed to it and would not want to change.

 

[ERD50]

Actually, we tenors sometimes use the bass clef and sometimes the modified treble clef (an octave below the regular treble clef). It is confusing when you start out, but I have become accustomed to it and would not want to change.

I understand that with proficiency, one can become accustomed to the different clefs. But do you see any advantage over basic octave shifts for the different ranges (assuming it was presented this way from the beginning, so no un-learning required)?

-ERD50

 

[yakers]

Interesting discussion, I'll have to ask my musican son (percussion, don't ask) who has an income stream from transcription work. Also teaches basic piano and guitar. He is familiar with the whole notation system, I'm not. But an old, long gone, friend of mine was an exceptional musican (played 25+ string instruments professionally and another 25+ for 'fun') remarkable person in many more ways , anyway he favored learning by ear, thought tapes and personal teachers were great way to go, did not favor notation for teaching/learniing. Maybe there are sight learners and ear learners?

 

[SJhawkins]

I read and write music, not as much as I like so let's just say I'm rusty. It's good to learn and know the theory behind it, more so for writing.

Out of shear laziness playing by ear is my goto, most stuff I like is 3 chords and the truth to play along with. If I was back playing the horn in a full size group notes on the page works best.

 

[razztazz]

I thought it was extremely interesting. I knew about Tabs because I play a little guitar but was unaware that so many alternate methods of music notation had been invented and tried over the years.