Have You Ever Faced Intolerance...

[mb]

Can't say I ever faced intolerance. Pretty much you average white guy but I was born in Utah and mom's side of the family was mormon. Believe it or not when I first moved to CA I heard something to the effect that "Some of my best friends are Mormon" a number of times. Almost cracked up every time I heard it.

MB

 

[unclemick]

Hmmm

I am intorlerant - at the ripe old age of 63 I recognize that my brain sterotypes - until additional facts roll in based on personal experience et al.

Having seen/heard/various types and variety over the years - the one I thought was interesting was being instructed on behavior/when I shouldn't be there in certain Black areas of New Orleans back in the 70's.

Pecking orders - Black social strata in N.O. (Jim), Good and bad Orientals(Tuck), Hispanic groups(Ramon) - over the years.
All engineers probably INTJ - BUT not lefthanded. So watercooler discussion isn't always sex, stocks and sports - just most of the time.

heh heh heh heh heh heh - so in lew of facts, I shall have another cup of coffee. Lost track of Hugh(Arapahoe) who goes to pow wows - collects old computers and his all Star Trek episodes ever made - also INTJ.

 

[Nords]

A lot of cultural differences around here are mistaken for intolerance. A local professor actually writes a weekly newspaper column on the subject.

One friend is easily incensed by "improper" grammar & vocabulary. She tends to judge people by the degree to which they're able to spell correctly and to sling the King's English. Yet the Hawaiian language doesn't have many "Western" grammar concepts, and local pidgin is an even more stripped-down creole. So when she encounters pidgin she decides that the person is uneducated-- and she somehow feels that she's being disrespected when people won't address her "in propah English". I'm just glad that a local radio comedian ended his hilarious "Eh, brah-nics" language skits ("Ebonics"-- get it?) before she moved here.

Some Mainland employees are greatly annoyed by Hawaii nepotism. Yet many Asian cultures would prefer to hire a family member (or at least a distant cousin) who owes them loyalty (and can presumably be trained) instead of a total stranger who's happened to acquire a Harvard MBA, a couple decades' experience, and a bunch of other non-essential skills. Good business sense or intolerance?

For our first couple years here, our neighbors rarely accepted our social invitations and didn't invite us. It turns out that they wouldn't dream of forcing us to choose between socializing with our family and spending time with neighbors/friends. Once they understood that we had no local family then the invitations started flowing. Either that or they knew that I was a submariner and it took a while to warm up to me.

Hawaii is considered a very small place in comparison to Mainland locales and your words have a way of returning to haunt you. Even the younger people hesitate to castigate in absentia and older people usually "no talk stink". Sometimes this lets a problem continue for far longer than it should, especially in the legislative bodies.

I grew up in a somewhat outspoken environment where concepts like tact and discretion were seldom practiced. If someone wants something from me, I kinda expect them to ask me for it. If I offer something to someone, I used to expect a definite answer. But in many places here the "no" answer is more tactfully expressed as "Oh, thank you, you're so kind, I really appreciate that, that's very thoughtful of you." About the sixth or seventh time I heard that it occurred to me that I was hearing "No thanks." And in return, if your request is going to receive a negative response, you seldom hear the "no" word. Instead you're likely to hear "Oh, you know what, Mr. Nords?"

No complaints. I was at a school event a couple years ago and overheard a grandfather describing WWII internment to his grandkid. At the time he was the same age as his grandkid is now and it was a powerful story to a six-year-old.

 

[JB]

When I first moved to Hawaii I lived in a very local neighborhood. It was great, wonderful people, close to the beach, with a fantastic view. Only problem was the two or three 'ice' houses nearby. One evening while out walking the dog I was attacked by a guy and his pit bull. He was obviously high on ice. He tried to get his dog to attack us and was yelling f**kin' haole. He thinks he's 'local' but he's not. Fortunately, the dog was young and didn't fully respond to his commands. Instead he engaged in 'play fighting' with my dog. I was very upset by this incident and almost left Hawaii. A few months later the same guy attacked a cashier in a store. He want to jail for that.

I talked with several haoles who've been here a long time. Many have experienced similiar incidents. With the recent ice epidemic it's getting worse.

 

[Cool Dood]

Why call it "ice" when you can just call it what it is, methamphetamine. Does "ice" make it sound more like something to blame for violent, racist behavior?

 

[Martha]

I went to school in a very small town. No homework on Wednesdays--church night.  Prayers in the school.  The Jesus people or Jesus freak thing was just getting going when I was finishing high school.  Nearly everyday someone was telling me to get saved.  

My family did not fit in.  

I was also the brainiac girl with glasses.  Didn't play well in my home town where boys were supposed to be number one and girls were supposed to marry them and have babies.  

I hated high school and I will remember the experience forever.  

 

[Scrooge]

Why call it "ice" when you can just call it what it is, methamphetamine.

Note that there are 13 single syllable words in that sentence and one that is ... not

 

[Cool Dood]

Usually the longer a word is, the more simple it is. For instance, "ice" tells you both too much and not enough about what it's describing, whereas my five-syllabler tells you exactly what it is.

But, good kill

 

[Martha]

Usually the longer a word is, the more simple it is.

Like nincompoop?

 

[Cool Dood]

Like nincompoop?

Assuming it's built from familiar roots using recognized rules...

I quit as pedant. Somebody else can do this stupid job!

 

[JB]

Usually the longer a word is, the more simple it is. For instance, "ice" tells you both too much and not enough about what it's describing, whereas my five-syllabler tells you exactly what it is.

Why call it "ice" when you can just call it what it is, methamphetamine. Does "ice" make it sound more like something to blame for violent, racist behavior?

'Ice' is common terminology (both here and in rural america) for the drug. Ice is more specific than methamphetamine. Methamphetamine was once widely prescribed by doctors and is still manfactured by Abbott labs (sold as Desoxyn) and prescribed for obesity and hyperactivity. Ice is made locally, is illegal, and is usually smoked.

I think meth abuse does contribute to violent behavior. I forget the numbers but much of the violent crime here is due to people who are high on ice -- not Desoxyn.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Well, I was glad Cool explained it, not knowing about "ice" but having heard a lot about "meth". I don't get out much, though.
Thanks, Cool.

Sarah

 

[Leonidas]

Ice is to Methamphetamine as Crack is to Cocaine.

In both cases the HCL form of the drug is changed to a solid, non-soluble form, which then makes them suitable for smoking (burns at a much lower temperature). Cocaine users discovered this a long time ago with “freebasing”, which not only makes the cocaine smokeable, but also produces a very pure base form of the drug. The down side of that is that either has to be used and ala Richard Pryor, we all know how flammable that is.

Crack cocaine is made similarly to freebase, but it is almost never made using ether or filtration. The result is a smokeable form of Cocaine that is no more purer than the original Cocaine HCL used to make it. In fact, drug dealers loved crack because they could add fillers to “make” more crack out of the adulterants. More, but weaker, dope to sell for lower cost - entrepreneurs they are.

Crack was attractive to users because smoking beats the heck out of injecting or snorting. It causes a very quick, almost instantaneous high. Freebasers and crack users abuse the drug differently than users of Cocaine HCL – they’ll keep hitting the pipe until they run out of dope to smoke. Within minutes they are sober again and looking for the next rock to put in their pipe. Another big plus for the dealers – a customer base that will take all of your product they can get their hands on and that’s all they think about.

Ten plus years ago, Methamphetamine was not much of a problem in this country. It was all domestically made and law enforcement had found a lot of ways to cut off the supply of chemicals like Red Phosphorous and Anhydrous Ammonia as well as the glassware and other lab equipment. It was pretty dry in most of the country. Exceptions started in Hawaii (imported from somewhere in Asia, I think) and California, and have since spread all across the country.

The big drivers behind Methamphetamine production today are the Mexican drug cartels who have latched on to Meth as the way to make money without having to buy Cocaine from South America. It’s big money and they going after market share in a big way.

Ice can be made from Methamphetamine like Crack is made from Cocaine (no increase in purity), and it can also be made as freebasing was done with Cocaine (high purity levels). Since making Meth involves all sorts of nasty chemicals that are flammable, using a little ether to make nearly pure Ice would be just another day at the office for the people cooking this stuff up. That is my best guess as to why law enforcement is seizing Ice with purity levels in the high 80’s and low 90 percent range. The other possibility is that they’re just making incredibly pure Methamphetamine and not bothering to add any fillers when they make it into Ice.

I’ve seen a brazillion crackheads and speedfreaks and neither are pretty sights. I would say that speedfreaks tend to be more paranoid and more prone to violence than the average crackhead. Bear in mind that the crack-monkeys of my experience were smoking 45-65% pure and the speedfreaks were injecting, snorting or ingesting stuff that could be as weak as 15% and rarely ever got better than 35-40% pure. Somebody smoking 85% pure must be scary as hell.

 

[Cool Dood]

Well, I was glad Cool explained it, not knowing about "ice" but having heard a lot about "meth". I don't get out much, though.
Thanks, Cool.

Sarah

I do it for the ladies.

 

[Cool Dood]

Ice is to Methamphetamine as Crack is to Cocaine.

What, a way to give black dudes way harsher sentences than white dudes for the same innocent activity?

I’ve seen a brazillion crackheads and speedfreaks and neither are pretty sights. I would say that speedfreaks tend to be more paranoid and more prone to violence than the average crackhead. Bear in mind that the crack-monkeys of my experience were smoking 45-65% pure and the speedfreaks were injecting, snorting or ingesting stuff that could be as weak as 15% and rarely ever got better than 35-40% pure. Somebody smoking 85% pure must be scary as hell.

Eh, a 45-65% government (or religion, etc.) does way more harm to way more innocent people, and takes way more of their money, than any meth addicts or speedfreaks or crackheads ever will. Some government running 85% pure must be scary as hell.

 

[Leonidas]

What, a way to give black dudes way harsher sentences than white dudes for the same innocent activity?

You must be looking at a different set of laws than I'm familiar with. Last time I checked, they didn't say anything about the race of the offender and it was pretty specific that the manufacture, sale or possession of either Cocaine or Methamphetamine was a felony.

Eh, a 45-65% government (or religion, etc.) does way more harm to way more innocent people, and takes way more of their money, than any meth addicts or speedfreaks or crackheads ever will. Some government running 85% pure must be scary as hell.

I've re-read what I posted and I don't see where I wrote anything about religion, and government was only mentioned tangentially.

 

[Cool Dood]

You must be looking at a different set of laws than I'm familiar with. Last time I checked, they didn't say anything about the race of the offender and it was pretty specific that the manufacture, sale or possession of either Cocaine or Methamphetamine was a felony.

ok, but if you see one drug used mostly by blacks, and the same drug in a different form that's used mostly by whites, and make the law so that the penalties for one are dozens of times harsher than for the other, it's pretty hard to see that as reasonable and not racist. Especially when a large part of the motivation for criminalizing that whole category of "crime" in the first place was overtly racist. Against the same group.

I've re-read what I posted and I don't see where I wrote anything about religion, and government was only mentioned tangentially.

I brought them up as a valid and interesting comparison... it's acceptable to "shop talk" about the woes of these a**hole drug users (even when it's mentally ill people who are violent regardless of drug use), but that pales in comparison to the millions of ruined lives and billions of dollars, etc., wasted by respected institutions like government and religion.

Sorry, got to run -- will gladly discuss this further!

 

[Lazarus]

I can only recall one event in over 20 years, and I can't judge if it's intolerance or discrimination or just plain belief in something different by the other person.

I was in a small town in northwestern Nebraska, going for an MBA from a small state college so that I could keep legal immigration status. I was renting the basement apartment of a sweet 80+ year-old lady. Her son-in-law would come in periodically to do repairs. He was a slight man, soft-spoken, not threatening at all.

One time, he came to repair something and engaged me in conversation and asked if I were dating. I was, so I said yes and he asked if the guy was American and I said yes. And then he told me about God not wanting races to mix, and that's the reason why there were all these geographical obstacles--mountains, rivers, oceans, etc. (Silently, I was trying to decide if I should ask him why God allowed us to invent carts, cars, planes, trains, etc. but I decided to just let him go on.) He went on about what would my then-BF's and my offspring be if we had one. (Human?) Then, he rhetorically asked if there were species of animals that mixed, and truly not knowing much about biology as a business major, I said what about dogs? I can't recall how the conversation ended but eventually he went away.

My then-BF was steamed when I told him about this, but I dissuaded him from talking to the guy because the sem was ending and I'd be moving out anyway. Also, I just started thinking of what an uncle of mine would do in such a situation. (I look up to this uncle.) I decided that he would kind of think "I am glad that I know better than that man."

Other minor intolerance I've encountered were just in the form of comments not about me but other officemates from other countries who'd bring food for lunch that smelled a little stronger or fishier than standard American fare. I would always feel uncomfortable even if I were not the subject because I was a foreigner, too, and loved strange, smelly food. I remember my aunt from the US visiting us in the Philippines when I was just a child and still living there. She announced that Americans are very sensitive to smell. Our neighborhood in Manila was (still is) a hodge-podge of smells that our noses had become desensitized but here in the US, there are not very many bad smells.

So, there you have them, my intolerance experiences--intolerance of racial intermixing and intolerance of smells.

Sorry for your experience. When I was living in Oklahoma my next door neighbors adopted a Korean baby. One of the old ladys in the neighborhood asked me if it would speak English!

I said yes, with an Oklahoma accent.

 

[Nords]

What, a way to give black dudes way harsher sentences than white dudes for the same innocent activity?

Dood, one of Hawaii's more notable recent ice cases was Petty Officer Theresa Moss, a Sailor of the Year on loan to the Navy Reserve Center Honolulu.  She and her spouse are about as Caucasian as they come.  She did have to give her SOY plaque back after she earned a different sort of award-- a DD-- and she had to go to Leavenworth to pick it up.

Of course their friend is Samoan.  I'm not sure where that fits into your racial vision of the world...

http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/14/news/story9.html
http://starbulletin.com/2004/11/23/news/story12.html

I believe the case, the Navy's first meth lab in base housing (as far as they know), shows how severe the ice problem has become over here.

Next day edit:
Scientific American (Aug 2006) has a one-page article on the eastward spread of crystal methamphetamine over the last decade. Apparently in terms of the high and the addiction, ice is much worse than cocaine... binges lasting for days followed by weeks of paranoia/depression until the next cycle, compared with less than three days for cocaine.

A sidebar claims "In the U.S., 78% of users are white, 14% Hispanic and 4% black. 78% are male, and 82% are 26 years old or older. 1.4 million people used methamphetamine in 2004 and 600K of them had used it within the last month."