Hybrid Vehicles - When Will you purchase one

[Nords]

Next month or two-- buy it used from a desperate seller and drive it into the ground.

IEEE Spectrum: Plugging Away in a Prius
a story of an engineer getting an all electric Prius, although a bit pricey, but it's something Nords could do, and with his home solar system, would actually have a negative milage cost.

Well, step 1 complete. We bought a 2006 Prius two days ago for $21,500. 23k miles. Just over BlueBook. Silver. It's the most grown-up car I've ever owned.

We've been planning to buy one for over a year and we started looking earlier this month. Where last year's Craigslist ads offered a couple a week, this year was a different story. I've been reading on PriusChat.com that the Mainland dealers are already selling out of inventory. There are no desperate sellers, or at least we weren't willing to wait any longer. After 10 minutes talking to the owner (who had another customer show up during our chat) we realized there would be no negotiations.

It's a cherry deal, too, without the marginal titles or usual whackos selling their "good used cars". Our seller wasn't using it and he was tired of talking to tire-kickers (over 20 of them). The car sells itself about 10 seconds after you push the "Power" button, and you can move fast with a certified check. I suspect that we'll actually see used vehicles gain value this summer, although that'll probably settle down by next year.

Our kid (who's been driving for "over six days now") contributed $5K of her own money and is thrilled with her 23% share. I'm thrilled with the drive-by-wire controls & engineering. Spouse is thrilled with the "cute" factor and the cabin space. Our sum total of the purchases of the seven other cars we've ever owned is about $36K, so this was a big step up.

Our Taurus averages 19 mpg, but that was before our teen driver started her education. The Prius will pull at least 45 mpg (the last mile home is all battery). Of course with driving on an island we're only going to save ~$500/year (compounded by "gasoline inflation") but we're holding this Prius for at least 10 years.

PHEV conversions don't pay back yet, although this IEEE guy will be closer than most. Notice that he's used all of his home's roof space, as tends to happen to solar geeks. However the price of PV panels is falling fast as industry ramps up production to meet demand and I've found a new mounting system that spouse can live with. Our current 3300-watt array just about equals our consumption so a PHEV won't take much more. In the next five years we'll probably add another 3-4 KW system (or a bigger inverter along with more panels, or perhaps a wind turbine) and have more than enough capacity to include the car. (But I still need to verify the math.) In the next five years we'll either buy a production PHEV or homebrew our own conversion. I'm seeing barebones kits in the $6-7K range and that will drop. But we only spend $1200-$1400 a year on gas before this, so paybacks are beyond most drivers. Perhaps a few persistent DIYs will install systems this year that will payback in 10 years. By 2015 people will be buying 10KW systems from "Solar 'R' Us" next to the Toyota dealer.

The car is very aerodynamic and sits very low to the ground, so design compromises were made that reduced visibility. You can't see the hood from inside, although in some weird way that's not an issue. The front bumper's air dam scrapes the driveway's curb ramp unless you back out at an angle. The rear blind spots suck, as I'm sure Toyota is hearing daily. Everyone in the car also has a tendency to tinker with the multifunction display (including the driver) so passing can be especially dangerous. But this car is only ~3000 pounds and has plenty of acceleration (the electric motor boosts the gas engine, or rather vice versa) so it's easy to get out of trouble.

The display runs the ventilation (electronically) and eliminates a lot of controls & dashboard crap. (I'd rather replace a display screen any day than a mixing lever.) There's also an impressive number of extra buttons on the steering wheel so that the driver can minimize distractions.

The oil filter is the tiniest thing I've ever seen above a lawnmower and should be sold in six-packs.

Besides the visibility challenge, the car has another annoying flaw-- Toyota put the radio antenna right in the middle of the roof's longboard rack. The antenna unscrews but leaves behind a hockey-puck base that's going to need a little working around. But when I'm paddling out by myself the cabin holds a 9'0" just fine.

It's a keeper.

 

[W2R]

Nords, congratulations!! (By the way, I agree with your wife on the "cute factor".... much cuter than a Taurus.) Have fun!

 

[plsprius]

I apologize in advance, but this joke is just too good:

"People who own a Prius drive under a cloud of smug."

(including me...)

- plsprisu

 

[bright eyed]

hey, here's the gap filler hybrid...

What young Hollywood wants for Xmas: The 6-door Prius limo - Autoblog

 

[plsprius]

Prius: Green or Greenwash?

I was reading the SF Chronicle today and came across this good article on the energy supply/energy demand situation: ON THE RECORD: VINOD KHOSLA ON THE RECORD: VINOD KHOSLA

For those of you who are really interested in the economics ($, carbon) of hybrids, etc., you should take a look at this very comprehensive review of the issues by Mr. Khosla: http://www.khoslaventures.com/presentations/Hybrids.doc

Lots to think about here--and maybe some reasonable solutions, too.

- plsprius

 

[kumquat]

Where I live we have 7 months of winter and it can get colder than 50 below. In order for the heater to work, the gasoline engine in a hybrid would have to run full time. Not every efficient and not very likely I'll ever own one.

Funny, there's no emoticon freezing my b...s off.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

 

[mh]

The 'premium' isn't really all that much. Especially when you take into account the tax breaks (although for the Prius I think that one is ending soon).
I own one, my wife owns one. I will likely not buy another as I plan to purchase an all electric vehicle next (2-5 years).
As for pay back, if you don't want a higher mpg car, that is fine. But why talk about pay back? How much time passes to pay you back for the added price of a sunroof, or fancy radio, or heated seats?
For this person I wanted high mpg for two reasons. One is the enviornment (yes yes, I know the Prius isn't perfect in this area, but it is better), two is our national security. We need to import less oil and if my representatives wont work to take the country in that direction, I will do what I can personally.
Around here many would probably laugh at spending as much as I am willing to to do this. But many of the general public will spend 35k on a car so they can have leather, heated seats, and a luxury name. Well I will do that to buy a Prius with the PHEV conversion so I can get 90mpg

As others have noted, the type of driving will alter your mpg by quite a bit (this is even moreso with the PHEV modules). So if it is a purely economic question for you (which is perfectly fine) consider the type of driving you are going to do and talk with some owners of the brand you are looking at.

Let's say everybody magically owned a prius tomorrow and all the
existing cars have magically disappeared. How will you then be more secure?
To me it seems quite difficult to
make a good case for that theory.

As far as your payback comments, i agree with you, if you like the idea
of a hybrid and you are willing to pay the price for your "idealized car"
then go ahead. that's why most people buy
cars above a certain price range (as far as i can tell).

 

[jimnjana]

I have nothing "against" hybrids and will buy one when it is the most economical and reliable option (for me). Hybrids still aren't for me, though they are getting closer. I think we don't have the information necessary to predict when they will reach this point. Government and the automotive and insurance industries can all affect how good of a deal a hybrid would be for me.

I voted "never" because I will probably buy another Camry Solara in 2010 when I am 62, and drive it until sometime in my 70's when I will stop driving completely due to age.

...by then 70's will be the new 40's...You'll probably be driving well into your 80's...BTW, I agree with you 100%. Buying a hybrid vehicle today is not the most economical choice for me at this time.

Jim

 

[Zathras]

The problem I see is he is comparing todays hybrids to hypothetical Flex Fuel cars running on cellulosic ethonal.
Also, the comparison is for the cars direct emmisions and not the emmisions from the growth and harvest, or production of the fuels.
I do agree with him that the overall CO2 savings are not nearly as big as the hype would suggest.
However, the reason for that is the hype is not solely about reducing CO2 emmissions. It is about people being able to use less gasoline.
I also agree with him that the current corn based ethanol is an interim step on our way to cellulosic ethanol which will be a much better solution.
However, by the time we have cellulosic ethonal in large scale production and distribution I think we will also have pure EVs. And pure EVs will put the ethanol vehicles to shame if he wishes to use the same emmission standards (only considering emmissions only from the car itself).

 

[Insanity]

Hybrid or something else . . .

Replacing one of our two well-maintained and good-condition cars with a hybrid doesn't make economic, environmental, or even political sense right now.

On the economic front, it just doesn't make sense to trade in a working vehicle on one that gets better gas mileage. We could sell the most valuable of our two vehicles (a 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe) for perhaps $8000 while a new Prius costs about $24,000. That's a difference of $16K to earn a 125% mpg improvement from 21 miles per gallon to 47. Even with gas at $10/gallon I'd have to drive 60,000 miles (about six years the way I drive) before I'd break even on the transaction. Only then would a Prius start earning it's keep, and that assumes $10/gal gas!

On the environmental front, making our cars takes energy, too. Not just the energy to mine the basic materials we build them from, but the energy to turn those materials into a final product, the shipping of components, and even the energy used to get the workers to the places they needed to be to make the car. And then there's more energy spent converting the junked car into a new, usable product. When you junk a car all that energy is lost.

Politically -- and thinking "politics" in a very broad sense right now -- I don't think it makes sense, either. My last car, a '92 Geo Metro, got 44 MPG, just a hair under what a Toyota Prius gets now, and it wasn't a hybrid. The old Honda CRV got even better gas mileage than my Metro, about 60 MPG. Treating a Prius like an MPG night in shining armor is short-sighted politics, not politics taking a long view. My political message should not be that the answer to our gas mileage woes is a Prius, I want something better than a Prius.

We already know how to make more efficient cars. All we have to do is apply that knowledge and do it, something I think the car manufacturers are gearing up to do right now, though I expect it'll take three years or so for the makers to design and re-tool their lines to produce the new cars. As our cars wear out and need replacement I'm hoping I'll be able to buy something more efficient than a gas-guzzling Prius!

I currently do other things to save gas. I've always used mass-transit, combined shopping trips, and ride the bus two to three days a week instead of taking my car. My wife, who doesn't have easy bus access to where she works, drives our 36 MPG Toyota Corolla. And, in a few years when my son leaves the nest, we'll buy a smaller (read "more energy efficient) home located closer to shops (bicycling and walking distance would be nice) with better mass-transit options. Doing these things will, in the long run, save much more gas than buying a Prius.

 

[Zathras]

On the economic front, it just doesn't make sense to trade in a working vehicle on one that gets better gas mileage.

I absolutely agree. Most of my friends and myself that have bought hybrids only do so when we are planning to buy a new car anyways.

We could sell the most valuable of our two vehicles (a 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe) for perhaps $8000 while a new Prius costs about $24,000. That's a difference of $16K to earn a 125% mpg improvement from 21 miles per gallon to 47. Even with gas at $10/gallon I'd have to drive 60,000 miles (about six years the way I drive) before I'd break even on the transaction. Only then would a Prius start earning it's keep, and that assumes $10/gal gas!

For that money though gas mileage is not the ONLY thing you are getting. You are also getting any other improvements between your old and new cars. It may not make up all the cost difference but it will make up for quite a bit of it.

On the environmental front, making our cars takes energy, too. Not just the energy to mine the basic materials we build them from, but the energy to turn those materials into a final product, the shipping of components, and even the energy used to get the workers to the places they needed to be to make the car. And then there's more energy spent converting the junked car into a new, usable product. When you junk a car all that energy is lost.

This is a great point which I think a lot of people don't consider. Very few people look at issues long term and plan accordingly. If the old car meets your needs, no reason to change.

Politically -- and thinking "politics" in a very broad sense right now -- I don't think it makes sense, either. My last car, a '92 Geo Metro, got 44 MPG, just a hair under what a Toyota Prius gets now, and it wasn't a hybrid. The old Honda CRV got even better gas mileage than my Metro, about 60 MPG. Treating a Prius like an MPG night in shining armor is short-sighted politics, not politics taking a long view. My political message should not be that the answer to our gas mileage woes is a Prius, I want something better than a Prius.

I agree with you, I want something better too. However, at this time I am unable to find anything better. If an older car gets the same or better mieage than the best available on the market now (in the US) by all means, stick with it and more power to you

We already know how to make more efficient cars. All we have to do is apply that knowledge and do it, something I think the car manufacturers are gearing up to do right now, though I expect it'll take three years or so for the makers to design and re-tool their lines to produce the new cars. As our cars wear out and need replacement I'm hoping I'll be able to buy something more efficient than a gas-guzzling Prius!

I won't refuse 'better' because 'best isn't available yet. If I need a car, I will buy the best on the market, and right now, that is a Prius. That may change next year, or in a couple. I hope it does because that would mean more compitition which hopefully would drive better and better products.

I currently do other things to save gas. I've always used mass-transit, combined shopping trips, and ride the bus two to three days a week instead of taking my car. My wife, who doesn't have easy bus access to where she works, drives our 36 MPG Toyota Corolla. And, in a few years when my son leaves the nest, we'll buy a smaller (read "more energy efficient) home located closer to shops (bicycling and walking distance would be nice) with better mass-transit options. Doing these things will, in the long run, save much more gas than buying a Prius.

Absolutley, and I applaud you. If everyone that could followed your lead we wouldn't me in nearly as much of a mess.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Replacing one of our two well-maintained and good-condition cars with a hybrid doesn't make economic, environmental, or even political sense right now.

On the economic front, it just doesn't make sense to trade in a working vehicle on one that gets better gas mileage. We could sell the most valuable of our two vehicles (a 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe) for perhaps $8000 while a new Prius costs about $24,000. That's a difference of $16K to earn a 125% mpg improvement from 21 miles per gallon to 47. Even with gas at $10/gallon I'd have to drive 60,000 miles (about six years the way I drive) before I'd break even on the transaction. Only then would a Prius start earning it's keep, and that assumes $10/gal gas!

On the environmental front, making our cars takes energy, too. Not just the energy to mine the basic materials we build them from, but the energy to turn those materials into a final product, the shipping of components, and even the energy used to get the workers to the places they needed to be to make the car. And then there's more energy spent converting the junked car into a new, usable product. When you junk a car all that energy is lost.

Politically -- and thinking "politics" in a very broad sense right now -- I don't think it makes sense, either. My last car, a '92 Geo Metro, got 44 MPG, just a hair under what a Toyota Prius gets now, and it wasn't a hybrid. The old Honda CRV got even better gas mileage than my Metro, about 60 MPG. Treating a Prius like an MPG night in shining armor is short-sighted politics, not politics taking a long view. My political message should not be that the answer to our gas mileage woes is a Prius, I want something better than a Prius.

We already know how to make more efficient cars. All we have to do is apply that knowledge and do it, something I think the car manufacturers are gearing up to do right now, though I expect it'll take three years or so for the makers to design and re-tool their lines to produce the new cars. As our cars wear out and need replacement I'm hoping I'll be able to buy something more efficient than a gas-guzzling Prius!

I currently do other things to save gas. I've always used mass-transit, combined shopping trips, and ride the bus two to three days a week instead of taking my car. My wife, who doesn't have easy bus access to where she works, drives our 36 MPG Toyota Corolla. And, in a few years when my son leaves the nest, we'll buy a smaller (read "more energy efficient) home located closer to shops (bicycling and walking distance would be nice) with better mass-transit options. Doing these things will, in the long run, save much more gas than buying a Prius.

I completely agree with this entire post--well said.

 

[FinanceDude]

The old Honda CRV got even better gas mileage than my Metro, about 60 MPG.

That's amazing, was it 4WD?? I have NEVER heard of an SUV getting that...........

 

[Insanity]

Oops! That should have read CRX (A 2-place Honda Civic variant, not an SUV.)

That's amazing, was it 4WD?? I have NEVER heard of an SUV getting that...........