Millennials and Work.

[daylatedollarshort]

I am a boomer but I think people are wising up about the American Dream. There are the things advertising says will make us happy and then there are the things happiness studies show really make people happy. Interestingly there is a lot less overlap than I would have thought. After a certain amount of money to it just is better for health and happiness not to work so much. Social connections are one happiness factor and they are hard to form when you are working 70 hour weeks. Good health is another happiness factor, and it is harder to stay healthy when you sit on your rear all day inside an office building and go home when it is dark outside.

When I first started working employees usually only got laid off if either they screwed up or the company was in financial trouble. But the last decade or so has shown employees being worked to death, sometimes literally, getting great reviews and bonuses and still getting laid off at any time just so the CEO can make $15M a year instead of $13M. It is not a motivating situation. If the reward for working hard and getting a project wrapped up is to to get outsourced at the end why bother to work hard?

 

[Chuckanut]

Alas many corporations have taught their employees that hard work is not worth the sacrifice. Having watched their elders get screwed blued and tattooed despite all their best efforts at being a loyal employee, the young folks have learned the lesson. I don't mean to be cynical, but I have seen so many people get tossed in the waste bin just because the big boys and girls messed up.

Years ago my father told me that while I may be employed by somebody else, I should always be working for myself. He was right.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

My husband worked for a company where they laid everyone in the department off to move to a cheaper state. Everyone got laid off and some chose to move and reapply and earn 2/3 their old salaries, no paid relocation and in California that meant giving up their Prop 13 tax base. Some did move and then the company rewarded those loyal employee who relocated their homes, spouses and school age kids for them by laying them off again and moving their jobs overseas not too long afterwards, leaving them unemployed in a city with fewer job opportunities.

At many megacorps the employees are just nameless, faceless FTEs, as one of my former bosses referred to the people in her department (fulltime equivalent units).

 

[kombat]

When I started working it was expected that one would have, at most, two or three jobs before settling down in one place for a career where one would stay until retirement. That's not a very good plan now! Yesterday's "unstable job hopper" is the norm and practically a requirement.

Note that there's a subtle side-effect of this kind of "career lifestyle." I'm 39, and am currently with my 4th employer. Out of university (circa 1999), I joined a high-tech megacorp that fell victim to the dot-com bust. I then went to a much smaller startup, which eventually failed, and I went to another relatively small (<50 employees) company. I'm now with the government.

Yes, such work histories are more the "norm" now, and resumes featuring such hop-scotching are not regarded with nearly as much disdain as in the past. However, some work benefits are still based on years of service, rather than years of experience. Specifically, I only have 3 weeks of vacation. I've been "stuck" at 3 weeks of vacation for over a decade, and I'm looking at at least 5 more years before I get that 4th week (I started my current position with the government relatively recently). I doubt I'll ever make it up to that mythical 5th week of vacation.

Of course, this has benefits to employers, as they're shelling out fewer vacation days to their workforce, and get the benefit of increased productivity. On the other hand, workers have less time-off, and concordantly, less time to SPEND their money. Honestly, I'm not sure I'd know what to do with 5 weeks of vacation. I'd probably travel more, which would cost me more money and slow my progress towards retirement.

Some interesting social consequences to the trend toward frequent job changes.

 

[donheff]

I'm a baby boomer but have come around to a way of thinking that is similar to the Millennial way of thinking, and so have many of my contemporaries. My co-worker Bill said it really well yesterday: "Work is what we do so we can (afford to) spend quality time with family." I now firmly believe that people are what matters, and work, accomplishment, revenue growth, etc., exist to facilitate personal connections at some level. I got here by realizing what was important to me. Maybe many Millennials got there as a reaction to a measure of futility they perceive in the other prospect. Doesn't matter. It is what it is.

+1 but I see it more as a return to origins. In the late 60s and early 70s I and many of my contemporaries echoed these same sentiments. Then we had kids and transformed into dedicated hard workers for 30+ years, always with a bit of irony and rebel attitude towards both our own conformity and our organizations' rigidity. Now that we are ERd and can afford it we feel fully returned to those earlier attitudes. I am reading Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, about "new" attitudes to work and management and, while some of them are quite innovative, the underlying attitudes and efforts are not far off from things we tried to do in decades past.

 

[frank]

I think that this site is about financial independence and what it takes to get and keep it. financial independence is about the ability to spend your time and life as you see fit, not how some one else says you should. whether it be more time with family or other pursuits , it is still your time once you have the means to do it.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

I think that this site is about financial independence and what it takes to get and keep it. financial independence is about the ability to spend your time and life as you see fit, not how some one else says you should. whether it be more time with family or other pursuits , it is still your time once you have the means to do it.

Generation to generation, the FIRE philosophy hasn't changed. Money = Freedom. While many recognize this simple truth, few seem to have the discipline to implement it. The lures of "shiny things" and instant gratification are far too strong for most people.

 

[gauss]

Years ago my father told me that while I may be employed by somebody else, I should always be working for myself. He was right.

Somewhere along the line I picked up the following phrase:

Get while the gettin's good because it might not be good forever...

It might have had something to do with my upbringing during the 70s recession.
-gauss

 

[imoldernu]

I thought I was a member of the Greatest Generation, because I was born in the mid 1930's.
When I found this website, that specifies the parameters of the different "generations"...

Here Is When Each Generation Begins and Ends, According to Facts - The Atlantic

I was disappointed to find out that my generation is not defined, since I was too young to fight in WWII.

Words of disappointment from a member of the Lost Generation.

Your official demarcation of generational boundaries
We identified six different generations, and labeled their eras.

Greatest Generation. These are the people that fought and died in World War II for our freedom, which we appreciate. But it's a little over-the-top as far as names go, isn't it? Tom Brokaw made the name up and of course everyone loved it. What, you're going to argue with your grandfather that he isn't in the greatest generation? The generation ended when the war ended.

Baby Boomers. This is the agreed-upon generation that falls within DiPrete's punctuated timeframe. It began when the Greatest Generation got home and started having sex with everyone; it ended when having sex with everyone was made easier with The Pill.

 

[Totoro]

Have you seen the new benefits that today's corporation are offering to this new group. No Pension, very expensive medical plan if available, very low wages, and you can forget about any reasonable increase. Today's corporations have started a new transformation that one day they will regret. In the old days, any time a new rule was created it was apply to everyone on a equal basis. I have gone through some new rules that do not apply to management but do apply to everyone below a certain grade. I do tell the new hires to learn as much as they can and jump ship when a new opportunity comes along. New dog learning new tricks!!!

Unless you are in the rarified luxury top.

Example from strategy consulting firm: 10% goes into pension fund, full medical coverage (including things like dental), 200k+ salaries after 5 years or so, increases in double digits and a generous bonus plan. Sponsored MBA is also par for the course.

Thus millenial behaviour: either go for the top in a few short years and put in the hours, or putter along the bottom milking the system. Or better yet, don't go to megacorp. Craft your own way for about the same pay and more freedom.

 

[JoeWras]

I thought I was a member of the Greatest Generation, because I was born in the mid 1930's.
When I found this website, that specifies the parameters of the different "generations"...

Here Is When Each Generation Begins and Ends, According to Facts - The Atlantic

I was disappointed to find out that my generation is not defined, since I was too young to fight in WWII.

Words of disappointment from a member of the Lost Generation.

You are the "Silent Generation" according to Wikipedia.

Generation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[marko]

Generation to generation, the FIRE philosophy hasn't changed. Money = Freedom. While many recognize this simple truth, few seem to have the discipline to implement it. The lures of "shiny things" and instant gratification are far too strong for most people.

Well, that's a bit of what my post asks: The Millennials don't seem to have much money but have a lot more freedom. They seem to have a different set of values of what makes them happy and seem willing to accept more freedom at the expense of having to work too hard for that money.

As one young poster mentioned so well, a lot of things that they value are available for very low cost to them that we didn't have (or value).

 

[eytonxav]

I think there is an innate bias to think one's generation is better than all subsequent generations, especially when comparing to the most current one.

 

[nash031]

I think there is an innate bias to think one's generation is better than all subsequent generations, especially when comparing to the most current one.

Agreed... but kids these days need to stay off my lawn.

 

[kombat]

When the millenials actually manage to start reproducing at rates that will at least replace their own numbers I will regard them collectively as something more than overgrown, self-indulgent children.

What makes you say that people who deliberately choose not to reproduce are "self-indulgent?"

 

[brewer12345]

What makes you say that people who deliberately choose not to reproduce are "self-indulgent?"

Raising kids is hard work and extremely expensive. The costs are largely borne by the parents, but society as a whole benefits. Many of the younger generation(s) have simply decided to skip the hard work and expense in favor of amusing themselves (or whatever). This did not work out so well for Japan.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Raising kids is hard work and extremely expensive. The costs are largely borne by the parents, but society as a whole benefits. Many of the younger generation(s) have simply decided to skip the hard work and expense in favor of amusing themselves (or whatever). This did not work out so well for Japan.

True, but whose life is it - yours or society's?

 

[brewer12345]

True, but whose life is it - yours or society's?

Sounds like the watchword and countersign of the younger generation. But facts are facts.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Sounds like the watchword and countersign of the younger generation. But facts are facts.

Gen X here, so I'm not spouting a generational line (e.g., the Boomer line "don't trust anyone over 30"). That said, it does seem rather unfair to kids who toe the party line - study hard, get good grades, borrow lots of student loans, graduate from a good school, get a good job, slave for "the man" etc... all by their mid-to-late-20s, then are expected to get married, have kids, raise those kids to adulthood over the next 30 years, while still slaving for "the man", paying off student loans, paying higher and higher taxes, engaging in expected levels of consumption (to keep the economy going, of course), etc.... Only to finally get to retirement in their early-60s, without their youth (and in some cases health) to enjoy life? Even then, the Government looks with hungry eyes at any accumulated savings in order to feed its ever-growing bureaucracy.

Looking at all that, do you really have to wonder why Millennials question the wisdom of following the same path? While it may sound cynical/selfish, many are asking "what's in it for me?" This isn't a bad question to ask about most things in life, unless one is feeling charitable/generous.

Kind of reminds me of this scene from Good Will Hunting:

 

[MichaelB]

Raising kids is hard work and extremely expensive. The costs are largely borne by the parents, but society as a whole benefits. Many of the younger generation(s) have simply decided to skip the hard work and expense in favor of amusing themselves (or whatever). This did not work out so well for Japan.

Sounds like the watchword and countersign of the younger generation. But facts are facts.

What are the facts? Slower population growth is associated with a rising standard of living. Are millennials having fewer children, or are they having children at a later age than their parents? The real decline in the US birth rates is seen in teens and unmarried young women, while in women over 30 it's rising.

Appreciate everyone's effort to keep a friendly tone in what often ends up being a difficult subject to discuss.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

What are the facts? Slower population growth is associated with a rising standard of living. Are millennials having fewer children, or are they having children at a later age than their parents? The real decline in the US birth rates is seen in teens and unmarried young women, while in women over 30 it's rising.

Appreciate everyone's effort to keep a friendly tone in what often ends up being a difficult subject to discuss.

Didn't take his comments personally. On a related note, we don't want our society to end up like the one in Idiocracy.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Didn't take his comments personally. On a related note, we don't want our society to end up like the one in Idiocracy.

I loved that movie. It is scary how much of it seems to be not that far from the truth.

 

[eytonxav]

Agreed... but kids these days need to stay off my lawn.

Nash, you are way too young to be playing that card

 

[imoldernu]

You are the "Silent Generation" according to Wikipedia.

Generation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you Joe. So good to be acknowledged. Was worried

Anyway, here's what I have to say about that:

 

[jIMOh]

Proverb of the Mexican fisherman comes to mind

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

“Millions – then what?”

The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”