Nanny state rant

[ExFlyBoy5]

Have heard that, around here, refrigerators and freezers require GFCI in new construction. That's crazy!

The newest thing I have seen in our neck of the woods is that new homes have to have sprinkler systems. I don't know how much that costs, but it can't be too cheap.

 

[Gumby]

If the refrigerator is built in and the outlet is behind it, how does one reset if it trips?

We have a built in Sub-Zero. The compressor sits in an accessible space above the fridge, and that's where the outlet and plug are also located.

 

[skyking1]

I personally have not had any of our 1995 GFCI outlets trip out without a reason. I would not expect an increase in the chances of an uncommanded breaker trip.
If the thing you are plugging in has a ground fault, you could be shocked while plugging it in. The GFCI prevents that kind of shock. That is the philosophy in a nutshell.
they extended that protection to major appliances.
This is the sort of progression that happens with safety.
The NEC used to allow aluminum wiring in homes, for example. That was a nightmare with connections warming up and heat cycling until they got loose, and hotter and hotter. I had to chase that problem once, I am glad they don't do that anymore.

 

[skyking1]

If the refrigerator is built in and the outlet is behind it, how does one reset if it trips?

the new code has the GFCI breaker, not an outlet.

 

[Fermion]

There are a lot of other rather funny safety rules. Take the stair lighting situation. You have to have the ability to turn on and off a light for the stairs at both the top and bottom, which usually means a 3 way switch at both ends (more wiring).

But...they do allow you to have two separate lights, one controlled at each end of the stairs with a normal on/off switch.

So the theory is, you turn on the light at the bottom of the stairs, climb the stairs, turn on the upper light, walk back down the stairs, turn off the lower light, then walk back up the stairs and finally turn off the upper light.

 

[spncity]

So the theory is, you turn on the light at the bottom of the stairs, climb the stairs, turn on the upper light, walk back down the stairs, turn off the lower light, then walk back up the stairs and finally turn off the upper light.

Built in exercise and double the chance of falling on the stairs~!

 

[MichaelB]

the new code has the GFCI breaker, not an outlet.

That’s a relief.

 

[Midpack]

Just found out that GFCI is now required for clothes dryers (2020 code).

The 30 amp GFCI breaker is $125!

But the next time I hear a politician in this state bemoan the high cost of housing, and housing crisis, and other similar things, I am going to think about this breaker and the myriad of other things that minutely increase safety but also add to unaffordability of new homes.

And get off my lawn?

Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue Metro home values have gone up by 10% from last year to $759,119. From Seattle Housing Market: Prices, Trends, Forecast 2022-2023 dated Jan 11, 2023

 

[skyking1]

 

[Walt34]

Our dryer runs on natural gas.

Ours does too, as does the stove and the water heater, but now the nannies are wanting to ban those too. But they won't pay for the higher costs.

 

[pb4uski]

If the refrigerator is built in and the outlet is behind it, how does one reset if it trips?

For a built-in refrigerator I would think you would not want a GFI outlet for the very reason that you mention, but rather a GFI breaker at the breaker box for the circuit that the built-in refrigerator is on (which might well be a separate circuit serving only the built-in refirgerator).

But again, I'm not an electrician.

 

[Koolau]

Three times, in the past 15 years, IIRC. Once to replace the dryer, once to install a new floor and once to access the drain panel located behind the dryer... Honest !

Every time we leave for summer sabbatical. So once a year though YMMV.

 

[Koolau]

- and some jurisdictions have banned gas. The city of Berkeley, a few miles down the road from where I live, has banned natural gas hook-ups in new buildings. I believe some other cities have done the same.

When I was a kid, my Mum hung out the washing on a long line. It was a plastic covered wire, which made a great antenna for my crystal set!

I guess the CPSC is looking into banning gas stoves - because of supposed emissions inside homes. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/gas-stove-ban-proposal-when-and-why-rcna65078

I wonder who did THAT study.

I wonder if they realize that most cooking emissions are from, uh, cooking - not gas burning. Call me paranoid but I wonder if this isn't backdoor FF reduction. Enquiring minds want to know but YMMV.

 

[athena53]

I just ran into the nanny State here and it's a lot more expensive than the GFI in the OP.

I'm having 3 VERY tall windows replaced- they face the lake behind the house and to get to them you walk down 5 steps to a landing under the first two and then down a second step to another landing that leads to a second set of stairs the rest of the way into the basement. All 3, of course, are level with each other. The first two are required to be tempered glass because they're less than 6 feet off the floor. They start 6" below my shoulders. I could not go crashing through those windows if I wanted to. I can get away with regular glass on the third- that dropped the price by $977. Protecting us from ourselves, indeed.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

for clarity this is mandated by the NEC, the National Electrical Code
We are all stuck with that one.

But isn't it the case that the NEC is developed by the NFPA, which is non-government, non-profit organization? Almost all governments choose to adopt this code, but they could choose NOT to adopt it.

 

[Chuckanut]

Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue Metro home values have gone up by 10% from last year to $759,119. From Seattle Housing Market: Prices, Trends, Forecast 2022-2023 dated Jan 11, 2023

Sadly, just about every person I know who has adult children in their 20's to 40's has at least one child who has left this area because they can't afford to purchase even a starter home where they grew up.

 

[aaronc879]

Just found out that GFCI is now required for clothes dryers (2020 code).

The 30 amp GFCI breaker is $125!

Note that you are not required to have this if the dryer is hard wired into the system, but who does that? Still, how many times do you unplug your dryer? Be honest!

It was already bad enough having to use the $50 arc fault/gfci combo breakers (20) for all the other outlets, but I had thought maybe we would at least be able to use one of the regular cheap ones for the dryer.

I think I read there has been a grand total of 1 death in the last decade from someone plugging in a dryer, and that was a total misswired system.

/rant off

Never. Not a single time in my life have I plugged in or unplugged a dryer. Why would you?

 

[REWahoo]

Never. Not a single time in my life have I plugged in or unplugged a dryer. Why would you?

I can think of four occasions:

1. To clean behind/under it
2. To clean out the dryer vent
3. To repair it
4. To replace it

EDIT: Thought of one more

5. When a nearby lightning strike to the transformer feeding your house causes a power surge and burns the dryer cord in half.

 

[aaronc879]

I can think of four occasions:

1. To clean behind/under it
2. To clean out the dryer vent
3. To repair it
4. To replace it

Never done any of those myself. #3 and #4 would be done by pros and 1&2 I just have never done.

 

[REWahoo]

Never done any of those myself. #3 and #4 would be done by pros and 1&2 I just have never done.

You need to live a little.

 

[Fermion]

I forgot about the tempered window requirement thing. We also had to do that for two of our windows, which increased the price of those pretty substantially.

It all sounds minor, and it kind of is, but added up, it drives up the cost of housing. $125, $300, $200, $100, $800, pretty soon you are into the $10,000 range and have increased the safety of the house maybe a percent or two but also put it that much more out of the range of affordability of some.

Houses in this area are more along the lines of $250,000 average price, so $10,000 would be a fair percentage.

 

[ownyourfuture]

Do not resist, they know what's best for you

 

[Chuckanut]

Never done any of those myself. #3 and #4 would be done by pros and 1&2 I just have never done.

I trust your fire insurance is paid up.

 

[Chuckanut]

The window requirement story reminds me of my teaching days when I had to accumulate 150 clock hours of classes every 5 years to renew my certificate. The main beneficiaries of this requirement were the Schools of Education that charged anywhere from 30 to 120 dollars for each clock hour. I remember one guy got 15 clock hours while hiking around in Oregon for a week in the summer while taking a class to update his natural science teaching skills He never taught a day of natural science or any other science, but it was a fun way to meet the standard.

No doubt the replacement window industry guys and gals made a few extra boat payments thanks to you.

 

[GalaxyBoy]

NFPA Codes and Standards are developed by committees consisting of members from various categories, such as manufacturers, code officials, end users, etc., and the standards are then voted on by the membership. Well, those members in attendance at the convention. Then they have to be adopted by the local jurisdiction, which could be a state, a county, a city, or whatever is legal in your area. These authorities often make amendments to a given standard, although not usually much is done to the NEC. And it can be years after a new NFPA code or standard is published before it's adopted. Here in Virginia, the state codes were updated every three years, and since the NEC is on a three-year cycle at NFPA, it can be six years or more before an edition becomes effective. Also bear in mind that it's rare for a new requirement to be applied to existing buildings (I think the OP was talking about new construction).

Ugh. All this is making me flash back to my years as an engineer who dealt building codes and NFPA standards daily.