Nanny state rant

[Walt34]

Growing up, our house did have oil fired hot water heat (with the big old radiators, one under every single-pane window) but the water heater was natural gas. Go figure.

Back to oil fired hot water, IIRC the recovery rate was more than the rate that the water flowed through the water heater. So in theory, you could not run out of hot water. I think the smallest size oil nozzle was 0.65 gallons per hour or something like that (we're dealing with 50-year-old memory here so don't hold me to it) and that combined with the BTU rating of heating oil, which I have no idea what that is now, meant that you could run the shower for as long as you wanted and wouldn't run out of hot water until the oil ran out. Or something like that.

Edit to add: I'm sure one of the engineers here will "crunch the numbers" and let me know if I'm mistaken. I will concede that I may well be.

 

[Koolau]

Growing up, our house did have oil fired hot water heat (with the big old radiators, one under every single-pane window) but the water heater was natural gas. Go figure.

Back to oil fired hot water, IIRC the recovery rate was more than the rate that the water flowed through the water heater. So in theory, you could not run out of hot water. I think the smallest size oil nozzle was 0.65 gallons per hour or something like that (we're dealing with 50-year-old memory here so don't hold me to it) and that combined with the BTU rating of heating oil, which I have no idea what that is now, meant that you could run the shower for as long as you wanted and wouldn't run out of hot water until the oil ran out. Or something like that.

Edit to add: I'm sure one of the engineers here will "crunch the numbers" and let me know if I'm mistaken. I will concede that I may well be.

I credit our ca 1950 oil-fired steam radiators with my ability to sleep through just about anything. All night, those radiators banged and whistled. My dad had to add water to the system periodically or it would go dry and then the overheated furnace would fill the basement with smoke and run us out of the house. That happened twice as I was growing up.

My 65 year old memory is that our furnace had a 0.75 gph so a hot water heater with 0.65 gph would be overkill.

Heh, heh, no engineer, but a gallon of heating oil has a bit less than 140K btu/gallon. No idea what the efficiency is, but maybe 60%?? I'll let someone else do the math as YMMV.

 

[ls99]

Then installing an oil fired water heater might be easy if the plumbing isn't difficult. Waaaay back when, when I worked on water heaters, I ran into a few of those. The impressive thing about those was the "recovery rate" or how fast they could recover from hot water use. Nothing else at the time compared.

You could run out of hot water, but you had to work at it.

That might outweigh the disadvantages of oil fired hot water.

https://www.homedepot.com/s/oil%20fired%20water%20heaterr?NCNI-5

Not worth the hassle. Or the cost. House came with 80 Gal water heater tank. Even when DW was alive we never ran out of hot water.

BTW the Oil Furnece runs on .65 GPH nozzle. Around 86% efficiency measured two years ago.


My Monthly electric bill runs around $90.- +/_ . That is with running the Sauna 3 or 4 times a week.

 

[ncbill]

I credit our ca 1950 oil-fired steam radiators with my ability to sleep through just about anything. All night, those radiators banged and whistled. My dad had to add water to the system periodically or it would go dry and then the overheated furnace would fill the basement with smoke and run us out of the house. That happened twice as I was growing up.

My 65 year old memory is that our furnace had a 0.75 gph so a hot water heater with 0.65 gph would be overkill.

Heh, heh, no engineer, but a gallon of heating oil has a bit less than 140K btu/gallon. No idea what the efficiency is, but maybe 60%?? I'll let someone else do the math as YMMV.

The 1920s house where I grew up had a one-pipe steam radiator system.

From what I've read those were only 50-60% efficient.

And were they ever noisy, but our tomcat loved sleeping on top of the wooden radiator covers.

The boiler was originally coal-fired (coal chute in the driveway) then converted to natural gas in the 1960s.

No A/C when we moved in but after one summer with only an attic fan the parents added central A/C to the upstairs via the attic.

Boiler was cut apart with torches for removal when a later owner replaced it with a modern, forced-air system for the whole house.

 

[Sunset]

I grew up with oil heat (not hot water.) The biggest problem was that it did require a fair amount of maintenance. At least once/year, the oil jet had to be cleaned or replaced. Never found anything similar with gas but still a good idea to check for proper operation and possible soot buildup every year.

Oh the nice smell down in the basement by the oil furnace, and tapping on the 200 gallon oil tank ten feet away... great memories

 

[Sunset]

Don't induction stoves pose a risk for people with pacemakers? I tried to search for this but couldn't find a definitive answer. Possibly some people are affected.

I'm a natural gas fan. I cook with gas, I heat with gas, I make hot water with gas, and I dry clothes with gas. It used to be 1/2 the cost of electricity. I don't know where these people think all that electricity will come from. We are already overtasking our electrical grid. I heat my garage with an electric heater when working on projects. I am on an hourly plan. On Dec23rd, with nationwide weather related, systemwide problems, My electric bill for that one day alone was over $50! the next day was only a bit lower. I usually run under $5 per day when the garage heater is in use.

The issue is only the natural gas stoves, as there is no venting for the flame.
The furnace and dryer and waterheater all vent the fumes out of the house so there is no health risk.

 

[Koolau]

The issue is only the natural gas stoves, as there is no venting for the flame.
The furnace and dryer and waterheater all vent the fumes out of the house so there is no health risk.

Actually there are now a number of gas heaters which do not vent. In essence, they are 100% efficient as all the heat (and burned fuel) go into the house. We had two of these in our house on the mainland. They were propane rather than NatGas. The same is true of the wick-type kerosene heaters. We used these for a whole winter with no ill effects, ill effects, ill effects...

 

[pb4uski]

I thought that they were phasing out those vent-free gas and propane heaters. While I suspect that they are safe enough, I'll poke a hole in the exterior wall and get fresh air intake and exhaust.

 

[Gumby]

We have a large restaurant style vent hood over our natural gas stove top. That thing will really move some air when it is on the highest setting. No risk of indoor air pollution here.

 

[Philliefan33]

The issue is only the natural gas stoves, as there is no venting for the flame.

The furnace and dryer and waterheater all vent the fumes out of the house so there is no health risk.

So is the answer to always run the range hood (actually vented to exterior, not just taking air from the cooking surface and blowing it up at your head)?

 

[skyking1]

My sister's 1920 sandstone farm house was two stories on a full basement, ~40' square. The walls were 18" thick, 6" inside and outside stones with a 6" air gap for insulation.
It had a central coal fired furnace that also accepted firewood. You could fill the coal feeder and then feed wood, and the auger would feed coal overnight after the wood burned down. I really miss that miserable dirty mess
The farm was 21 acres of really old orchard that we took out and replaced with berries, and we had an endless supply of hardwood to burn in it.

 

[Koolau]

I thought that they were phasing out those vent-free gas and propane heaters. While I suspect that they are safe enough, I'll poke a hole in the exterior wall and get fresh air intake and exhaust.

I suppose it's possible "they" (the Nanny state?) are phasing out vent-free. We just never had any issues with either type (gas or kerosene) and our house was relatively tight - especially after replacing 17 windows. If you DO vent such a stove, you lose most of the heat, so better to start with a heater that is intended to be vented.

 

[ls99]

We have a large restaurant style vent hood over our natural gas stove top. That thing will really move some air when it is on the highest setting. No risk of indoor air pollution here.

IIRC you live in an old house. I suppose there are plenty of leaks for make up air. And a good furnace to heat the incoming cold air in the winter.

 

[Koolau]

So is the answer to always run the range hood (actually vented to exterior, not just taking air from the cooking surface and blowing it up at your head)?

"Partial vacuum sources" such as a hood vents create very little "directionality" in air flow. However, they do w*rk on the principle that hot air rises - thus allowing capture within a hood. If you have your head over the cooking, no doubt you're in the line of fire of the cooking "gasses."



From what I've heard (sources "outside" the anti-gas Nannys) the true issue is not gas "fumes" (which are C02 and water vapor with traces of NOx) but cooking odors and smoke. THOSE probably should be vented if possible.

I found a dozen articles "condemning" gas stoves as a major source of CH4 (methane pollution.) True enough, if a stove leaks, it vents methane to the atmosphere - but it doesn't do that when it's lit. But every article referenced the same data - which was skimpy and extrapolated beyond any reasonable scientific perspective. (Worse than 500,000 cars, etc.)

One article I read stated that electric stoves didn't emit greenhouse gasses. I think that's when I quit reading but YMMV.

At some point, it would be nice if we all would just agree that humans, living their lives, create pollution and we've gotten that level down to a very small level by using gas stoves instead of dried sticks, leaves and animal dung for cooking. What's that old song? "Accentuate, the positive. Eliminate the negative. Latch on to the affirmative."

IOW, we've come a long way. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because cooking with gas is not perfect (heh, heh, neither is electric) but YMMV.

 

[ls99]

So much for the old expression, "now we're cooking with gas"

 

[JoeWras]

"Now we're cooking with magnetism." Yep, just not the same. [emoji3]

 

[Koolau]

"Now we're cooking with magnetism." Yep, just not the same. [emoji3]

It's, it's, it's,...Magic!

 

[JoeWras]

Well, I actually want to try induction. Not a full cooktop, but maybe a portable one burner.

DW asked for a whistle kettle for Christmas and I instead got an electric kettle that uses induction. The idea was efficiency because the only burner on our halogen cooktop that has decent power is large and wasteful.

At first she was a bit disappointed. Now she loves the thing more than me. It's fast!

We considered converting to gas but it was going to be a pain in drywall work. Although I still like gas best, I've come around to halogen radiant and I'm willing to give induction a try.

 

[RobbieB]

Yes, they are quick. I timed a quart of tap water in the kettle on the medium element of my GE Profile induction, boil in under 2 minutes.

 

[mpeirce]

Yes, they are quick. I timed a quart of tap water in the kettle on the medium element of my GE Profile induction, boil in under 2 minutes.

Definitely! Our Bosch has some sort of turbo mode that boils water very fast. Faster than any stove (gas or traditional electric) we’ve ever had.

It’s also very responsive. I like it a lot.

The only downside is I’ve left it on a couple of times. It won’t start a fire from something like a bag on a hot burner, but a pan will stay hot and scorch. I killed one nonstick pan that way.

 

[Piper20]

We’ve had a slide in GE induction since 2013. Works great so far no problems.

 

[youbet]

Fortunately, the controls are all on the upper back of the stove so it's difficult to accidentally turn on an element.

Geezer-guys like us sometimes struggle to think as creatively as we did decades ago. But, really, a creative mind can think up many ways to make accidentally turning on an element easy and likely. Now that you've planted the suggestive seed, I'll probably come up with a way yet this evening!

 

[Sunset]

So is the answer to always run the range hood (actually vented to exterior, not just taking air from the cooking surface and blowing it up at your head)?

Yes.

 

[Sunset]

.....
From what I've heard (sources "outside" the anti-gas Nannys) the true issue is not gas "fumes" (which are C02 and water vapor with traces of NOx) but cooking odors and smoke. THOSE probably should be vented if possible.

.....

At some point, it would be nice if we all would just agree that humans, living their lives, create pollution and we've gotten that level down to a very small level by using gas stoves instead of dried sticks, leaves and animal dung for cooking. .....

IOW, we've come a long way. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because cooking with gas is not perfect (heh, heh, neither is electric) but YMMV.

I'm not worried about the environment when using my gas stove, except for the environment inside the house as that is what is affected and I breathe.

It's when I read about the particles in the gas that get spit out when burning, which also happens when cooking on any stove. Inhaling the particles is bad. I'll probably use my air vent more often to solve that.

All this pales in comparison to when at the cabin and we light the fireplace or wood stove and burn wood. At that point we are really great polluters, returning 100 yr old sequestered carbon to the air. But it looks nice

 

[Andre1969]

Just to reinforce my childhood fears of gas stoves/heating...I was watching an old episode of "The Fugitive" early this morning. Richard Kimble is at a Choke&Puke, and the stove catches on fire. Nice guy that he is, he rushes back to try and help the owner put it out, and the gas stove blows up and puts him in the hospital, with a bump on his head, and amnesia!

Anyway, in the hospital, Kimble got fingerprinted, and Lt. Gerard damn near caught him at the end! So, ban those gas stoves, says I. Nothing but trouble!