Our shameless culture

[saluki9]

I can't speak for the British Navy, but they don't need my help. I'll stick to what I know of the U.S. Navy.


All those POWs had to do was exactly what they did. They sat tight, followed their code of conduct, and waited for the next step. No one faults them for any video or documents or statements that were obtained under duress.

Apparently you have not been paying attention to the news from Britain. Plenty of people of unhappy with the behavior of these sailors.

One of many articles http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1629563.ece

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

...the military is supposed to resist. But there's a time & place for it. That resistance has to have a purpose and it doesn't work if you or your shipmates are dead. Self-respect and testosterone poisoning have nothing to do with it.

When I was first in the Army as a boy, somehow I thought that a POW should spit in their eye and so forth. In the course of my last assignment, I learned what the POWs really went through and slowly it dawned that it wasn't as easy as that. The most that we can reasonably request of a POW is that they deny the enemy intelligence while it is still useful. They are in no position to carry on the war by themselves.

It is possible that the British public and press has forgotten what war is really like and is thinking with their gonads. Jingoism is dangerous. Engage brain before putting foot in mouth.

 

[Nords]

Apparently you have not been paying attention to the news from Britain. Plenty of people of unhappy with the behavior of these sailors.

Actually I have been reading the news (it's all over Reuters, too) and I think most of the uproar is about the MoD giving the POWs explicit permission to sell their stories to the tabloids.

I don't put much stock in behavior under duress & stress, nor should those who've never been in a similar situation.

I hope that the stalkerazzi money goes straight to charity.

 

[saluki9]

I hope that the stalkerazzi money goes straight to charity.

Just heard on the news that the govt has changed their mind and they are no longer able to sell their story.

 

[Nords]

Just heard on the news that the govt has changed their mind and they are no longer able to sell their story.

Looks like those intrepid leaders & civil servants of the MoD are getting a little SERE training of their own!

 

[eridanus]

The tough guys on this thread should enlist. It's obvious they can take on all the insurgents by themselves with a little help from S&W.

 

[Mwsinron]

I have someone I talk with who served in infantry combat. He was laughing at the people who think the soldiers/marines who should have put up a better "fight" while being captive. Until you have been captured and put into the same position maybe you should keep your "****ing" mouth shut as he put it. I tend to agree. Brave talk is so much easier to do when you aren't the one staring down the barrel. This is the same young man who basically **** himself when being mortared in Iraq.

 

[samclem]

I don't think press pieces like this one are very helpful--we should save our outrage for the Iranians who were 100% in the wrong.

The MoD is surely taking a hard look at how the captives behaved, as well as the training they received. Remember that the US did not have an official Code of Conduct until after some Americans were perceived to have behaved in a less than honorable manner under some incredibly brutal North Korean conditions. And now the Code of Conduct is something that gets a lot of attention in all US military training.

I don't know how the captives came to behave the wy they did, but there will be lessons learned. I have worked with many British officers and some enlisted personnel. I believe the sense of personal and national honor is very much alive with that bunch. Make a bawdy joke about the queen if you want to test this.

 

[Fireup2020]

I do not think they should be allowed to sell their stories - ok - at least not for YEARS after this mess is over. Nor should they be praised as heroes or condemned for treason.

 

[deserat]

I go back to Nords saying they should have resisted beforehand - the poster who said that not having enough 'firepower' for where they were and what they were doing was right in my estimation and that situation helped start this incident down the road. As for when they were captured - yes, if someone had a gun at my head, I'd probably comply, while still keeping in mind the Code of Conduct - again, Nords posting of Stockdale's (phenomenal man, if you read about him and his later forays into philosophy and ethics) idea of 'price of the day' is a good one.

There's another book out that was written about the US Iranian hostages and how they fared - they were civilians, so not having the benefit of training in a Code of Conduct like philosophy might have made some of their experiences more difficult. I don't remember the title, but it's on my list of 'to read...'

Deserat

 

[REWahoo]

I'm late in arriving to this discussion, but it is interesting to observe the difference in tone in the posts by those who have military backgrounds and those who do not.

As the native American saying goes, "Before I judge a man, let me first walk a mile in his moccasins."

 

[saluki9]

I'm late in arriving to this discussion, but it is interesting to observe the difference in tone in the posts by those who have military backgrounds and those who do not.

As the native American saying goes, "Before I judge a man, let me first walk a mile in his moccasins."

I can point you to plenty of people in uniform (all of them having served in combat) who find their actions totally inexcusable and disgusting.

Depsite what some believe, there are one or two other people who have made a career in the military besides Nords. My best friend from highschool has made a career in the Marines (including 2 tours in Iraq) his comments when I asked him about this over the weekend.

1. Why get taken alive?

2. They should line the F***ing C***suckers up and shoot them as traitors

Thankfully our military isn't all made up of pacifists

 

[saluki9]

I have someone I talk with who served in infantry combat. He was laughing at the people who think the soldiers/marines who should have put up a better "fight" while being captive. Until you have been captured and put into the same position maybe you should keep your "****ing" mouth shut as he put it. I tend to agree. Brave talk is so much easier to do when you aren't the one staring down the barrel. This is the same young man who basically **** himself when being mortared in Iraq.

Nobody here (at least that I have seen) suggested they put up a better fight AFTER they were taken prisoner. It would appear as though they didn't put up ANY resistance whatsoever to the demands the iranians put on them.

 

[Nords]

I can point you to plenty of people in uniform (all of them having served in combat) who find their actions totally inexcusable and disgusting.
Depsite what some believe, there are one or two other people who have made a career in the military besides Nords. My best friend from highschool has made a career in the Marines (including 2 tours in Iraq) his comments when I asked him about this over the weekend.
1. Why get taken alive?
2. They should line the F***ing C***suckers up and shoot them as traitors

I think I went to college with that guy!

I bet he was a lot of fun during the mission briefings...

 

[chinaco]

... They're no John McCain.

The tone of the hyperbole is outside of the pail.

It is really tempting to take the bait.

Those young men found themselves in a bad situation due to some mistakes. They were taken into a country where life is cheap and torture is the main activity of the day.

When you deride these young men... you insult all of us who have served.

 

[mb]

Well I was POW and I didn't break Of course I was 8 and it was in my backyard

MB

 

[Mwsinron]

I can point you to plenty of people in uniform (all of them having served in combat) who find their actions totally inexcusable and disgusting.

Depsite what some believe, there are one or two other people who have made a career in the military besides Nords. My best friend from highschool has made a career in the Marines (including 2 tours in Iraq) his comments when I asked him about this over the weekend.

1. Why get taken alive?

2. They should line the F***ing C***suckers up and shoot them as traitors

Thankfully our military isn't all made up of pacifists

Really? and you haven't served a lick but being mugged as a child. Wow you are a plethora of knowledge. Lucky for those Iranians you werent captured boy they would be in trouble.

 

[saluki9]

Well I was POW and I didn't break Of course I was 8 and it was in my backyard

MB

That's because your friends didn't attach a car battery to your nuts. I hear that is usually the one that does it. Althoug if you read that CIA interogation manual that was leaked a couple years ago they claim the best is dry firing an empty gun next to their head.

 

[saluki9]

I think I went to college with that guy!

I bet he was a lot of fun during the mission briefings...

Knowing him for most of his life I was always afraid he would get his hands on automatic weapons. Thankfully the Marine Corps provides an outlet for people like him (and pay to go along with it) How about that!

Thankfully they brought him home and he wants to go back to the sandbox. Some people just have a spirit for fighting.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

one can only hope for his comrades in arms that god-forbid ever given a choice between publicly humiliating himself or taking a chance with the lives of his brothers in arms that he will choose a little military hazing instead of being the c***sucking stud he thinks he is.

Knowing him for most of his life I was always afraid he would get his hands on automatic weapons.

if it wasn't for the arrogance of your argument you might not be blinded to the fact that you already have your finger on the problem.

 

[dex]

Two points that I think are important in this particular situation.

But first let me say that I do not think a service person should have to endure torture for meaningless ideals. The Geneva Conventions should be followed and aid and information should not be given to the enemy.

In this instance there are two issues:
First is that we need to see this situation from the Iranian point of view desires and that is similar to what Osama has said: The west is weak and will not make the sacrifices to win. The Iranians are making that point to their armed forces, leaders and people.
The article makes the point also:
"Others may increasingly despise us, but we ourselves seem mostly content with what we have become, even if a few remain uneasy about our behaviour. Those who preferred us as we used to be had better take note: the Lion has turned into a fat and fearful Rabbit, and it does not seem to mind."

This may apply to the USA (from the enemy's point of view). It may be also be applied to the USA depending upon what happens in Iraq. The results is that it may enbolden our enemies.

The other point is more difficlut for me to make as I do not have all the details but can only raise questions and infer from the article it is along the line of: Was their actions appropriate for the situation?

 

[bright eyed]

Thankfully our military isn't all made up of pacifists

1) i hope your friend doesn't get promoted into serious decision making roles in the military, and if so, i'm even more concerned than i already was about all this!

2) i don't think anyone was being pacifist - Nords and others were just invoking thoughtfulness and strategy - not cowboy vigilantism - there were also international relations to consider - you don't just fire when you know it could start a(nother) gigantic war...

3) it seems your brain and your pocketbook are well connected - now lets work on that connection w/ your nads...

Albert Einstein said that you can't both prepare for and prevent war...ponder that for a while...

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

My best friend from highschool has made a career in the Marines (including 2 tours in Iraq) his comments when I asked him about this over the weekend.
1. Why get taken alive?
2. They should line the F***ing C***suckers up and shoot them as traitors

Thankfully our military isn't all made up of pacifists

I don't think the issue is pacifism in the military. We need men like your buddy. ('We' meaning western civilization.) We need tigers. And we have them. No matter what is said in the hostile foreign press, most of our adversaries know damn well that we've got pit bulls and we will let slip those dogs of war when necessary. Unfortunately, they also know how to exploit our weaknesses.

A Canadian journalist wrote a few years ago that "A liberal society cannot be defended by herbivores." (An interesting public comment from a Canadian during a Liberal administration.)

This one is interesting:

Albert Einstein said that you can't both prepare for and prevent war...ponder that for a while...

All wars can't be prevented, and you won't prevent any war by not being prepared. It is a devilish dilemma.

A historian I read in high school once said that civilizations fall when they stop making appropriate responses to challenges. That made a big impression on me.

 

[chinaco]

1) i hope your friend doesn't get promoted into serious decision making roles in the military, and if so, i'm even more concerned than i already was about all this!

I doubt that would happen. If he actually made that sort of vitriolic rant in public... He will naturally be limited in any upward mobilty as a leader. The only people who would say "line them up and shoot them as traitors" are:

- A 20 year old that has had too much to drink running his mouth. (Foolishness of youth.)
- Or a thoughtless fool.
- Or someone who has a f#%$@-up slant on life that is not the norm.

I ask you... Is this the type of leader you would follow?


I am a former U.S. Marine. I do not know the person you are talking about that made those comments... But I would suspect that if we all met him. We would understand why those word emanated from his mouth. One simple question... Is this someone whose opinion you would respect in any other matter in life?

 

[samclem]

Albert Einstein said that you can't both prepare for and prevent war...ponder that for a while...

I've pondered--it is idiotic.

How about this: "Noted historian and ethicist James Bartlesby said ' I'm not a physicist, but I believe neutrons stick to protons through the use of velcro'."

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will do the plowing for those who do not.