Personal Windmill, anyone seen this?

[Midpack]

The economics are highly questionable, it will take a long time but it will pay off. Sort of like buying a Prius, it takes forever to breakeven on total ownership costs, but it could if the car lasts long enough (10-15 years). I feel an obligation to conserve, so I am buying a Prius for that reason, not because the economics work.

Interestingly, if a few of us have personal wind turbines it could save those owners some money. But if all of us have personal wind turbines it will actually cost us more due to the intermittant nature of wind power unless we're all willing to do without power (seems highly unlikely) when wind power isn't generating. That's the big fallacy with wind and solar, they can never be more than a % of our total power generation (most of what I have seen suggests about 10% max) - we must have substantial non-intermittant sources. clifp's thread on Sustainable Energy explains yet again why this is inescapable.

 

[ERD50]

ERD50

I like it because:

....

-acquiring something like this would probably promote research into future developments which would be even better, reducing the need for subsidies...again in the future.

Also note that with the installation of this device or one like it, you are reducing your electric bill by the marginal rate, {our} highest marginal rate, is more like 26 cents.

First, I'd like to clarify that my initial response was not because any one person was so positive about this thing, it was because of the number of positive responses. That leads to the problems I outlined (govt responds with subsidies, regardless of the underlying validity), and my response. So, on to your specifics...

R&D and future improvements: Since you study these things, maybe you can tell me about this. How much improvement can we reasonably expect? It seems to me that generators and propellers are very mature technology, with plenty of motivation for higher efficiencies from existing uses. I wouldn't think that this application would spur much R&D over and above that. Also, how close to theoretical efficiencies are these now? I find that people often overlook that - R&D can make improvements, but they can't break the laws of physics. If these things are close to theoretical, then improvements will be small. I know generators are close to theoretical limits, with all the research into propellers of various sorts, I think we must be close to theoretical, or at least practical limits already.

There is another dark side to govt subsidies - since they are specific to specific technologies, they can also demotivate research into future developments of technologies that are not "blessed" by Congress. That is reducing competition, which reduces advancements. I can site a specific case where an new, promising technology had great difficulty getting funding because they fell between the cracks of how the laws were written, making it difficult for them to compete with subsidized technologies. And this new tech had other side benefits that were measurable and an environmental plus, but Congress didn't account for these side benefits in their bill. We all lose when that happens.

So, I would ask, if you are so against this device as step (though small) in the right direction, what alternatives do you offer? (I did not go back to the thread you referenced, I will when I get a chance...).

R

Well, it is a complex subject, and from what I've seen so far, that link has some good references - so I will defer to those documents. But two observations:

1) I don't need to have an alternative to recognize that something isn't a good idea. If it is questionable that this personal windmill can even produce more energy than it consumed in its production, it just does not sound like a meaningful solution. It might even be a small step in the wrong direction. I don't think our govt should be supporting that with subsidies (or using MY money to support someone's 'hobby', which this is to some people).

2) If you want a practical alternative, my first stab at it would be conservation. It would take an incredible amount of energy to produce enough renewable sources to replace 10% of our energy consumption, and there are environmental impacts to just about everything. But I think we could cut energy consumption by 10% far easier. A lot of it with absolutely zero expenditure (adjusting thermostats, telecommuting, eating less meat). Any power plant (renewable or otherwise) that is *not* built is an environmental win.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

Let's compare:
Option A: Buy this windmill and put it on my roof. That costs $4500 (minus any money the government tkes from others and gives to me for doing this).

Option B: Like option A, but I know that I could get about twice the productivity out of any windmill if I put it atop a 60 foot mast. And, my house isn't in a particularly breezy place, but if I put the same windmill in a place where the wind is more powerful, I'd get about 4 times the energy out of it. And, I know that the wind energy captured by my windmill is an direct relation to the size of the windmill's face area, and this goes up as a function of the square of the blade length, so an increase in the size of the windmill is going to lead to more captured energy for each dollar of material cost (or energy used to make the device). Then there's overhead and operating costs: when my little windmill breaks I have to spend money for a special house call from the service guy, who has to order the parts and then install them. Wouldn't it be more efficient to have lots of windmills located together so one repair guy could service them all, and so they could share common equipment (inverters, etc)? So--it sounds like the most efficient thing to do is to have a bigger windmill on a taller mast in a place where the wind is more constant and put a lot of these together so they can benefit from economies of scale--a windfarm. Yes, there are power transmission losses, but these are trivial compared to the advantages. Putting my $4500 toward a share in a windfarm helps the environment far more than sticking this giant spinning trash can lid on my roof. Can I get a 30% tax credit for this?

 

[FUEGO]

Putting my $4500 toward a share in a windfarm helps the environment far more than sticking this giant spinning trash can lid on my roof. Can I get a 30% tax credit for this?

I'd like to invest in a California wind farm where I put up zero dollars and receive even half of the revenues from the electricity I produce. The return on investment would be infinitesimal. We should all do this!

 

[bbbamI]

I'd like to have a pony.

 

[FUEGO]

I'd like to have a pony.

Why settle for a pony when you can have a unicorn? I mean as long as the government is giving it away for free...

 

[bbbamI]

Why settle for a pony when you can have a unicorn? I mean as long as the government is giving it away for free...

Sounds good to me...they are horny little devils.....

 

[FUEGO]

Sounds good to me...they are horny little devils.....

Sorry, the little devils don't qualify for this government incentive program. Only unicorns. The little devils lobby just didn't get the job done this legislative session.

 

[clifp]

Sounds good to me...they are horny little devils.....

LMAO and narrowly avoided the dreaded diet coke bath of the keyboard. I swear it just isn't safe to drink and read on this forum.

Shouldn't this response go in the what woman want thread?

 

[ERD50]

Putting my $4500 toward a share in a windfarm helps the environment far more than sticking this giant spinning trash can lid on my roof. Can I get a 30% tax credit for this?

Excellent point samclem, one I've pondered on, but never (IIRC) posted.

I'd agree that a wind farm (or solar panel farm for that matter) would have economies of scale and be far better net for the environment than small individual installs. A true environmentalist would be looking at the "return on energy" payback - how soon do you get the energy out of it that you put in (including the 'energy' of on-going maintenance). Obviously, big windmills catching the big winds on a mast will turn that over more quickly.

I also think you can use cost and economic payback as a reasonable proxy for the energy used to make something. For every material and component that is sold, the company has to get at least as much for it as they paid in energy to make that stuff. The price of a copper wire reflects how much energy it took to mine it, refine it, turn it into a wire, ship it to the customer, etc. Of course there are other costs in there, but I bet that energy is a big component of everything we buy, and probably more accurate on average than some complex "cradle-to-grave" study.

And, if we are going to use any tax dollars to support it, it would be much more fair to apply them to a utilities farm, where all the users would share in the tax subsidy, rather than giving it to an individual. That individual with a personal windmill benefits from the taxes that others pay. How is that fair?

I've read that on average, the grid wastes ~ 8% in transmission losses. Not really so bad considering.

BTW, I looked at their web site in more detail - wow, they are masters at phrasing something to sound more important than it is. Well, maybe not masters, they really should use the same numbers in their video as they do on the web page the video is on. I guess they can't decide if they should say this thing produces 2000 kWh/yr or 1580kWH/yr. Heck, what's 26.6% in the name of "environmentalism"?

I like the way they get to a "combined 30% savings!" - they include a 30-pack of CFLs (for an 1822KWh savings per year!). That's as much or more (depending which of their numbers you use) savings on your bill than what the windmill provides! Hmmmm, lets see, CFLs use about 1/4 the metered electricity (yes, clumsy wording, but important - I hope to post on that soon) as a bad old filament bulb. So to save 1822KWh, you would need to be using ~ 2400 KWh now. So, to "save" that much electricity you would need to have been running 30 separate 60W light bulbs for over 3.5 hours average each and every day. Whoah! Maybe they could just turn off some lights! What's the payback on that?

That's just the tip of the iceberg of funny-worded stuff on that page.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

I like the way they get to a "combined 30% savings!" - they include a 30-pack of CFLs (for an 1822KWh savings per year!). That's as much or more (depending which of their numbers you use) savings on your bill than what the windmill provides! Hmmmm, lets see, CFLs use about 1/4 the metered electricity (yes, clumsy wording, but important - I hope to post on that soon) as a bad old filament bulb. So to save 1822KWh, you would need to be using ~ 2400 KWh now. So, to "save" that much electricity you would need to have been running 30 separate 60W light bulbs for over 3.5 hours average each and every day. Whoah! Maybe they could just turn off some lights! What's the payback on that?

That is laugh-out-loud funny.

I should go buy about 200 CFL bulbs. According to their math I'd then save more power than we typically use and I guess we'll get a check from the electric company. Oh, wait, the fine print says I have to screw them in and turn them on in order to save the energy. Okay, no problem. I'll shine them on a solar panel and come out even farther ahead. Free energy--whee!

 

[ERD50]

Oh man, I'm gonna have to stop reading their stuff, it get's curiouser and curiouser - from their pdfs:

* What wind do I have?

80% of our actual wind resources in North America are well below 10mph,
90% of the time. Almost all traditional wind turbines require 8mph winds to cut in and start turning.

They keep making a big deal about it turning at low speeds. The above quote is interesting - I guess the data they used for their 2000kw/yr number excludes 80% of the country, because those numbers indicate wind speeds below 10mph at ~ 43%. To hit 90%, you need to include winds up to 21MPH in their table.

So, how important is that energy generated at low speeds? Hmmm, according to their table, less than 11% of the total annual energy is generated from winds 10 mph or lower (but it seems to take up 89% of their copy ). And over half of that "less than 10MPH" energy is generated between 7.77mph - 10mph. Gee, maybe that is why the "big boys" kick in at 8 MPH, huh?

*What is the warranty?
The HWT has a limited 5 year manufactures warranty and is designed for a 20 year life.

Sorry, I'm looking at a > 20 year payback (@ $0.10/kWH) before counting cost of the money and maintenance. Five year warranty and 20 year design life does not excite me.

*What happens in ice and snow?
The HWT is designed to handle the elements. Freezing rain will certainly slow the unit down and could keep the unit out of service until it thaws.

Great, now I have to go get on my roof to thaw the thing, or wait until Spring? And that will only get worse as these things counter Global Warming .

*Why does the system require a 12V battery?
The HWT requires a minimum of 1 standard auto battery which sits between the Smart box and the panel. The battery, referred to as the “bucket” is a system resource that allows the HWT to always capture the energy being generated by the turbine. The Smart Box inverter converts 12 volt to 110 and uses the battery as a storage and buffer device to regulate the energy being generated to your panel (especially in low winds speeds where the bucket is always being trickle charged).

Great, I gotta replace an auto battery every few years, and why does it need to trickle charge in low winds? I thought low winds were this things raison d'être?

And my tax dollars will go to support people buying these things, and years later they will be wondering when they are going to see *their* payback - and I will get zero (negative) payback. Yep, it gets me mad. And shouldn't it?


-ERD50

PS - anyone figure out how they come up with this? I see no back up data...

The HWT offers the lowest cost per kWh installed output in the industry.

I mean, wouldn't the wind farms be all over this? Easier than trucking those big things with the WIDE LOAD signs I see. And they could hire maint guys that are afraid of heights

 

[FUEGO]

I'm ashamed at you guys. Ashamed that no one has accused this company of tilting at windmills in a quixotic manner.

 

[Leonidas]

PS - anyone figure out how they come up with this? I see no back up data...

I think they pulled it straight out of their butts.

In the 90's we had some con man try and sell us a device that would find hidden drugs and money. If it worked we would save a lot of money that we spend buying, training and feeding all of the dogs we used. The salesman was some dude with a doctorate in physics who explained that the device was able to detect ions trailing off toward the sun by aligning static electricity fields. There were a lot of looks exchanged around the table after that explanation. None of us were physicists, but all of us knew a scam when we heard it. I called some scientists at NSTC to run it by them, and they laughed so hard I think they peed on themselves. The FBI busted these dudes, but not before they had already sold some of these things to police departments all across the country. Box of Dreams: How a too-good-to-be-true tool fooled drug warriors. - Reason Magazine

The roof top wind turbine guys aren't pulling quite as big a scam as the Quadro Tracker dudes, but they are playing games with the data and telling potential customers what they want to hear. It's a boondogle, a humbug, a means to separate fools from their money. It will produce electricity, but very few of their customers are going to be in a position to come close to getting their money's worth. Like Low Tech said, small windmills are fundamentally flawed.

 

[HFWR]

Not designed for "personal" use, but I like this design...

Quixotic Systems Inc.

Aerotecure International - Home

 

[eridanus]

If the TRUE costs were factored, the personal windmill might be a worthy challenger.

1) The cost of oil, including troop deployment.
2) The cost of the copper wire running to your house (assuming off-the-grid).
3) The cost of OPIC insurance.
4) The cost of illnesses from coal plants.
5) The cost of CO2 emissions.
etc., etc.

Until we know these, we can only take the guaranteed route -- use less, and the list clifp posted.


A PhD candidate in California examined all of these issues for transportation. It's an interesting study but not too surprising. An SUV is better than an empty bus.

"Life-cycle Environmental Inventory of Passenger Transportation in the United States"

 

[FUEGO]

A PhD candidate in California examined all of these issues for transportation. It's an interesting study but not too surprising. An SUV is better than an empty bus.

"Life-cycle Environmental Inventory of Passenger Transportation in the United States"

More California taxpayer dollars being put to good use on important research tasks??

 

[clifp]

If the TRUE costs were factored, the personal windmill might be a worthy challenger.

1) The cost of oil, including troop deployment.
2) The cost of the copper wire running to your house (assuming off-the-grid).
3) The cost of OPIC insurance.
4) The cost of illnesses from coal plants.
5) The cost of CO2 emissions.
etc., etc.

Until we know these, we can only take the guaranteed route -- use less, and the list clifp posted.


"

I don't know about the rest of your list but lets look at the cost associated with the two biggest. Lets say you allocate every single dollar the US spends on Defense $515 billion and divided by every drop of oil (20.8 million barrels/day * 365) =7.6 billion barrels. The defense tax works out to be less than $68 per barrel.

The worse, recent study of coal plants deaths (fund by an environmental group) was no higher than 22,000/year,most estimate where a fraction of that. If we value these at $8 million per death as the EPA does that is another $176 billion. (If you gave $176 Billion to the Gates foundation they could save a million lives easily).

There is about 2 trillion KWH of coal electricity generated each year. So add about $.09 KWH due to pollution deaths and illness.


The problem is virtually no renewable energy is currently competitive with oil less than $100-150 barrel without government subsidies. The personal windmill maybe price competitive when oil hits $300+ a barrel.

 

[ERD50]

The problem is virtually no renewable energy is currently competitive with oil less than $100-150 barrel without government subsidies. The personal windmill maybe price competitive when oil hits $300+ a barrel.

And don't forget that as the price of oil increases, the cost of producing those windmills will increase. There won't be cheap oil to fuel the mines, smelters, transportation of materials and just about every process step involved. It's not one-for-one, but it ain't nothin' either.

I recall people talking about the price of lettuce going up due to the price of oil, and lettuce isn't made of oil. It definitely has an effect.

edit/add - but I do agree with eradanus's premise - the true cost of oil, coal etc not included in it's price.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

If the TRUE costs were factored, the personal windmill might be a worthy challenger.

How? Even leaving out the whole issue of comparing wind power to oil/coal, this little whirlygig is not a "worthy challenger" to a larger windpower setup (better use of materials, better siting, taller masts, far lower cost per installed watt). It's might be a good partial power source for a windy off-the-grid location. That's a niche market-- probably more demand than for micro-hydro installations, but far less than for solar (PV). We can't really know just how bad this idea is until they come up with one set of performance stats.

 

[TromboneAl]

How I built an electricity producing wind turbine

[that is not my web site]

 

[REWahoo]

[that is not my web site]

Did you put this disclaimer in due to the "Click on a lady to learn how to meet her" ads?

 

[Leonidas]

How I built an electricity producing wind turbine

[that is not my web site]

I spent several minutes on that site before I figured out the guy did all that to recharge batteries for his laptop and such. I thought he was going to power up an AC for his trailer.

 

[NW-Bound]

If you don't want to fool around with these puny things, eBay has this refurbished 40KW windmill with its own 60ft tower for $45K. The blades are 17ft long! Why fool around?

PS. I wonder why they were disassembled, refurbished and sold? On the drive to LA from Phoenix the last 35 years, I have been driving by the thousands of windmills near Palm Springs. Every time, I saw many (>25%) not turning even in the fairly strong winds. It appears that they require quite a bit of maintenance, and the operator couldn't keep up.


40KW Wind Turbine Generator Refurbished with Tower - eBay (item 160345874989 end time Jul-11-09 07:19:28 PDT)

 

[ERD50]

I spent several minutes on that site before I figured out the guy did all that to recharge batteries for his laptop and such. I thought he was going to power up an AC for his trailer.

I don't know if he ever got around to figuring out how much power it actually delivered, I ended up skimming some of it. Interesting though.

Once you are talking about power away from the grid, economics and efficiency isn't that big a deal, he just wanted some power (I wonder how that thing compared to solar cells and a battery?).

This whole thread got me thinking again about a crazy idea I had - I've got six solar marker LED-lamps up to about 100' from "the grid". I didn't want to run power out there, got the cheap variety and they work OK. But a few overcast days in winter, with long nights, short days, and some trees now blocking one, they sometimes don't go very long into the night. So I was thinking about the cheapest possible wind powered device to just get a little extra juice into those things. I thought about little propellers, turbine blades and such, and figured they would get jammed with leaves, snow, ice, etc. Then I started thinking, what about a little pendulum like a wind chime rod? Those blow back/forth in a light breeze. Put a magnet on it, have a coil of wire around the magnet (that could be under a little shroud to keep the elements out)... I wonder if I could get enough current out of that slow swinging movement to charge the AA NiMH batteries in there?

My guess would be.... NO! But I should experiment someday.

-ERD50