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-Yogi Berra
Retirement vs Perfect Job
- Thread starter Roger_R
- Start date
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Yogi's right up there with DeGaul as my favorite financial advisor's.
Re: Thanks, Roger and, uh, Ted.
Probably about 250 of my posts have addressed this. I don't care to repeat them. My observations are based on an understanding of economics, and if you want to join the others in "dissing" this, that's your business.
Another of Yogi Berra's quotes is that "The future isn't what it used to be." Well, it won't be in the future, either, and those of us who are not smart enough to realize that, or at least to seriously consider the advice of people like Alan Greenspan and William Bernstein who do, are setting themself up for big problems in maintaining a decent standard of living in their old age.
P.S. Yogi is another native Missourian who doesn't hesitate to tell it like it is, and who, thankfully, did not decide to "retire early."
Probably about 250 of my posts have addressed this. I don't care to repeat them. My observations are based on an understanding of economics, and if you want to join the others in "dissing" this, that's your business.
Another of Yogi Berra's quotes is that "The future isn't what it used to be." Well, it won't be in the future, either, and those of us who are not smart enough to realize that, or at least to seriously consider the advice of people like Alan Greenspan and William Bernstein who do, are setting themself up for big problems in maintaining a decent standard of living in their old age.
P.S. Yogi is another native Missourian who doesn't hesitate to tell it like it is, and who, thankfully, did not decide to "retire early."
Re: Thanks, Roger and, uh, Ted.
As I understand the forecast, Mikey, the theory is that we'll have trillions of Baby Boomer dollars chasing ever-shrinking resources. (Ted, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting.)
Clearly this economic model glosses over the Chinese exporting business plan. And all of the "graying America" fuss ignores the effects of immigration & outsourcing. But let's presume that the future comes as Ted prognosticates it. (The risk of ignoring it could be fatal.)
For those not "lucky" enough to get a COLA'd pension (or to get their assets shot off earning one), an ER plan still has to account for inflation and large capital expenses-- rising healthcare premiums, new roof, new cars, weddings, fantasy vacations, and beer. ER portfolios based only on a budget forecast and a CPI are at best deluded and at worst dangerous.
Bud Hebeler's "Analyze Now!" website advocates an assumed 2% after-tax after-inflation return. So if you're withdrawing 4%/year, there's eventually gonna be a problem. He also capitalizes large expenses. OTOH his spreadsheets are iterated annually and based on the previous years' expenses so that the withdrawals don't stray far from the path. He knows a lot of impoverished "Social Security widows" so he's very conservative.
On the income side, I'd advocate a middle ground-- 3% and all reasonable projected capital expenses. I'd also work very hard at a healthy lifestyle or plan on raising healthcare costs at least 10-15% annually after age 50. If that isn't enough, then the ER lifestyle should also start out debt-free with home equity. If that STILL doesn't cut it then I'd plan part-time work or, even better, passive real-estate rental income.
But far greater gains can be made on the expense-reduction side. Dr. Phil has a dozen of his morbidly obese clients slashing their food budgets and their medical bills while losing tons of weight. That's an exaggeration for most of us, but anyone with a bodymass index higher than 27 can greatly reduce their healthcare costs by getting back down to fighting trim.
In ER, your time is simultaneously worthless (0$/hour) and your greatest asset. It can be used to take over all of those things we outsourced while working-- not just cleaning & yardwork, but also auto & home maintenance, financial management, tax preparation, shopping, and food shopping/preparation. It's very difficult to raise your ER income by 5-10% but it's very easy to lower your expenses by 20% while becoming healthier and wiser. (Then you can roam your neighborhood charging $25/hour to do THEIR outsourced tasks.) Instead of chasing consumer products with my dollars, I'll be simplifying and living frugally. The Dollar Stretcher website has tons of examples that frugal living is not deprivation. I think that sidesteps Ted's entire debate about a consumer-oriented lifestyle.
Other ER choices are mutually exclusive. It's probably difficult to raise more than two kids on ER, especially if you're planning to subsidize their college tuition. It's probably an overwhelming life change to move to a low-cost area (like Iowa?!?) or to give up a car for public transportation. (I don't watch much TV, but life without RoadRunner is not worth living.) It may also be difficult to be a perpetual traveller like the Terhorsts.
But every generation has solved just about every problem in unanticipated ways, and the graying society is not unsolveable. I don't know the solution but I'm going to keep overcapitalizing my retirement portfolio and underspending my budget just in case...
As I understand the forecast, Mikey, the theory is that we'll have trillions of Baby Boomer dollars chasing ever-shrinking resources. (Ted, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting.)
Clearly this economic model glosses over the Chinese exporting business plan. And all of the "graying America" fuss ignores the effects of immigration & outsourcing. But let's presume that the future comes as Ted prognosticates it. (The risk of ignoring it could be fatal.)
For those not "lucky" enough to get a COLA'd pension (or to get their assets shot off earning one), an ER plan still has to account for inflation and large capital expenses-- rising healthcare premiums, new roof, new cars, weddings, fantasy vacations, and beer. ER portfolios based only on a budget forecast and a CPI are at best deluded and at worst dangerous.
Bud Hebeler's "Analyze Now!" website advocates an assumed 2% after-tax after-inflation return. So if you're withdrawing 4%/year, there's eventually gonna be a problem. He also capitalizes large expenses. OTOH his spreadsheets are iterated annually and based on the previous years' expenses so that the withdrawals don't stray far from the path. He knows a lot of impoverished "Social Security widows" so he's very conservative.
On the income side, I'd advocate a middle ground-- 3% and all reasonable projected capital expenses. I'd also work very hard at a healthy lifestyle or plan on raising healthcare costs at least 10-15% annually after age 50. If that isn't enough, then the ER lifestyle should also start out debt-free with home equity. If that STILL doesn't cut it then I'd plan part-time work or, even better, passive real-estate rental income.
But far greater gains can be made on the expense-reduction side. Dr. Phil has a dozen of his morbidly obese clients slashing their food budgets and their medical bills while losing tons of weight. That's an exaggeration for most of us, but anyone with a bodymass index higher than 27 can greatly reduce their healthcare costs by getting back down to fighting trim.
In ER, your time is simultaneously worthless (0$/hour) and your greatest asset. It can be used to take over all of those things we outsourced while working-- not just cleaning & yardwork, but also auto & home maintenance, financial management, tax preparation, shopping, and food shopping/preparation. It's very difficult to raise your ER income by 5-10% but it's very easy to lower your expenses by 20% while becoming healthier and wiser. (Then you can roam your neighborhood charging $25/hour to do THEIR outsourced tasks.) Instead of chasing consumer products with my dollars, I'll be simplifying and living frugally. The Dollar Stretcher website has tons of examples that frugal living is not deprivation. I think that sidesteps Ted's entire debate about a consumer-oriented lifestyle.
Other ER choices are mutually exclusive. It's probably difficult to raise more than two kids on ER, especially if you're planning to subsidize their college tuition. It's probably an overwhelming life change to move to a low-cost area (like Iowa?!?) or to give up a car for public transportation. (I don't watch much TV, but life without RoadRunner is not worth living.) It may also be difficult to be a perpetual traveller like the Terhorsts.
But every generation has solved just about every problem in unanticipated ways, and the graying society is not unsolveable. I don't know the solution but I'm going to keep overcapitalizing my retirement portfolio and underspending my budget just in case...
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I agree with your thinking. Our (his and hers) combined portfolios are in the 2.5% range(div+interest) and with pensions cover expenses. The area between 2.5
and 4% SWR is lagniappe(overcapitalization?).
Unlike the Terhorst's, We love the swamp and don't plan to move.
And there is plenty of room to cut expenses if required - ie give up dryer sheets and line dry(another thread) plus other cuts if necessary.
and 4% SWR is lagniappe(overcapitalization?).
Unlike the Terhorst's, We love the swamp and don't plan to move.
And there is plenty of room to cut expenses if required - ie give up dryer sheets and line dry(another thread) plus other cuts if necessary.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I only use half the dryer lines when I air dry.
I took lint from the neighbors dryer and spun a line that I use to hang my clothes on. When I'm not drying clothes, I use the same line as a dog leash. Next year I plan on using the line to hang the taxman, thereby avoiding all future taxes.
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Like tire rotation - rotate places when you hang - the line will last longer. And it's ok to have a dryer and unopened box of dryer sheets as a back up - only as emergency reserve because electricity costs money.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Its funny because the house I bought last year has a huge clothes line "array" on the side yard. Little deck under it and a walkway to it, about 8 lines 20' long each, strung between two metal tee posts.
I'll actually probably give it a try when the weather warms up a little more - - its been in the 60's here lately. In the mid summer we get 90+ degree days with less than 30% humidity so by the time I was done hanging the laundry I would basically be able to start taking down dry clothes from where I started! Should be fun, i've never hung laundry out before.
To think...no electricity spent on drying, no extra A/C to offset the hot dryer, and NO DRYER SHEET USAGE AT ALL!!!
Nirvana.
I'll actually probably give it a try when the weather warms up a little more - - its been in the 60's here lately. In the mid summer we get 90+ degree days with less than 30% humidity so by the time I was done hanging the laundry I would basically be able to start taking down dry clothes from where I started! Should be fun, i've never hung laundry out before.
To think...no electricity spent on drying, no extra A/C to offset the hot dryer, and NO DRYER SHEET USAGE AT ALL!!!
Nirvana.
Ted and Roger, I want to thank you for expressing so succinctly something that I've been meaning to write here for a long time. I've been reading this board for a few months now, and it has made me very seriously re-think the morality of my goal of early retirement. What I have, rather belatedly I suppose, realized is that there is more to life than pursuing my own happiness. What I haven't quite figured out yet is what I should do with this realization.
It's interesting to see the reaction to someone challenging, in even this small way, the orthodoxy of this board. Didn't Dominguez coin the acronym FIRE? If I remember correctly the purpose of FI was to work at MORE important pursuits than your current grind, rather than less. Nords, if you have found ways to contribute more after retiring than before, then I don't see where you and Ted are in disagreement. Ted, may I ask, what ways are you finding to contribute in retirement (besides raising the level of discussion on this board, of course)?
I've been thinking this as well. Sometimes I wonder if I should give up on trying to retire in ten years when everyone else does, and quit work for the next ten years or so, and then go back to work when the stuff hits the fan.
Why on earth would you think it ignores that? It is not inevitable that the aging of America will cause massive problems, and there are some things that may counterbalance the demographic changes. No matter what you may think about trade or productivity gains or other economic developments, it is obvious without any economic theory that a large percentage of the population dropping out of the workforce will pose a problem for the country. In particular, I don't think increasing trade deficits or massive immigration will be "solutions" without problems of their own. The US has an enormous amount of assets that we can sell off to finance our current over-consumption, but it will be a tremendous shame to see us do so. While there is no need for today's children to inherit the massive foreign ownership that today's retirees are busy squandering, it would be terrible to see the US mortgaged to the hilt when my kids are grown.
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
After ten plus years of ER, there's nothing, I repeat nothing more important than my pursuit of happiness - I just hope I don't catch it. Adam Smith, Jefferson, Thoreau and Joe Cambell.
If make Lake Ponchartrain an honorary 'Walden Pond' and just sit there - that's my 'invisible hand', 'pursuit', and following 'my bliss'
The curmudgeon in me says everybody else can go pound sand - unless of course they post something new that looks like fun to 'pursue'.
My PC days are over and I'll take my lumps with the free market.
If make Lake Ponchartrain an honorary 'Walden Pond' and just sit there - that's my 'invisible hand', 'pursuit', and following 'my bliss'
The curmudgeon in me says everybody else can go pound sand - unless of course they post something new that looks like fun to 'pursue'.
My PC days are over and I'll take my lumps with the free market.
I think there may be a fundamental misunderstanding that is the root cause of much of this debate.
If you believe that working for a wage is your moral responsibility and that is one of the highest callings you can think of in life, then I think you should work. I don't understand your value system and I don't adopt it myself, but it is your value system. Live consistently with those values and I will respect you for that.
But if you choose to label me a "sinner" because I have diferent values, then I begin to lose respect for you. You don't know me. You don't know what I do with my time. You don't know what I value in life. When you condemn my life choices based on so little knowledge of me, it appears to be an unkowledgeable attack on my values in favor of yours. Not many people like that. You have the right to proselytize if you want, but I have the right to tell you what I think of your religion. If you want to convince me your religion is better than mine, I need to know more about it.
Maybe it would be more productive to discuss detail of your beliefs so we can find the root cause of our disagreements. Why do you think working is such a worthy pursuit that we should all do it even if we don't have to? Is it simply working for a wage that is worthy? Is it worthy to work for Enron or Tyco or Halliburton or Worldcom or . . . ? Or is it a specific type of work you feel is worthy? If I volunteer, is that worthy? or do I have to get paid? Is it as worthy to volunteer for the local Archaeology Society as it is to volunteer for Red Cross or Big Brothers, Big Sisters? When I choose to work at the polls (~16 hours for $85) is that acceptable behavior or should I go back after that mid-6 figure income? What about time spent with my dying mother, my greef-stricken father that pays nothing? How do I weigh that value against the value of making money? What about the additional quality time I spend with my wife? with neighbors? Does that count as a worthy expenditure of my time or should I only work for money?
As you can see, I'm not a convert to your religion . . . at least not yet. But let's try to tackle some of these questions and we might move closer together in our beliefs.
This is a very strange discussion in the sense that there seems to be some very strong, passionate disagreement going on, yet I find that I agree with most of what everyone is saying, even those who seemingly strongly disagree.
To me it comes down to this: Personally I have no problem with the concept of working part time. Under the right conditions I think I would actually prefer to work a couple of days per week. But work, the way it exists almost everywhere now, sucks. It's not usually the work itself; it's all the leeches who are feeding off the ones who actually do the work, and those whose job it is to speed up the line while simultaneously ensuring that nobody feels good about what it is they do, lest they become complacent and slow down. It has become destructive to my spirit and I would rather live hand-to-mouth for the next forty years than subject myself to much more of it. So if society is going to need more of us to work part time in the future, they're going to have to address the crap that drives people out. If they don't, as far as I'm concerned society can shove it for as long as I'm able to have a cheap roof over my head and food on the table.
To me it comes down to this: Personally I have no problem with the concept of working part time. Under the right conditions I think I would actually prefer to work a couple of days per week. But work, the way it exists almost everywhere now, sucks. It's not usually the work itself; it's all the leeches who are feeding off the ones who actually do the work, and those whose job it is to speed up the line while simultaneously ensuring that nobody feels good about what it is they do, lest they become complacent and slow down. It has become destructive to my spirit and I would rather live hand-to-mouth for the next forty years than subject myself to much more of it. So if society is going to need more of us to work part time in the future, they're going to have to address the crap that drives people out. If they don't, as far as I'm concerned society can shove it for as long as I'm able to have a cheap roof over my head and food on the table.
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Strong opinions is putting it mildly - ie I've been the benificiary of ten years of 'advice' on how I should 'volunteer' my time from well meaning friends and acquantices - since 'I' have nothing to do all day - to the point of 'forcing me into downright curmudgeon-ness' as a self defense mechanism.
To repeat an earlier post - the brokerage ad of the young guy(who hates his job) and the old guy(rich due to the broker) on the archeology dig - ? work and fun in the same place?
We did some 'free' putting together of playground eq/etc. at a kids park - along with some parks(low pay) dept. people. ? Guess who had fun(mostly retired engineers) and who worked - and the weather wasn't too good either.
To repeat an earlier post - the brokerage ad of the young guy(who hates his job) and the old guy(rich due to the broker) on the archeology dig - ? work and fun in the same place?
We did some 'free' putting together of playground eq/etc. at a kids park - along with some parks(low pay) dept. people. ? Guess who had fun(mostly retired engineers) and who worked - and the weather wasn't too good either.
I don't mean to offend anyone, and I don't blame anyone for indulging themselves. Up until a few weeks ago that was what I wanted, and I may just be in a momentary altruistic mood, and will return to my natural selfishness. Lately, though, I've been asking myself what I'm put on this earth to do. I decided it is pretty unlikely that I was put on this earth to watch TV, or even to golf or travel.
I also don't want to label anyone a sinner without knowing anything about them. It's all too easy to type things in this type of forum that say or imply things that you don't mean.
I certainly wouldn't claim that all work is more noble than non-work. If you are a hit-man or thief or extortionist or one of their legal equivalents, then the world may be better off if you just decide to stay home for the rest of your life. You can also choose to spend your time in ways that are rewarding, just not financially so. Ted and Nords have already discussed Ben Franklin, a great example of someone who chose to contribute to society without chasing the almighty dollar. I think Dominguez might be another good example. He "retired" when he was, what, 35? But he worked for the rest of his life writing his book, speaking, and forming his foundation.
Broadly speaking there are a couple different kinds of FI/RE. There's the "I'm going to quit my job so I can do something better with my life," and the "I'm going to quit my job so I can fish and golf and sail." Just about all of the discussion on this board seems to be about the latter. Maybe there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe there is something a little bit wrong with that, especially if you're in your 30's. And even if there's nothing wrong with it, I don't see how anyone can argue that the first kind isn't a little bit better.
Indeed.
I also don't want to label anyone a sinner without knowing anything about them. It's all too easy to type things in this type of forum that say or imply things that you don't mean.
I certainly wouldn't claim that all work is more noble than non-work. If you are a hit-man or thief or extortionist or one of their legal equivalents, then the world may be better off if you just decide to stay home for the rest of your life. You can also choose to spend your time in ways that are rewarding, just not financially so. Ted and Nords have already discussed Ben Franklin, a great example of someone who chose to contribute to society without chasing the almighty dollar. I think Dominguez might be another good example. He "retired" when he was, what, 35? But he worked for the rest of his life writing his book, speaking, and forming his foundation.
Broadly speaking there are a couple different kinds of FI/RE. There's the "I'm going to quit my job so I can do something better with my life," and the "I'm going to quit my job so I can fish and golf and sail." Just about all of the discussion on this board seems to be about the latter. Maybe there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe there is something a little bit wrong with that, especially if you're in your 30's. And even if there's nothing wrong with it, I don't see how anyone can argue that the first kind isn't a little bit better.
Indeed.
Re: "ER is not for sissies!"
I don't know what I was put on Earth to do either, Bongo2, but I'm pretty sure that the guidance won't come from a boss or from the office environment. It has to come from within, and some people avoid that frightening prospect by staying at the office until they die.
I think Joe D retired when he was 30, but give us a break here. Those approaching ER are enthralled by the prospect of ditching the office, and that anticipatory fantasizing probably accounts for 20-30% of the board's posts. Those of us just starting ER (after two years I still count myself in that group) are still recovering from extensive burnout while trying to decide what our true interests are. Even Paul Terhorst says "Change nothing for two years" before redirecting your life. So that discussion probably covers another 30-40% of the posts.
Have you read Po Bronson's book "What should I DO with my life?" The paperbook (just out) actually expands on the hardback edition, and it's a wonderful journey through the lives of all sorts of people. He presents the teenager who received a letter from the Dalai Lama telling him he's a reincarnated holy man, to the fourth generation Timken (of the bearings company) who's worth millions but who chooses to work as a beat cop in a southwest town. The discussion with the American Indian who's executing a 20-year plan to help his people is particularly compelling. The book has no answers-- only more questions-- but the theme is hundreds of people, some with financial independence, searching for their life's avocation. Even the ones who have found one aren't sure that it's the only one.
If I did a time-motion study of my day, my job description would be (1) parent and (2) spouse (unfortunately in that order). Add in home improvement (catching up for all those years of workplace neglect) and groundskeeper, and I feel lucky to be able to pump iron & surf twice a week.
Here's another thought. I have a rather obsessive tendency to find more and more things to do, which was no problem when I was on active duty (no overtime pay either!). It's even easier go farther overboard in retirement, especially when everyone around you says "Hey, you're the retired guy now, you have the time to do this!" Prioritizing and time management have actually been more challenging to me in retirement because now I have no one to blame but myself for what I choose to tackle. What seems self-indulgent or "dropping out" to others is, to me, a desperately needed chance to stop, catch my breath, and decide how I'm going to finish this marathon. (It won't be by sprinting.) You don't arrive at those decisions by sitting down behind your desk at 9 AM with a cup of coffee and a "TO DO" list. In fact, once you get your pulse under control, you realize that there's no reason to even stay on the track. Is that a different track over there? And, hey, check out the surf today! Before you know it you've left the race behind you.
The way you find your course is the way we all used to do it when we were (a lot) younger-- you go out and play, and at some point you follow your interests. Only this time you don't have your high-school guidance counselor or your parents "helping" you. We're all playing while we decide what we want to be when (if) we grow up.
I can't measure my successes anymore by mission accomplishment or even by the height of my OUT box. When you ER, how will you measure your successes? Will you create your own ruler, or will you have to go find someone to measure you?
I don't know what I was put on Earth to do either, Bongo2, but I'm pretty sure that the guidance won't come from a boss or from the office environment. It has to come from within, and some people avoid that frightening prospect by staying at the office until they die.
I think Joe D retired when he was 30, but give us a break here. Those approaching ER are enthralled by the prospect of ditching the office, and that anticipatory fantasizing probably accounts for 20-30% of the board's posts. Those of us just starting ER (after two years I still count myself in that group) are still recovering from extensive burnout while trying to decide what our true interests are. Even Paul Terhorst says "Change nothing for two years" before redirecting your life. So that discussion probably covers another 30-40% of the posts.
Have you read Po Bronson's book "What should I DO with my life?" The paperbook (just out) actually expands on the hardback edition, and it's a wonderful journey through the lives of all sorts of people. He presents the teenager who received a letter from the Dalai Lama telling him he's a reincarnated holy man, to the fourth generation Timken (of the bearings company) who's worth millions but who chooses to work as a beat cop in a southwest town. The discussion with the American Indian who's executing a 20-year plan to help his people is particularly compelling. The book has no answers-- only more questions-- but the theme is hundreds of people, some with financial independence, searching for their life's avocation. Even the ones who have found one aren't sure that it's the only one.
If I did a time-motion study of my day, my job description would be (1) parent and (2) spouse (unfortunately in that order). Add in home improvement (catching up for all those years of workplace neglect) and groundskeeper, and I feel lucky to be able to pump iron & surf twice a week.
Here's another thought. I have a rather obsessive tendency to find more and more things to do, which was no problem when I was on active duty (no overtime pay either!). It's even easier go farther overboard in retirement, especially when everyone around you says "Hey, you're the retired guy now, you have the time to do this!" Prioritizing and time management have actually been more challenging to me in retirement because now I have no one to blame but myself for what I choose to tackle. What seems self-indulgent or "dropping out" to others is, to me, a desperately needed chance to stop, catch my breath, and decide how I'm going to finish this marathon. (It won't be by sprinting.) You don't arrive at those decisions by sitting down behind your desk at 9 AM with a cup of coffee and a "TO DO" list. In fact, once you get your pulse under control, you realize that there's no reason to even stay on the track. Is that a different track over there? And, hey, check out the surf today! Before you know it you've left the race behind you.
The way you find your course is the way we all used to do it when we were (a lot) younger-- you go out and play, and at some point you follow your interests. Only this time you don't have your high-school guidance counselor or your parents "helping" you. We're all playing while we decide what we want to be when (if) we grow up.
I can't measure my successes anymore by mission accomplishment or even by the height of my OUT box. When you ER, how will you measure your successes? Will you create your own ruler, or will you have to go find someone to measure you?
dory36
Early-Retirement.org Founder, Developer of FIRECal
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2002
- Messages
- 1,841
Anyone who has ever worked in a huge business or government agency knows someone or has found themselves in a position where your contribution is nil or even negative for the overall organization, and you only exist to help keep competing departments from taking over headcount, budget, and authority.
Scott Adams' Dilbert strip is full of all-too-true examples. Any place where Dilbert strips are on nearly every cubicle has people in this situation. Any place that has banned Dilbert strips from cubicle walls has lots of people in this situation.
It is an interesting phenomenon that many people assume you are somehow a contributor to society when you are doing something that no one other than a manager with "turf" to protect could possibly justify -- especially when the work is something no one in his right mind would do without being paid for it.
Dory36
Scott Adams' Dilbert strip is full of all-too-true examples. Any place where Dilbert strips are on nearly every cubicle has people in this situation. Any place that has banned Dilbert strips from cubicle walls has lots of people in this situation.
It is an interesting phenomenon that many people assume you are somehow a contributor to society when you are doing something that no one other than a manager with "turf" to protect could possibly justify -- especially when the work is something no one in his right mind would do without being paid for it.
Dory36
E
eridanus2
Guest
I'm one of those aiming for retirement in my 30s. Truly, as mentioned in one of the first responses, the invisible hand has spoken: If I've earned enough to retire as well as many 65 year olds, then there is no difference in "productivity" over the course of our "working" lives. It's more complicated then that but the Free Market is our current God.
That said, I think a 20-30 hour work week, with a European vacation plan, is great. I loved my job in grad school. I was doing engineering work with a very flexible schedule and a results-oriented boss. Something changed, however, (60 hour weeks? TPS forms in triplicate? Three bosses?) and enthusiasm has been beaten out of me -- Bob Smith nailed it. Dory's post just above is also a truism.
I feel no guilt about seeking retirement in 5-10 years because I almost lost my soul in the last 10.
That said, I think a 20-30 hour work week, with a European vacation plan, is great. I loved my job in grad school. I was doing engineering work with a very flexible schedule and a results-oriented boss. Something changed, however, (60 hour weeks? TPS forms in triplicate? Three bosses?) and enthusiasm has been beaten out of me -- Bob Smith nailed it. Dory's post just above is also a truism.
I feel no guilt about seeking retirement in 5-10 years because I almost lost my soul in the last 10.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Well having had little of a childhood and almost nothing of an adolescence before flying full force into spending most waking hours in a dilbertian environment, I have no problems whatsoever in pursuing the fishing/watching tv/whatever course...at this time. As far as I can tell, the only clear benefit I have provided in this life has been the help and guidance of my fellow people, something that was only hindered by work and workplace shenanigans.
Having accomplished and exceeding one common measure of succeeding in this world - becoming wealthy and retiring early - I'm still pondering other measures of merit. If there are any more meritous, to whom they are meritous, and why it is that I and others feel that way.
Like prudent investing, one of those measures may be to sit back and do nothing. And in that pursuit of nothing, not only will I not feel guilty, I will not accept anyone elses "guilt painting" of me.
If what you do works for you, enjoy it; I support you. If you want to tell me what could or should work for me, I'll listen and thank you for your opinion. If you have elected to judge me or forcefully emboss your position on me, be careful of that door hitting you in the ass on your way out of it, because my foot will be helping it along. And if it reopens, you may want to run because I'm only releasing the hounds.
Having accomplished and exceeding one common measure of succeeding in this world - becoming wealthy and retiring early - I'm still pondering other measures of merit. If there are any more meritous, to whom they are meritous, and why it is that I and others feel that way.
Like prudent investing, one of those measures may be to sit back and do nothing. And in that pursuit of nothing, not only will I not feel guilty, I will not accept anyone elses "guilt painting" of me.
If what you do works for you, enjoy it; I support you. If you want to tell me what could or should work for me, I'll listen and thank you for your opinion. If you have elected to judge me or forcefully emboss your position on me, be careful of that door hitting you in the ass on your way out of it, because my foot will be helping it along. And if it reopens, you may want to run because I'm only releasing the hounds.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Hey, any way I can help. I learn a lot here too, almost every day. Glad you think i'm a young guy, some days I feel like an old fart. 42 now by the way, but I wouldnt mind being 39 again
Some folks have a problem with resentment/jealousy. I can live with that, as those folks are not people I need in my life. Period.
The folks that I have problems with need to tell me how I should feel about my life because they think they've got the angle that not only they should follow, but everyone else as well.
And for the rest of the afternoon I'm going to sit on my arse in the backyard and read the last couple of days worth of the WSJ. Unfortunately doing that sometimes gives me ideas on investing. Then I may drink a beer. And then take a nap. And then stay up very late watching tv. Bad TV. Then I think i'll sleep in late, and lay in bed all day tomorrow.
@#%%#$ productivity...
Some folks have a problem with resentment/jealousy. I can live with that, as those folks are not people I need in my life. Period.
The folks that I have problems with need to tell me how I should feel about my life because they think they've got the angle that not only they should follow, but everyone else as well.
And for the rest of the afternoon I'm going to sit on my arse in the backyard and read the last couple of days worth of the WSJ. Unfortunately doing that sometimes gives me ideas on investing. Then I may drink a beer. And then take a nap. And then stay up very late watching tv. Bad TV. Then I think i'll sleep in late, and lay in bed all day tomorrow.
@#%%#$ productivity...
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Over the past ten yrs I've suffered momentary -'legend in my own mind brain pharts' - ie if I'm smart enough to ER I should be 'doing something to change the world'. Usually one or two minutes of deep breathing and it passes.
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I've fallen of the wagon(only rarely) - used a whole dryer sheet and suffered the consequences - dryer sheet itch. T-shirts are the worst.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Well I did a little laundry along with my zero productivity activities. I didnt even see any interesting investment ideas in the WSJ. Just a damn article on TIPS. However, in the midst of laundering, I found a bare scrap of dryer sheet in a corner in the hallway. I must have dropped it from a dry load. I have no idea how many times its been used. But after ascertaining that nobody else saw, I snatched it up and ran a comforter through with it.
Does anyone have a beneficial use for dog and cat hair? Because I think mine are mass producing the stuff in some lab hidden in the house somewhere. Besides that suggestion to use it to weave together dryer sheets for use as underwear...
Does anyone have a beneficial use for dog and cat hair? Because I think mine are mass producing the stuff in some lab hidden in the house somewhere. Besides that suggestion to use it to weave together dryer sheets for use as underwear...
unclemick
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
? Dog and cat hair futures contracts? With the falling dollar, inflation fears and rising commodity price index, they might find a place alongside pork bellies. Who cares if they have a use - they might trade - remember some of the dot.-comms.?
