tough love -- college decisions

[Meadbh]

In Ireland they have no Greek life

True

binge drinking is much less since the kids have been drinking socially since about 16.

What planet are you on? Binge drinking is unfortunately endemic among young people in Ireland.

There is no point in discussing this any further. You have made up your mind to control your son’s next steps. I wish you all well. If I were in your son’s shoes, I would work really hard to get a qualification that leads to a job ASAP, and then get the hell out.

 

[gayl]

IMHO this is more about helicopter parenting than tough love. Hope I'm wrong but tough love would be giving options of:

- full time college at an accredited college supported by Bank of Mom or
- part time at an accredited community college paying nominal room & board living at home or
- work & paying rent elsewhere with nominal assistance or
- military

 

[tmm99]

Hi Rodi,

I read your story with great interest. I understand that poli-sci was not on the list of approved majors and engineering was, but not everyone has an aptitude for engineering. I'm curious to know what other majors were on the "approved" list?

I've been reading this thread with interest... I have 2 sons, one a jr, one a freshman, in high school. I also didn't take a direct path to college.

My parents let me know they would pay 100% of a public school education with 'strings attached'. The strings were 1) a major that would result in a career/job. 2) 3.0 average or better. 3) 4 years... not 6-7 years.

Additional options/strings... If school was local live at home, continue to contribute to chores/household responsibilities. If school was away - dorm and meal plan paid for - or equivalent... no fancy apartments off campus that cost way more than a dorm.

I was accepted to good schools (UC Berkeley for example) but was chaffing under the major restrictions (I wanted to be a poli sci major... which didn't meet the job/career requirement). So... I got a job and moved out. My choice. My parents weren't happy.

Let me tell you this was the best decision, FOR ME, ever... I was determined not to fail because I didn't want my parents (my dad specifically) to be able to say "I told you so.". And I discovered that working at an entry level job (insurance industry) was crappy and underpaid. I continued to go to the community college at night. It also worked out that my parents let me know that I could still go to school on the original terms. I didn't want to move home, even though I was accepted to a local uni. We negotiated. I would not have had the stones to pull off this negotiation at age 18, but at age 21, I was confident. Parents agreed to give me a monthly stipend equivalent to dorm fees... I had a cheap apartment with a roommate - so it worked out. (Although I still had to work part time.)

End of story - I majored in engineering - a field I *never* would have chosen at age 18, and had a great career. By the time I went to college full time I'd discovered the VALUE of education and felt appreciative to have parents willing to pay the school fees and help with the rent. If I'd gone straight to college I am sure I would have flunked out.

Now - as a parent.... I'm considering the same plans. Presenting the options that I'm willing to pay for (colleges I can afford in majors that I approve of.) Presenting the requirements for living under my roof over age 18 (chores, curfews). And at that point, the choice will be theirs. If either chooses to move out and get a mcJob... that's their choice and could be a good thing - like it was for me. I'm not telling them that the offer to pay for college doesn't expire if they don't go right away.... that's something they'll have to negotiate.

 

[aja8888]

Binge drinking in Ireland?

OP, FYI: A report a couple of years old, but I doubt very much things have changed.

Kind of shocking statistics:

Ireland has the second highest rate of binge drinking in the world
Men are more likely to engage in binge drinking with 62.4 per cent of male drinkers over the age of 15 saying they had engaged in heavy episode drinking in the last 30 days.

Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/binge-drinking-ireland-1464787-May2014/

Years ago I went to school and eventually worked with several Irish friends in Connecticut. They were renowned for their ability to consume alcohol.

 

[joeea]

Looking for reassurance or corrective action..

Based on all of your responses, it seems that you were looking for the former far more than the latter. So I won't bother to offer any more suggestions.

Good luck. I truly hope you and your son both get what you need.

 

[Luck_Club]

OP, FYI: A report a couple of years old, but I doubt very much things have changed.

Kind of shocking statistics:



Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/binge-drinking-ireland-1464787-May2014/

Years ago I went to school and eventually worked with several Irish friends in Connecticut. They were renowned for their ability to consume alcohol.

Yes they are:

US College only stats 1.825% die from alcohol related deaths!

Among college students ages 18-24, alcohol-related unintentional injury deaths increased 3% per 100,000 from 1,440 in 1998 to 1,825 in 2005.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701090/

Drinking too much can harm your health. Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths.
https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Lay that over 350,000,000 US population and you come up with a slightly higher 0.0251% direct deaths.

Ireland stats:

Alcohol is responsible for 88 deaths every month in Ireland. That’s over 1,000 deaths per year (total Population 4.7Million). That works out to 0.0212% if I did my math correct. Even if you just take the population in the critical 18-24 age bracket (estimated at 360,000) and attributed 100% of the deaths to them you end up with 0.27%

Overview of alcohol related harm - Alcohol Action Ireland
https://www.google.com/search?q=ire...0j69i57j0l4.3059j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/ireland-population/

Thank you for pushing me to seek the data to back up my anecdotal evidence.

 

[Luck_Club]

Based on all of your responses, it seems that you were looking for the former far more than the latter. So I won't bother to offer any more suggestions.

Good luck. I truly hope you and your son both get what you need.

Maybe I was. We had decided to restrict his options to:

CC
Ireland (gap year)
Move out

He is choosing Ireland over the other two, probably because it allows him the most options including the UNI as a freshman in year two.

Many answers fell into CC or let him fail at uni and build himself back up from there. The parental units, who have raised him for 17.5 years now, have been saying to each other, "we should hold him back a year to mature" for over 10 years. If we had maybe we wouldn't be faced with the tough choice now.

I've seen first hand with my brother, how fail and regroup doesn't always work.

It is never a dull moment, and I will let everyone know how it progresses. He could change his mind when we go to Ireland and say I want CC, which closes down the Uni freshman experience door to him.

It is his choice, and though it is heavily weighted to favor Ireland, you all are correct the choice is his, and his alone. I'm just thankful I have the resources, and support group to offer him this option.

 

[ncbill]

But again, why Ireland?

I think we all understand the desire to see maturity improve, so offering to pay for a local CC while they live at home allows the parent to monitor progress towards that goal.

I just don't see how you would monitor progress towards that goal while they're overseas struggling to adapt to a very different culture.

 

[redduck]

I have a question: Suppose your son finds that he can't keep up with the rigors of the math and science that an engineering student must face, but finds that in his elective courses, he's an excellent writer. (Ireland is noted for excellent writers). The kid wins awards, gets some minor works published. Is encouraged by his teachers. He's happy. Then what?

 

[Luck_Club]

I have a question: Suppose your son finds that he can't keep up with the rigors of the math and science that an engineering student must face, but finds that in his elective courses, he's an excellent writer. (Ireland is noted for excellent writers). The kid wins awards, gets some minor works published. Is encouraged by his teachers. He's happy. Then what?

There are no elective writing courses. But if he found that was his passion he has my support.

The engineering is what he thrives at for what it is worth. Took CAD & Physics in HS and thrived in both.

Why Ireland:
Ireland presented itself in "our circumstances", because we visited last April, and he actually liked it a lot. He even said he would think about going to school there when we returned. In a paper he wrote, prior to the choices laid out a few weeks ago, it was his best vacation.

Wouldn't be an option accept...We have close friends very near the school (1.5 miles). These are the type of friends that would say you are coming to dinner this Sunday, and I wont take no for an answer.

IT IS SAFE. Dublin we would say no. My Daughter is in Philly, doing her rotation in Camden, NJ. There are several hundred robberies on and around the campus every 6 months. Had we paid more attention DD may have been guided to some place a bit safer. We had her take a crash safety course over break for those that read my other thread.

It's cheap. The total cost will be about 1/2 of the local UNI, but infinitely more expensive then the free CC.

It opens and doesn't close any doors. Because it is overseas, we can defer the acceptances he has, where as the CC wouldn't allow this option.

Formal Gap year programs have issues. The formal GAP year programs seemed to have lots of reviews about drug and other problem reforms. My brother was shipped off to reform type HS to reform him, and it honed his skills so to speak. At 40+ still can't get it together.

I'm 90% sure if #'s 1, & 2 were missing Ireland would have been stricken from the options. Many alternative options were presented, that had we known about them prior we would have put them on the table.

 

[redduck]

Why Ireland:
Ireland presented itself in "our circumstances", because we visited last April, and he actually liked it a lot. He even said he would think about going to school there when we returned. In a paper he wrote, prior to the choices laid out a few weeks ago, it was his best vacation.

See, I just knew that writing is his passion

 

[Katsmeow]

He is choosing Ireland over the other two, probably because it allows him the most options including the UNI as a freshman in year two.

No, that isn't why he is choosing Ireland. It is because you have offered him only choices that he doesn't like. Ireland is the least worst probably because it gets him away from home. That is not a knock on you. It is natural for young adults to want to leave home.

However, you have given in this thread absolutely no reason for why he would succeed at school in Ireland if he couldn't succeed at the local university.

Many answers fell into CC or let him fail at uni and build himself back up from there.

See that is the problem. If he will fail at the local university (and he may) then he is very likely to fall at school in Ireland. In fact, he is probably more likely to fail at school in Ireland. The fact you have friends there doesn't change that fact.

I can't wrap my head around the idea at all that you think he can't succeed at a local state university but you think he can succeed in another country.

The vast majority of the people posting in this thread have raised concerns (to be mild) about the Ireland idea. What is interesting to me is that these are often people who don't much agree on anything else and they pretty consistently don't see a reason why Ireland would work if the local university wouldn't.

I honestly feel that you didn't really want feedback on that issue. Of course, you have to make your own decision. But, I would suggest that you really think about why people who are very different from one another would so consistently think this idea is not a good one.

Throughout my sons years in school I was on a mailing list for parents of 2E kids -- that is, kids who are twice exceptional. Both academically gifted, but with an LD or other disability or issue (my DS for example has ADHD).

I have been on that list for over 15 years. I can't tell you the number of people who sent their son or daughter off to school away from home because the kid really wanted it or the parent really wanted it. The kid wasn't succeeding in managing their life at home but somehow the parent thought the kid would somehow magically manage when they left home. And, many of them flamed out. Sometimes the kids learned from it. But, many became demoralized and didn't go back to school for years. I often thought that they would have done so much better to have stayed home and gone to school locally for a year or two.

 

[ivinsfan]

No, that isn't why he is choosing Ireland. It is because you have offered him only choices that he doesn't like. Ireland is the least worst probably because it gets him away from home. That is not a knock on you. It is natural for young adults to want to leave home.

However, you have given in this thread absolutely no reason for why he would succeed at school in Ireland if he couldn't succeed at the local university.



See that is the problem. If he will fail at the local university (and he may) then he is very likely to fall at school in Ireland. In fact, he is probably more likely to fail at school in Ireland. The fact you have friends there doesn't change that fact.

I can't wrap my head around the idea at all that you think he can't succeed at a local state university but you think he can succeed in another country.

The vast majority of the people posting in this thread have raised concerns (to be mild) about the Ireland idea. What is interesting to me is that these are often people who don't much agree on anything else and they pretty consistently don't see a reason why Ireland would work if the local university wouldn't.

I honestly feel that you didn't really want feedback on that issue. Of course, you have to make your own decision. But, I would suggest that you really think about why people who are very different from one another would so consistently think this idea is not a good one.

Throughout my sons years in school I was on a mailing list for parents of 2E kids -- that is, kids who are twice exceptional. Both academically gifted, but with an LD or other disability or issue (my DS for example has ADHD).

I have been on that list for over 15 years. I can't tell you the number of people who sent their son or daughter off to school away from home because the kid really wanted it or the parent really wanted it. The kid wasn't succeeding in managing their life at home but somehow the parent thought the kid would somehow magically manage when they left home. And, many of them flamed out. Sometimes the kids learned from it. But, many became demoralized and didn't go back to school for years. I often thought that they would have done so much better to have stayed home and gone to school locally for a year or two.

+1..not only do we not often agree as a group on things as a group, in general I think we represent a successful, goal oriented ,focus group of people with a lot of real life and child rearing experience.

Like you, I don't know if the OP was looking for agreement and validation that he could repeat back to his son or a real discussion of the merits of his idea.

 

[Badger]

Incentive, what the boy needs is an incentive. I barely made it out of HS yet was allowed entry into a small 4 year college. It was rough for the first couple of years to get up to speed but I had an incentive. It was the time of Viet Nam and the draft had been implemented. If I dropped out or failed out then the next stop would be the rice paddies. Now, years later I am a professor emeritus from a local college after 10 years as a Chemical Engineer and 30 years teaching Human Anatomy/Physiology, Biology, and Chemistry.

There are plenty of colleges and universities from which to choose that are reasonable and offer studies in which he is interested. He needs to make a decision.

But there is nothing like a little incentive to build a fire under your butt. What would be his incentive?

Cheers!

 

[Bestwifeever]

As a member of the “luck club”, you could likely send this child anywhere on the world without financial hardship but having friends who live near a school across an ocean seems to be the deciding factor for him. It sounds like you really regret not holding him back in grade school (not sure if his school advised that or if that was your also valid parental instinct) because you feel he still lags his peers in maturity, but that would have embarrassed him (no doubt it would have, of course). I think we all know where your child is going to end up for school and we all wish him the best and hope he flourishes there.

 

[Luck_Club]

So I just re-read most of the thread. There have been some great stories of pushing and guiding HS seniors who weren't ready for college. They were greatly appreciated.

A theme that appeared throughout the thread is send to CC to mature.

A thought that seems to get lost is Ireland is another CC option that is very similar to sending to the local CC. We found some unique items at the school that we think will help ignite the spark in our son. For example this is something we know will benefit him:

They have this program for all first years. It isn't the same as tutoring, which has to be sought out and coordinated. It is required and assigned as a part of your classes.

In the first 5 weeks they have a boot camp so to speak which includes study & motivational assessments get to know you type of stuff. They also require all first years to take a study skills development class, hopefully based off of the assessments. At our local CC they don't even have tutoring for most of the science classes. Our CC is also ranked below 35% success rate.

How does your community college stack up? - CNNMoney.com


http://www.gmit.ie/sites/default/files/public/general/docs/gmit-first5-brochure-print.pdf

 

[rodi]

Hi Rodi,

I read your story with great interest. I understand that poli-sci was not on the list of approved majors and engineering was, but not everyone has an aptitude for engineering. I'm curious to know what other majors were on the "approved" list?

Nursing, business, architecture, accounting, (computer science would have been - it was new back then.) If I wanted to do a liberal art I would have needed to get a teaching credential. Basically - I had to show a path to a job.

My sister started as a nursing major and changed to business. (and later in her thirties got a teaching credential and became a teacher). My brother did architecture... but later in his life got all of his IT certifications and became an IT guy in his late 30's. So the starting career wasn't necessarily the ending career - but we were all employed straight out of school.

 

[gayl]

Why is it important to you that he goes to another country? Are all your friends' kids going to top notch 4 yr schools? (FWIW Ireland having a P.A.S.S. program is really nice, seems to be just like the E.O.P.S. program at community colleges -- and it does work -- glad they do it) Apparently your mind was made up before creating this thread but have you asked your so-to-be adult son what he wants? Maybe he needs a true gap year

FWIW: Nephew was the only one who didn't go straight through college. Went to SDSU and flunked out after 2 years. Returned home graduating at 30. Owns 4 homes in Marin & ready to FIRE at 37. DS took 6 years to graduate in accounting (after multiple major changes: chemistry, premed, physics, engineering) owns a hone in pricey Bay Area but won't be set to FIRE until 50. Both returned or started at CC and the one with gap years is in a field that he loves and is doing better. No one would have imagined that career for him but he's happy in it

 

[daylatedollarshort]

So I just re-read most of the thread. There have been some great stories of pushing and guiding HS seniors who weren't ready for college. They were greatly appreciated.

A theme that appeared throughout the thread is send to CC to mature.

Most community colleges have some assortment of study skills, tutoring and career planning classes. If you don't like the local CC, do you have any better ones in your state? In California, some maybe most of the the state 4 year schools have "service areas", so some of the parents send their kids to a CC in a service area of a selective college, in the hopes that will increase their kids chances of getting in which seem like a valid reason.

Or sometimes they don't want the social stigma (conspicuous consumption area) of having their kids go to the local community college so they will enroll their kid in a CC in some place cool so if anyone asks they can say "he is living in LA (or insert some other place) and going to school there". I get the feeling that must be the reason you are big on Ireland as most, if not all, here can't see a reason for it being advantageous to your son, and he is mad about going, so who else is left to benefit from the Ireland plan but you?

 

[tmm99]

Nursing, business, architecture, accounting, (computer science would have been - it was new back then.) If I wanted to do a liberal art I would have needed to get a teaching credential. Basically - I had to show a path to a job.

My sister started as a nursing major and changed to business. (and later in her thirties got a teaching credential and became a teacher). My brother did architecture... but later in his life got all of his IT certifications and became an IT guy in his late 30's. So the starting career wasn't necessarily the ending career - but we were all employed straight out of school.

Very interesting. The list looks reasonable, and it makes a lot of sense. I know enough college graduates who couldn't find much after graduation and had to go back to school.

 

[HadEnuff]

Looking for reassurance or corrective action.. My second child is graduating high school and college decision time is upon us. His grades were OK, but he still blows mid-terms or key projects pulling his entire grade down 1 letter. This results in about a 2.8 overall GPA

As a result of years of this pattern, he is now faced with limited choices for college and no scholarships. DW and I have debated holding him back every year since about 4th grade to allow him to mature and catch up to his peers. So here we stand facing our final influence, and have told him that despite getting into a few state schools in the middle of the heap, we will only support the community college, or a gap year overseas school.

The gap year foreign school is truly based on the belief that he isn't ready, and this is the best option for him. It would give him the year to rise to the occasion, and if he failed to get going give him another start the following year.

DW & I think that the overseas experience will make him more desirable to employers even if he comes back and enters a US institution in his second year. We also believe that if he doesn't like it and stay on for all 4 years that he will have a chance to apply and get into a higher level of school, maybe top 50. There are over 700 US companies with a presence in this country, including many of the big boys like Honeywell, J&J, & Medtronics to name a few. His time in country would elevate him as a desirable candidate for these companies in particular.

He is upset with us and though he liked the country when we visited is a bit apprehensive and doesn't want to go, preferring the local university (not the community college), which was his last choice when we started the application process. The local university has a low ranking in the country over all and is considered a party school by the locals, and had even made it into the #1 spot years ago according to US News.

We stacked the deck in favor of the overseas school including a requirement that he be out of the house for 44 hours a week if he chooses the community college route. For an INTG I'm sure this is painful, but the social piece is another reason we don't think he is ready.

So because we love our son and don't want to make him suffer, we are second guessing our tough love, which is forcing him out of his comfort zone, in the hopes it will spark the desire and drive to play the game.

So any thoughts about:
1) Will the overseas degree, assuming all four years, make him a more desirable candidate or hinder him?
2) Are we really ruining his life by forcing him to take a gap year if he comes back after a year?

I would like to start with the phrase I've marked in red, above.
No, it need not, and should not be your "final influence"... I hope you don't really feel that way.

Moving on...from my perspective, it looks like you have a round hole you are assuming your son must fit in, and he might be a square peg. Or not. Maybe he's a round peg that isn't quite ready for college.

I started in engineering school, and hated it. But looking back, I just wasn't ready for the intensity of such a focused education. I dropped back 15 yards, and punted. Took a more "liberalized" education. Stayed in college though. When I wound up in dental school, I realized it was much like engineering school, only I was mature enough to handle it, and succeed.

Your son hasn't taken his first college class and you already are worried about how the Big Boys are going to look at his credentials. He doesn't even have credentials yet.
I'd encourage him to evaluate what he wants. I'd suggest a year at home, classes at the local CC. If he isn't acing those classes, that will tell you a lot about what he's got, either from an ability point, or from the point of motivation.

If he doesn't want to learn, he's got to learn to earn, which means, if he doesn't want to go to school, I'd invite him out of the door, into the real world, with an understanding that if he decides he does want to learn, you are in HIS corner.

My DS is a genius. Way smarter than I, and he was often told he should be an engineer, because he was so good at math and science. The problem was, he didn't want that. He is a very happy man, coaching a ski team in Steamboat Springs. I told him, after two unsuccessful attempts at engineering school that just because you are good at something, that does not mean you are condemned to do it.

 

[Floridatennisplayer]

You sound very controlling, even in your posts to us. Perhaps he is choosing Ireland to get away from that and breathe.

I don’t see how he can get into a major university with his grades.

We have 2 adult children now..32-34. Our deal was: we will pay for 100% of college at a state supported school. I’m not paying $125k per year per kid for some out of state college so you can get a job as a school teacher. Our kids saw the strain it would put on us.

Son went to Ohio State, loved it, graduated easily in 4 years. Boom, easy.

Daughter was an average HS student and had no idea what she wanted to do. Her first year was frustrating bouncing around trying to think of a major and a career. Then one day she took my mom, her grandmother to the doctor to meet with her surgeon. The surgeon was explaining the knee surgery and a scrub tech came in. Daughter got to talking with her and found in fascinating. They asked her if she would like to sit in and observe. That was it! She dropped college and went to a 2 year tech school to become a scrub tech. Graduated top in her class. She loved it so much that after doing this for 2 years she decided to become an OR nurse. She flew through nursing school and got her BSN easily.

Point being, let THEM figure it out. It’s a winding road till something catches their attention.

 

[38Chevy454]

Just a comment about missing out on the freshman university experience. There are plenty of CC students that transfer as junior level to the 4-year university and have effectively the "freshman experience" their first year. Maybe slightly different only because they have a couple years of college level studying. But for many it is the first time living away from home, they live in the dorm, and being exposed to the university type education.

Also want to comment about costs. Living on-campus in the dorms with a meal plan is not necessarily cheaper than living off-campus with roommates. Obviously housing is location dependent.

 

[Walt34]

Also want to comment about costs. Living on-campus in the dorms with a meal plan is not necessarily cheaper than living off-campus with roommates. Obviously housing is location dependent.

One of my cousin's daughters was planning on going to Shepherd College (now Shepherd University) in Shepherdstown, WV. He bought a townhouse in Martinsburg, WV within ~20 minute's drive for her to live in. She rented out the two other bedrooms to two other girls and that either almost covered the mortgage or a bit above, I forget. And after the first year that gave all three girls in-state tuition rates. (My cousin lives in MD.) She lived in the townhouse for several years after graduation and when she got married he sold it for a hefty profit.

So there's more than one way to reduce housing costs. Granted not everyone can afford to buy a second home for the offspring to live in during college, and Martinsburg real estate is not expensive by many location's standards, but that's one way to do it.

 

[Brat]

The parents of one of my daughter's classmates purchased a condo near Santa Clara U for the use of their several daughters while attending college. By the time DD was a roommate in that condo it was well worn but if they sold it any time in the last 10 years those parents made a HUGE profit.