Union Venting - Grrrr!!!

[Fireup2020]

Well, I live in NJ...also happen to work for the state. As a result, I am a union member ( if you are an employee - 85% of union fees are taken out of our paychecks. You can elect for voting rights by kicking in the 15% on top of the stuff they take) Well, heated union talks are in season now, and was talked in to joining temporarily to vote. These d$&*! people have called me daily to pressure me to vote, they have not rec'd my ballot, did I rec'v my ballot, etc....) As soon as the contract negotiation is over, I am cancelling my "membership"... a couple nights ago, I returned the call and left a scathing message for them to never call me again. It felt good! (oh, have not heard from them yet)

Anyone else belong to something (hostily) that you feel harasses you? Do slow people like their phones ringing & having someone try to sway your opinions??

 

[dex]

You should have told the first person who called that their calling will cause me to vote for the other guy.

 

[FinanceDude]

You should have told the first person who called that their calling will cause me to vote for the other guy.

 

[Fireup2020]

Oh, my scathing message to them said "I'd vote 'yes' if my ballot had not already been sent in - just to piss them off" I get upset just thinking about it! Can they fire me for harassing the union back?

 

[laurence]

Worked for UPS as an unloader, closed shop, Teamsters. 25% of my take home went to union dues for the first 3 months (initiation fee), then I was behind on monthly dues and took me another 3 months to get even. The setup was genius, all new employees/union members were dirt and paid a gob of money to support the powerful lobbying arm of the union. Once you were an employee for 5 years you then were set for life ( almost impossible to get fired, pension after 20 years etc.). Most didn't make it that far.

One day a group of teamsters stood outside the building handing out ballot information for union elections. Upon receiving mine, I said, "Hey, there's only one candidate for each post!" Upon which the guy handing it to me said something like, "what, are you a wise guy or something?".

Now my mom is a big union supporter, her teachers union in L.A. was very strong. I look back now on their demands each time the contract came up and I'm a bit boggled. One time they got guaranteed 8% raises every year for the life of the contract ( or was it 9%?).

 

[Nords]

I'm not here to defend any particular union, and I don't always agree with my father-in-law's philosophy, but I do agree with his feelings on this subject:

The only justification for the existence of unions is: management.

His feelings were reinforced during the CBS strike of 1968. 40 years later, just about every survivor of his IBEW shop will be able to tell you who marched, who scabbed, and who cheated. Spouse and I still won't cross a picket line.

Could be worse-- you guys could be getting employee mail from Circuit City or for Northwest Airlines flight attendants. Or teaching Bob from Bangalore & Kathy from Calcutta how to do your jobs...

 

[Texas Proud]

Most unions are pricing themselves out of a job... they seem to want to keep the work down and the wages up...

An example... one of my BILs works in a plant and used to repair electric motors... some big, some small... well, he was not allowed to unhook the power. So, for a small 1HP motor, a union electrician WITH HELPER would come and remove the three wires... my BIL would then take the motor and fix it or replace it... sometimes it took a few hours... all the time the electrician and helper were 'waiting'... then he would bolt the motor back in place and the electrician would reconnect the three wires... Now, my BIL had his electrician license, so it was not a case of a non-licensed person doing the work... just the union rules...

 

[bosco]

it always amazes me when people act like the union is some separate organization trying to harass them.

The people calling you were probably employees like you that were volunteering their time because they want to improve their wages/working conditions. Imagine their stupidity in thinking you might also share their goals

As a former contract negotiater, I can tell you there is nothing more difficult than trying to get good terms out of management when faced apathetic members or worse, with a bunch of union "members" that feel like you. Unfortunately, labor law is such that the union must bargain for everyone, even those who don't care or won't contribute.

I'll tell you what I've always told those in my union:

you'll get the contract you deserve

 

[bssc]

An example... one of my BILs works in a plant and used to repair electric motors... some big, some small... well, he was not allowed to unhook the power. So, for a small 1HP motor, a union electrician WITH HELPER would come and remove the three wires... my BIL would then take the motor and fix it or replace it... sometimes it took a few hours... all the time the electrician and helper were 'waiting'... then he would bolt the motor back in place and the electrician would reconnect the three wires... Now, my BIL had his electrician license, so it was not a case of a non-licensed person doing the work... just the union rules...

I liked the Dilbert example where, the company cannot replace the batteries in their wall clocks because it is a union job. However, they can buy and hang new clocks, which they do since it ends up being cheaper.

 

[Fireup2020]

Bosco,

I do 'feel' like the "union" is another entity. The opinion that I have developed is based on my working situation. If working with veterans were not typically a civil service position, I would not be a civil service employee, and thus not griping at the moment. My hours, breaks, lunches are MANDATED by union contracts. I have been "tattled" on for working through my lunch - heaven forbid...I had a customer I was working with. "you'll get reported to the union"...also had to have 'the talk' because "people" heard I was at numerous veteran events - after working hours!!! (gasp) my hands are tied at work like that - ...and it is ok for you (the union) to call me 5-10X during union negotiations? On my cell phone because it is on file with my employer At least I don't get calls during the regular elections because I do not have a land line!

I thought labor unions were established to improve workers' work envioronment, pay, benefits, safety, etc? We had a great union at our plant - and I was management, but the union guys were happy to be there and not backstabbing like here with CWA.

 

[stargazer08]

I have absoutely NOTHING good to say about unions. I have been on the receiving end of a horrid union experience where myself and my children (pre-teen girls) were threatened and followed by union business agents. Not a pleasant experience. Unions used to protect workers and when they were first organized, did just that. Now, they are all about making a buck off of their members. For the most part, they are concerned with lining their pockets, not protecting their members. What they charge employers for "benefits" packages and what benefits they provide to their members is a horrible injustice. It's all about making a buck for the guys behind the desks. I think the only union that is successful in taking care of their membership is the laborers union. Their people have excellent health care. Can you tell I'm a bit jaded and bitter here? It's been 6 years since I've lived through hell and I can hardly think about it without feeling extreme anger and hatred for the people I came into contact with.

 

[dumpster56]

Greedy humans.

 

[Goonie]

I've been active in the union since I started w*rking. My union has fought tooth & nail for my benefit! They have fought for a competitive wage, quality health insurance, safe working conditions, proper training, stipends (about $10k/year) for various required certifications and licenses, and now most importantly for me, VERY GOOD retirement benefits!!!

I attended my last union meeting this evening, since I'm ERing on Friday. I was recognized for my 30+ years of service and support of our union local. They presented me with my union retiree's card, and (because I'll be 'buying' a few years of service credit) I was also presented my 35 year service pin. Our state council rep was on hand, and threw a pizza party for me, too!

Are unions perfect? Heck no! But IMHO they sure as h*ll beat the alternative!!! If I had to do it all over again, would I do things the same way? YES!!! Probably would have been even more involved!

My hat's off to AFSCME Council 31, Local 2892!!! Thanks for the memories....and the BENNYs!!!

 

[bosco]

personally, I don't like it when cops hang around either. But I sure wouldn't enjoy trying to live in a society without them, and I don't resent their existence.

I feel the same way about vacuum cleaners--they're expensive, annoying, and dirty. But a necessary evil.

if you want to see what life would be like without unions, I suggest studying a bit of history. They did not occur without lots of people suffering and dying. Child labor laws, 40 hour work weeks, and premium overtime (which Bush has been trying to take away) would not have happened without them. Yes, they can be annoying. And yes, some are better or worse than others. But you are naive to think that workers in general wouldn't be taken advantage of even more if they ceased to exist.....

Therefore, my conclusion is that if you do not support them, and they are legally obligated to bargain and support you, then you are freeloading at the direct expense of others (I believe 'scab' is the term). Everybody likes to think they are special and different. In reality, we are all dispensible. Management would like nothing better to divide and conquer, turn back the clock. This is already happened to a large extent--part of the Reagan legacy. Unions at least try to stop or slow this process down. How effective they are, or will be, is another matter.

 

[runchman]

Gee I don't have an engineers union here.... where is the child labor? I guess it must be on the floor below me and I've missed it. Maybe the evil non-union-protected company doesn't allow them out of their cubes or something.

Could it possibly be that times have changed and there just isn't much need for unions anymore??

 

[Nords]

Could it possibly be that times have changed and there just isn't much need for unions anymore??

We'll have to ask the IBM engineers.

I think that there will be unions until we no longer require management. Scott Adams can't be everywhere!

 

[bosco]

Gee I don't have an engineers union here.... where is the child labor? I guess it must be on the floor below me and I've missed it. Maybe the evil non-union-protected company doesn't allow them out of their cubes or something.

Could it possibly be that times have changed and there just isn't much need for unions anymore??

you're right. times have changed. corporations and management aren't greedy. I'm quite certain they wouldn't exploit workers or children if we gave them the opportunity

 

[Goonie]

you're right. times have changed. corporations and management aren't greedy. I'm quite certain they wouldn't exploit workers or children if we gave them the opportunity

 

[ERD50]

you're right. times have changed. corporations and management aren't greedy. I'm quite certain they wouldn't exploit workers or children if we gave them the opportunity

Of course corporations are greedy. But, they also need to hire people, and if they don't offer a decent total compensation package, the workers will be lured away by other greedy corporations that want to make money from the output of those workers.

The problems you mention came from a time when the corporations sometimes had monopoly power over workers. That is rare (or non-existent?) today.

Simple test - why is any non-union person paid more than minimum wage today? It seems your theory states every corp could 'force' every non-union worker to accept minimum wage. I didn't work for minimum wage during my professional career, even though I worked for a greedy corporation that would have paid me nothing if they could get away with it. But they can't.

It is all about free markets.

-ERD50

 

[runchman]

Of course corporations are greedy. But, they also need to hire people, .....

It is all about free markets.

-ERD50

Thanks for nicely articulating what I couldn't.

Now if you want to get paid 25 bucks per hour for a job that the next guy will do for 10, well then a union might be your friend

 

[bosco]

Simple test - why is any non-union person paid more than minimum wage today?
It is all about free markets.

-ERD50

because unions have raised the average wages, so they can't get away with it so easily.

although they are trying--by moving the jobs overseas (yes, it's all about free markets)

c'mon--a group of people acting in concert (union) have more clout than individuals acting separately. Whether you like it or not, if you are employed by others, you have benefited from the unions.

I'm well aware of the shortcomings of unions--I can't defend them in many ways. But I would sure hate to see them disappear.

 

[ERD50]

because unions have raised the average wages, so they can't get away with it so easily.

Sure, if a union has enough members in an industry and has raised wages, that will tend to spill over, to the extent that greedy companies need to compete in the job market. If there are higher paying union jobs available, other non-union companies need to compete with those wages (maybe not quite meet them, some workers prefer a non-union environment).

However, my career (engineering, engineering/management) has had almost zero union representation, yet salaries are way above average. Conversely, a lot of people with degrees in areas w/o strong job demand don't get paid very well. So the overall effect of unions was to selectively help me, but not them? How does that work?

although they are trying--by moving the jobs overseas (yes, it's all about free markets)

I know it hurts if you are the one replaced, but I still think that this pain is better than the alternative. Protectionism just trades one set of 'problems' for another. Moving jobs overseas can benefit those overseas workers, and potentially, provide us with cheaper (sometimes better) products. Protectionism is just a legally supported monopoly.

c'mon--a group of people acting in concert (union) have more clout than individuals acting separately.

No argument there - but that does not mean I think it is a good thing. And when greedy corporations work in concert to fix prices, they also have more clout than individual corporations. Are you in favor of corporate price fixing?

Whether you like it or not, if you are employed by others, you have benefited from the unions.

I doubt it. Like I said before, I don't think my lifetime earnings have been improved by any unions. And, in some cases, the unions have driven up the prices of goods/services I purchase, and in some cases, unions have reduced the quality of those goods/services through protectionism of their members. Probably an overall negative for me.

I'm well aware of the shortcomings of unions--I can't defend them in many ways. But I would sure hate to see them disappear.

I actually would like to see them disappear. IMO, free markets (on both sides - employee/employer) will do a better job for us than any form of artificial price fixing. AFAIK, any attempts at price fixing have just provided a short term benefit to those that are supported by this form of welfare. It just pushed the expense onto someone else. An overall negative.

Sure, the unions performed an important service back in the day when corporations had a monopoly in some job markets. I think we would have been much better served if the government broke up the monopolies, and let the free market do it's thing. That would have done more to fix the root cause, and those companies would have had to compete for workers.

It strikes me as odd that the price of 99% of the goods/services we spend our money on is determined by a free market. It works for all that stuff, so why should some specific jobs be exempt from this? I don't get it.

-ERD50

 

[spark0506]

As a small business owner my employees, for the most part, are paid as well or in many cases better than like businesses that have unionized employees. I believe you get what you pay for. My employees don’t stay because they love me they stay because I give them a good job; good fair wage, good beni’s, and we treat everybody with respect. We need each other. The excellent employee that goes the extra mile will move up faster and will have an opportunity to make more money than someone who doesn’t, plain and simple. Seniority doesn’t guarantee a higher wage but in many cases an older, wiser, more talented employee is very valuable and is highly compensated. I think that’s the American way and it’s what creates opportunity and ultimately success. It’s not rocket science. I sure don’t need a union to tell me or to tell my employees how to be successful, give me a break. Just look to the automakers if you want to see how well the union can run a business. I put them right in line with the government….get em out of the way. The marketplace sets prices and wages for the most part……we don’t control the wind we just adjust the sails so to speak….. My plan has always been to pay a bit more, expect more, and get more out of people. I think it’s a win-win-win and it goes on everyday all across America in the business world. Not all of management are fat cats and not all of management exploit their employees. I believe quite the contrary.

 

[Texas Proud]

Way back when.... early 1900s... unions were used for a good thing.. they improved the lot of a hugh number of Americans... they, IMO, were responsible for the big middle class and helped make us the country we are.... I am grateful that it happened...

Don't know when, but they started to change... and for the worse.. an example during the 1970s they HURT the automobile industry (not that management didn't do a lot of bad)... but they were paid not to work for many many months..

Now, unions are not there to protect the workers like they were back then... now just a way to prevent the workers from being fired...

 

[jazz4cash]

I agree with Texas Proud. Before EPA,OSHA, and many other regulatory agencies came into the game, unions provided a valuable service. The big unions never adopted to the times. They could have become a valuable resource for both employees and employers, but that did not happen (for the most part) and they often just add cost to operations without adding value. Some of the large embedded unions are just as greedy as the corporations and the union employees are caught in the middle.