Financial Institutions Refused to Honor Her Power of Attorney

[pb4uski]

This is an interesting thread.


My mom has 2 accounts at Schwab. I am Full POA and it is noted on the Schwab account that I see stating my role under the "account access" tab. Each of her accounts have designated beneficiaries.


Are you guys saying that i will run into issues once she passes?


Should I be getting some additional documentation while she is still alive?

Yes, you probably will run into issues but it depends on what kind of accounts they are. You'll be frozen out of the accounts other than trust accounts that you are a trustee for once you or another beneficiary notify Schwab of her death. The easiest way to do it would be for the designated beneficiaries to each set up similar type accounts at Schwab as soon as possible. Then provide Schwab with a death certificate.

While I have some issues with the way Schwab does things, as of today, a month after mother's death, the assets from her 4 Schwab accounts have been fully distributed to her 5 beneficiaries but I had to push them hard to get it done so quickly. They initially indicated that it would take 5-6 weeks for them to distribute her IRA to the beneficiaries. I told them that if it took more than 5-6 days that I was going to file complaints with FINRA and the SEC that Schwab was slow walking distributing assets to the beneficiaries after they had the death certificate. They offerd to expedite things and they ended up doing it in less than 10 days.

 

[FREE866]

Yes, you probably will run into issues but it depends on what kind of accounts they are. You'll be frozen out of the accounts once you notify her of her death. The easiest way to do it would be for the designated beneficiaries to each set up similar type accounts at Schwab as soon as possible. The provide Schwab with a death certificate.

While I have some issues with the way Schwab does things, as of today, a month after mother's death, the assets from her 4 Schwab accounts have been fully distributed to her 5 beneficiaries.

She has an IRA and a brokerage account. Yes, all beneficiaries have those set up as well. Although I believe on passing the beneficiaries will have to set up new "Inherited IRA" accounts.

 

[pb4uski]

She has an IRA and a brokerage account. Yes, all beneficiaries have those set up as well. Although I believe on passing the beneficiaries will have to set up new "Inherited IRA" accounts.

Yes, each beneficiary will need to set up an inherited IRA account of the same type as what your mom has (traditional or Roth). If their brokerage account is a joint account, they may want to set up and individual brokerage account. Provide a death certificate and a little pressure and they can do it promptly. No pressure and they'll slow walk it.

 

[FREE866]

Yes, each beneficiary will need to set up an inherited IRA account of the same type as what your mom has (traditional or Roth). If their brokerage account is a joint account, they may want to set up and individual brokerage account. Provide a death certificate and a little pressure and they can do it promptly. No pressure and they'll slow walk it.

They are all individual accts so should be good. there is a Schwab office a 10 minute walk from me so I'm not too worried.
Thx


And congrats on UPRO


Go all in--- F it!!!


Bull market baby!!

 

[Flieger]

Interesting topic.
For Ally Bank, many times I called as my dad not to mention that my mom who is still alive has a name that is not clearly gender based, so she is effectively a male when I call.
I have all the logins for my brother and mom, except she doesn't have a Fidelity one yet.
Had a very involved conversation with Fidelity, filled out a comprehensive form with notary signatures for both of us just to get a linked bank account for me to use. Then they tell me I can only push from the bank side but only with a wire transfer. Screw that.
She is going to get a login and I will go from there. They know effectively I will do this, but nothing they can do about it.

Just as a note: Before my Dad passed in November, I had access to his Fidelity account online (had his login credentials). One day while doing some things he asked me to do, I let slip that I was in his account. The Rep asked if it was my account, when I answered truthfully, I was locked out. I got my Dad on the phone in a 3 way call, he answered some questions, and I was back in good graces and able to do whatever was needed. It was an easy process.

Another note: The account (brokerage) was a TOD account with a 50/50 split between myself and my sister. Upon Dad's passing, I made the notice on the Fidelity site, called their department dealing with TOD's. The account was locked until we received the Death Certificate, which I uploaded. Since I have a Fidelity account, transfer was within a few days to my account. My sister opened an account while talking with the TOD rep, and her transfer also happened within a few days.

Fidelity was very professional and helpful.

 

[Dtail]

A Trust can help with this issue, giving all Trustees legal access to accounts.

The largest account is a Trust. However see below

^^^ True, but there are still IRAs and such that can be a problem.

Yes my issue is with her IRA account.

 

[njhowie]

Another note: The account (brokerage) was a TOD account with a 50/50 split between myself and my sister. Upon Dad's passing, I made the notice on the Fidelity site, called their department dealing with TOD's. The account was locked until we received the Death Certificate, which I uploaded. Since I have a Fidelity account, transfer was within a few days to my account. My sister opened an account while talking with the TOD rep, and her transfer also happened within a few days.

Fidelity was very professional and helpful.

Depends on the account holdings and who gets assigned to do the transfers. Some folks are better than others. We initially were assigned a dud. He did close to nothing for several weeks. After I demanded to be put in direct contact with the back office everything went smoothly. The woman took charge and she made everything happen, followed instructions to the letter. When they had made a mistake and I said it was ok, did not make a big difference, she went back and had her worker bees correct it and make everything perfect.

 

[Flieger]

Depends on the account holdings and who gets assigned to do the transfers. Some folks are better than others. We initially were assigned a dud. He did close to nothing for several weeks. After I demanded to be put in direct contact with the back office everything went smoothly. The woman took charge and she made everything happen, followed instructions to the letter. When they had made a mistake and I said it was ok, did not make a big difference, she went back and had her worker bees correct it and make everything perfect.

I guess this could be said for any customer service group. my experience was very good.

 

[Exchme]

DW and I already had DPOAs but Vanguard wanted us to fill out their Full Agent Authorization. Since I have an IRA, we were worried that if I became incapacitated and needed care, she would want to use my IRA money to pay for care, but wouldn't have access without a competency hearing.

We needed two witnesses and a notary, but found that our Homeowner's Association would do that for free (since we pay over $1400/year to them, it's nice to get something for it other than a letter to trim a tree, which was really annoying since it was the neighbor's tree-but I digress). I do like how we now can both see all of our assets when we log in.

When we get closer to time, we will authorize one or both of our kids as well.

 

[retire48in2018]

We’ve had this issue at banks. Had the Durable POA, etc. The individual is incapacitated and then bank won’t accept paperwork. Wells Fargo was the worst. Legally, they can’t refuse, but no consequence if they don’t.

Insisted on someone coming into bank, signing their forms which strangely tried shifting liability from bank to us. The closest office was 4 hours away.
We had paper statements which showed us someone was “borrowing” and or stealing money after incapacitated with the atm card. Lots of auto transactions going on - $5 here & there. At least Wells Fargo stopped that card…

We had to move the person to hospice, we had to pay out of our pocket because we could not access the accounts. Then the individual passed away. Of course, POA is gone, etc. Wells Fargo is suddenly interested in talking to us…we told them they’d have to make an appointment in our town 4 hours away…

 

[RetMD21]

We needed two witnesses and a notary, but found that our Homeowner's Association would do that for free (since we pay over $1400/year to them, it's nice to get something for it other than a letter to trim a tree, which was really annoying since it was the neighbor's tree-but I digress). I do like how we now can both see all of our assets when we log in.

When we get closer to time, we will authorize one or both of our kids as well.

FWIW the limited agent authorization is easier to implement and it suffices for what I need from Vanguard on the folks I'm helping. I can't set up transfers to new bank accounts but I have access to the existing ones.

 

[Dtail]

We’ve had this issue at banks. Had the Durable POA, etc. The individual is incapacitated and then bank won’t accept paperwork. Wells Fargo was the worst. Legally, they can’t refuse, but no consequence if they don’t.

Insisted on someone coming into bank, signing their forms which strangely tried shifting liability from bank to us. The closest office was 4 hours away.
We had paper statements which showed us someone was “borrowing” and or stealing money after incapacitated with the atm card. Lots of auto transactions going on - $5 here & there. At least Wells Fargo stopped that card…

We had to move the person to hospice, we had to pay out of our pocket because we could not access the accounts. Then the individual passed away. Of course, POA is gone, etc. Wells Fargo is suddenly interested in talking to us…we told them they’d have to make an appointment in our town 4 hours away…

I thought the DPOA lasts after death?

 

[audreyh1]

I thought the DPOA lasts after death?

No, don’t think so.

 

[pb4uski]

No, the DPOA ends at the grantor's death. From that point forward it is the estate.

 

[SecondCor521]

I think it is shameful that some financial institutions will not accept a valid POA unless it is on their form. There really ought to be a law against that.

In numerous states there is: The Uniform Power of Attorney Act. https://www.uniformlaws.org/committ...-4a7c-947f-e5af0d6cb07c#LegBillTrackingAnchor. In my state's version, people generally have to accept POAs pretty quickly; if they don't they can be held liable for attorney fees and costs. See Section 120 of the model law.

Or if you're a TOD beneficiary, provide a letter of instructions and an account application if you don't have an account.

And a copy of the death certificate, of course.

 

[retire48in2018]

We were actually glad the POA ended. There were several parties that suddenly wanted things after death. Individual left all to one child (not us), nothing to siblings, husband, etc.

Husband wanted to sign a title of a vehicle over to him…others wanted….
It was easy to just say - POA expired. You’ll have to work it through probate or heir.

 

[bigcmagor]

We’ve had this issue at banks. Had the Durable POA, etc. The individual is incapacitated and then bank won’t accept paperwork. Wells Fargo was the worst. Legally, they can’t refuse, but no consequence if they don’t.

Insisted on someone coming into bank, signing their forms which strangely tried shifting liability from bank to us. The closest office was 4 hours away.
We had paper statements which showed us someone was “borrowing” and or stealing money after incapacitated with the atm card. Lots of auto transactions going on - $5 here & there. At least Wells Fargo stopped that card…

We had to move the person to hospice, we had to pay out of our pocket because we could not access the accounts. Then the individual passed away. Of course, POA is gone, etc. Wells Fargo is suddenly interested in talking to us…we told them they’d have to make an appointment in our town 4 hours away…

Similar experience with Wells Fargo. Submitted letters of incapacity along with trust documents and POA, which they would not accept. They demanded my parents complete WF internal forms and my position was once they were deemed incompetent, their signatures were no longer binding on any document. Otherwise, they may be compelled to sign virtually anything. After engaging an attorney to sabre rattle, they relented on the trust accounts but not the IRA's. I finally told them I was preparing to drive to the nursing home, load mom and dad into my car and proceed to the Fidelity office to have the three of us present to sign any document necessary to transfer their money. After four months of frustration, it took eight minutes after this call to finally gain full access.

 

[Dalmore]

We’ve had this issue at banks. Had the Durable POA, etc. The individual is incapacitated and then bank won’t accept paperwork. Wells Fargo was the worst. Legally, they can’t refuse, but no consequence if they don’t.
…

Wells Fargo is a nightmare. MIL & FIL had a checking account under their Trust. They started hassling MIL when she would deposit checks because the checks were made out in her name and not the Trust. So we decided to move the account to the local CU. They wouldn't cash out the account to her. They wanted both her and my FIL, who is bed ridden, to sign some documents in person. They also would not accept our POA documents.



Ameriprise Finanical is equally horrible. FIL recently passed away. The account manager was the rudest person I've ever encountered in a service capacity. Through no help of his, I found that I needed to speak to their Estate Services department. 12 phone calls, each one with a different response and form(s) that needed to be filled out. Some wouldn't tell me what forms were needed because I was not on the account, even though they acknowledged having the POA and death cert on file. One person wouldn't even give me the fax number to send in one of the many forms because I wasn't on the account!! Absolutely frustrating!

 

[KarenF]

No, I think that is a broadbased POA but is a springing POA... it springs into action and becomes operative only if the subject becomes incapacitated.

But if you go to use it what proof will you need to provide that the POA has indeed sprung?

Letters from 2 or 3 doctors will spring a POA or Trust.

 

[zippy2020]

It's always wise to ask ahead of time, and maybe even ask more than once. A Wells Fargo op offcr told us our trust documents with POA weren't enough, they wanted authorization on their own form. But a few years later, when I asked again - I was told, oh no, we accept your own POA.

!!!

 

[Dtail]

Perhaps if monies are enough, a threat to transfer all monies to a competitor can work.
I find in Florida that this tactic has worked in the past.

 

[brett]

I believe that some financial firms change their approach over time. Perhaps based on past legal issues, case outcomes. I did not have this issue with any financial institutions but somewhat surprisingly I did have it with an automobile insurer.

I have held POA a few times, and been an executor.

It has always surprised me that there are people and organizations that do not seem to understand that POA ends at death.

It would seem to me to be self evident that a deceased person can no longer provide/designate POA and that a POA document ends upon death of the principal.

 

[gauss]

In numerous states there is: The Uniform Power of Attorney Act. https://www.uniformlaws.org/committ...-4a7c-947f-e5af0d6cb07c#LegBillTrackingAnchor. In my state's version, people generally have to accept POAs pretty quickly; if they don't they can be held liable for attorney fees and costs. See Section 120 of the model law.

Wow! This is great news.

As it turns out, my own state just passed this law, finally, with an effective date of about 6 months from now.

In the past, I was under the impression that business were not required to honor POAs, but rather they could not be found liable for honoring them in good-faith, if they chose to honor it. (This was in contrast to court orders such as guardianships and conservatorships which are not discretionary)

This would seem to be a game changer in this area.

Thanks for the reference.

-gauss

 

[ncbill]

I setup revocable living trusts for the last couple of relatives whose affairs I managed after their terminal diagnoses.

Lawyer doing the above handled transferring real estate into the trust.

I transferred financial assets into the trust using the DPOA...no problems there.

If I had had a problem with any brokerage firm I would have just used the DPOA to setup accounts in their name at a more compliant brokerage & used ACATS to bring assets over to the new one which would not involve the old brokerage at all.

But I don't understand the "need to access their IRA online" after death.

The beneficiary would just submit the death certificate & setup an account in the beneficiary's name.

 

[gauss]

But I don't understand the "need to access their IRA online" after death.

This could be useful for the person filing the deceased individual's final tax return as there may have been taxable transactions during the year of death (prior to the actual death).

If the deceased individual also had "online statements" with no physical paper being mailed, this could further complicate things.

I think back in the 2014 2015 time frame yahoo! would not allow executors access to the deceased email accounts. This may have changed either by state law or yahoo! policy since then.

-gauss



-gauss