Use 3-way outlet in place of 2-way outlet

[Bamaman]

I just wish I could easily figure out how to wire a 3 way switch. Every time I think I have it right, one of the two wall switches won't work right.

The instructions are like reading a foreign language.

 

[OldShooter]

On a kind of related note, my home insurance company just got me a free “Ting” electric monitoring device. It looks for arc’ing and other anomalies in your home wiring, and uses wi-fi to report problems to you, and, if necessary, send an electrician to trouble-shoot and repair. I’m hoping it’s mine to keep and gets me a discount. Anyone else hear of or have this?

It looks to be a subscription thing. Your insurance company may have given you something that eats. I would also be interested in what fraction of house fires are caused by the particular dangerous villain in their ghost story.

 

[BasketCase24]

Well, my brother died in a house fire when I was 8. The culprit was electrical wiring, but in 1963 the electrical diagnostics were a far cry from today's technology. I figured it was free, and it was worth a try. I did realize that it was eventually going to be a subscription, but I'm hoping the discount would either offset that or the company would pick it up. If not, nothing ventured, nothing gained. So far it has been very accurate in tracking voltage changes through the day, and it quickly reported an outage when my wife unplugged the device.

 

[mountainsoft]

If you are asking this question, please please please hire an electrician!

I agree to an extent, but replacing an outlet isn't exactly rocket science. It's a simple job that most any homeowner should be able to tackle. I always find it a little irritating when people say "hire a professional" instead of "educate yourself and do it right". At some point every pro was an amateur just starting out. We all have to learn somewhere.

The only time I hire a professional is when I don't have a necessary tool for a job, or when I have no interest in how to do something (which is extremely rare).

 

[mountainsoft]

my home insurance company just got me a free “Ting” electric monitoring device. It looks for arc’ing and other anomalies in your home wiring, and uses wi-fi to report problems to you

I haven't heard of Ting, but these days Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters are required by code. They monitor electrical circuits for arcing due to frayed wires, bad connections, etc. and disconnect power at the breaker panel if a problem is detected. When we built our house in 2003 they were only required in bedrooms. Today they are required on nearly all 120V circuits.

https://homeinspectioninsider.com/common-questions-afci-requirements/

 

[NgineER]

Can a 20 amp outlet be used safely on a 15 amp circuit?

It should not be since it would allow you to use an appliance drawing higher current. Although, I have never seen an appliance with the “T” however, so that is not necessarily a deterrent.

 

[ERD50]

I agree to an extent, but replacing an outlet isn't exactly rocket science. It's a simple job that most any homeowner should be able to tackle. I always find it a little irritating when people say "hire a professional" instead of "educate yourself and do it right". At some point every pro was an amateur just starting out. We all have to learn somewhere.

The only time I hire a professional is when I don't have a necessary tool for a job, or when I have no interest in how to do something (which is extremely rare).

No, this isn't just "replacing an outlet". Did you read the OP and title? This is an upgrade from two wire un-grounded to three wire.


This is a major safety issue if not done correctly and understanding what is upstream. Not a "replacement".

-ERD50

 

[JoeWras]

If you get the "preferred" outlets (more dough) they have straight rear entry "clamp style" screw connections. The same wire length will go in and clamp securely with no need to wrap around a screw.

Yes. These are a good compromise for those of us who don't trust the stab, but also dislike the dexterity required to make a good loop for the side screws.

But, more expensive.

 

[ncbill]

Those back-stab (spring) connections hold up better than you think.

I've had to replace a number of outlets for a home constructed in the early 1970s where the original heating system was via electric baseboards.

The outlets installed above the baseboard had their plastic become brittle, crack & crumble over time because of their proximity to the baseboard heat.

But when I pulled them out, although the plastic came apart in my hands, the back-stab spring connections were still firmly in place after nearly 50 years!

 

[JoeWras]

Those back-stab (spring) connections hold up better than you think.

I've had to replace a number of outlets for a home constructed in the early 1970s where the original heating system was via electric baseboards.

The outlets installed above the baseboard had their plastic become brittle, crack & crumble over time because of their proximity to the baseboard heat.

But when I pulled them out, although the plastic came apart in my hands, the back-stab spring connections were still firmly in place after nearly 50 years!

I've experienced the same.

I guess what I don't like about the stabs is the small surface area that makes the connection.

 

[Time2]

I just replaced a 4 way ( ceiling light with 3 switches) wall switch that failed mechanically after 20 yrs. I’ve never seen the push in style connections before. Mine had the option of hooking the wire around the screw. I bought same brand and style switch on Amazon but the push-in connection was not secure at all so I used the side screw. I think it may have also had the option to clamp onto straight wire using the screw but I didn’t try that. Now I have another wall s
witch with an intermittent short but haven’t looked into yet.

Intermittent short or intermittent open?

 

[target2019]

Most homes that were wired 20 to 45 years old used push-in connections. Right or wrong, bad or good, most people are living in a home with push-in connections and don't even know it and have had no problems. Any connection can go bad including screw connections, I have seen many that have. My home is 40 years old and all wiring has the push-in connections and haven't had an issue. Maybe I'm lucky but no problems. If there is an issue the breaker should do it's job and detect the fault on open up that circuit.

You can buy them in most areas but you may have to go with specific 20 amp outlets which are designed with quick connect slots on the back for 12 gauge wiring. Standard outlets are rated for 15 amp/14 gauge wiring slots.

Can a 20 amp outlet be used safely on a 15 amp circuit?

It should not be since it would allow you to use an appliance drawing higher current. Although, I have never seen an appliance with the “T” however, so that is not necessarily a deterrent.

I've set up the question with original context so that it is easier to understand. Sometime between the posts it was mentioned that a 20 amp outlet would not be ok to use. What I will do is find the commercial outlet for 15 amp that has a screw down connection for use with a back stab.

Thanks for re-inforcing that.

 

[NgineER]

I have AWG 12 wiring in three separate outlets. Eash is installed as push connections, and I want to replace them. Problem is, there is no slack in the wiring. Therefore I need to use the push connections, and not screw terminals.

I have a 3-way outlet and it has AWG 12 push connections.

Will 3-way outlet function properly as a 2-way?

I didn't read the whole thread carefully, but you could measure to see if your box has sufficient ground, if it does you can use a regular 15 Amp outlet on the circuit and ground to the box. Use a tester and measure from your hot slot to the metal box. If your tester lights up you have sufficient ground.

If that does not work, use a GFCI outlet in the box and add the sticker (included in the box) saying that the outlet is not ground protected. You'd need to out a GFCI in each of the other outlets as well as you are wanting to protect each outlet.

In my experience the WAGO connectors work well and they can take up less space.

 

[Music Lover]

Yes. These are a good compromise for those of us who don't trust the stab, but also dislike the dexterity required to make a good loop for the side screws.

Needle nose pliers.

But, more expensive.

Sure, but plugs are cheap to begin with. More expensive could be $3 or $4 rather than $1.50.

 

[target2019]

I didn't read the whole thread carefully, but you could measure to see if your box has sufficient ground, if it does you can use a regular 15 Amp outlet on the circuit and ground to the box. Use a tester and measure from your hot slot to the metal box. If your tester lights up you have sufficient ground.

If that does not work, use a GFCI outlet in the box and add the sticker (included in the box) saying that the outlet is not ground protected. You'd need to out a GFCI in each of the other outlets as well as you are wanting to protect each outlet.

In my experience the WAGO connectors work well and they can take up less space.

Thanks again. GFCI is on my list too. I have other things going on, and this is not a priority at the mpment.

The series of outlets I'm looking at may have more than one problem to correct. I corrected one problem with an outlet, which was the gist of the thread.

There are certain deficiencies in the house built in the 70's. That's for sure.

 

[JoeWras]

Needle nose pliers.

Am I the only one who can make the loop, but then has a hard time putting the loop under the screw, which I've backed out to the point of nearly falling out?

I'm talking 12 gauge. 14 is easy. I especially have this problem when working on 30 or 40 year old 12 gauge wire which I swear is thicker than today's 12 gauge.

Sure, but plugs are cheap to begin with. More expensive could be $3 or $4 rather than $1.50.

Yeah, it isn't much until you get into big numbers. Some of the "better" outlets are even in the $2 something range. For most projects it pays to get the better outlet.

 

[OldShooter]

I haven't heard of Ting, but these days Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters are required by code. ...

Yes, that probably means that the Ting gadget is unnecessary where the panel has AF breakers.

From personal experience, though, I can tell you that the people who influence standards and codes the most are those with an economic interest in the result. I'd bet a very good lunch that the requirement for arc fault breakers was first proposed and then pushed by (gasp!) the people who make and sell these breakers. So I still have my curiosity about what fraction of home fires are cause by arcs. My guess is that the code requirement is not cost effective when one considers the increased costs for millions of homes versus the economic cost of fires prevented. To start with, NFPA says that only about 10% of home fires are due to "Electrical distribution and lighting equipment" -- just ahead of arson at 8%. (https://www.nfpa.org//-/media/Files...-reports/Building-and-life-safety/oshomes.pdf) So fires due to arcs are necessarily only a single-digit percentage of all home fires.

 

[Music Lover]

Am I the only one who can make the loop, but then has a hard time putting the loop under the screw, which I've backed out to the point of nearly falling out?

Strip 2" - 3" inches of wire to make it easier to loop and maneuver. Use the pliers to squeeze the loop together after it's under the screw, tighten it, then snip off the excess.

 

[JoeWras]

Strip 2" - 3" inches of wire to make it easier to loop and maneuver. Use the pliers to squeeze the loop together after it's under the screw, tighten it, then snip off the excess.

Ah, great advice for new work. I see how that would be helpful.

Perhaps it is because I'm usually working with 30 to 40 year old wiring, much of which has less than the 6" of slack specified. So, stripping more and cutting it off is just an unimaginable luxury in that situation.

But I'll keep that idea in mind for future new runs. Thanks!

 

[JoeWras]

From personal experience, though, I can tell you that the people who influence standards and codes the most are those with an economic interest in the result.

Ever wonder why Chicago doesn't allow PEX or plastic pipe in general? Ever wonder why Chicago doesn't allow Romex?

There's an answer, and OldShooter nailed it. "Economic Interest".

 

[Ronstar]

Ever wonder why Chicago doesn't allow PEX or plastic pipe in general? Ever wonder why Chicago doesn't allow Romex?

There's an answer, and OldShooter nailed it. "Economic Interest".

“Economic interest” is a politically correct way of describing it.

 

[RobbieB]

A 20 amp outlet is OK. If overloaded, the breaker will still pop or the fuse will still blow.

How many 15 amp outlets are wired into a 15 amp circuit? Probably 3 to 4. Yeah you can't have the microwave and the toaster going at the same time or the breaker will pop

 

[RetireeRobert]

So another electrical question, not quite related to OP's:

Is a circuit which is wired with 14 gauge wire ok to have a circuit breaker in the breaker box be a 20amp breaker? Or should the breaker be 15amp? (This is a house built in 2010.)

 

[OldShooter]

... Is a circuit which is wired with 14 gauge wire ok to have a circuit breaker in the breaker box be a 20amp breaker? ...

Absolutely not. The breaker must be 15 amps (or less ).

 

[Music Lover]

Absolutely not. The breaker must be 15 amps (or less ).

Exactly. The breaker can't exceed the rating of the wire. 14 gauge wire is rated 15 amp, 12 gauge is rated 20 amp.