Will update

[Stormy Kromer]

DW & I just got back from the attorney's office. It took us a little over a year since we first started talking about it, but today we finalized our new wills. Our old wills were 22 years old when both kids were in diapers, they had many codicils and were outdated. We also placed all real estate and investments that don't have a beneficiary into trusts. This way they'll avoid probate, plus, Estate Tax is a concern in Minnesota. We did the POA's and Health Care directives too. Reviewed all beneficiaries and contingent beneficiaries. I can't believe how many updates we needed to make, and I thought I was on top of everything.

I'm confident we're ready to get old now.

I have a 3 page letter of instructions for each of our 2 children on where things are and who to contact. They'll each get a copy of all the above mentioned paperwork, along with information on how to access our original copies.

I gave them some very simple investment advice. "Take all the money and put it in your Vanguard Accounts" I suggested putting it all in the Target 2065 Fund and get back to work, and when you're ready to withdraw, never draw more than 4%. I wanted to suggest one fund that they could set in place for life and not think too much or rely on a FA to manage what they can do themselves without paying 1.5% a year. I think this is a good recommendation. People have written books on how to handle this situation, I think the kids are more likely to follow this one sentence suggestion, plus it will be hard to beat over the next 40 years.

This evening we'll fix a toddy and burn our old wills in the outdoor fireplace.

 

[Dtail]

This setup is in our plans for this year. Would you mind disclosing the attorney fees for this work? I realize it can be a wide range depending where one resides and who they use.

 

[Bamaman]

Unfortunately, life has many turns and twists, and there are often many will revisions in one's life.

 

[38Chevy454]

Good for you getting the updating done. DW and I just updated our trust docs last fall, especially since the move to another state and other changes to be documented in the trust/wills/POAs. Better to be prepared now, than try to catch up later.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

This setup is in our plans for this year. Would you mind disclosing the attorney fees for this work? I realize it can be a wide range depending where one resides and who they use.

We're in the Washington, DC metropolitan area (MD suburbs), and two years ago we paid $4,800 for a full estate plan for both of us, including general and financial POAs, advance directives, health care agent, revocable living trusts, wills, and other instructions like disposition of our remains.

If anyone in the area is looking, I highly recommend them. PM me if you want more information.

 

[joeea]

DW & I just got back from the attorney's office. It took us a little over a year since we first started talking about it, but today we finalized our new wills. Our old wills were 22 years old when both kids were in diapers, they had many codicils and were outdated. We also placed all real estate and investments that don't have a beneficiary into trusts. This way they'll avoid probate, plus, Estate Tax is a concern in Minnesota. We did the POA's and Health Care directives too. Reviewed all beneficiaries and contingent beneficiaries. I can't believe how many updates we needed to make, and I thought I was on top of everything.

Good for you for getting everything up to date.

It's a good reminder for me to check our wills. We do that periodically, but my wife and I haven't updated our wills for a while. I'm pretty sure that everything is still appropriate.

But we just recently moved to a new state. I'm pretty sure there is nothing in our wills that will be invalid in our new residence, but I'll check. I'll have to find out if our healthcare directives are state-specific as well.

I had been planning on establishing a trust, but with the far better estate tax rules in this state, I no longer see a need.

I have a 3 page letter of instructions for each of our 2 children on where things are and who to contact. They'll each get a copy of all the above mentioned paperwork, along with information on how to access our original copies.

When will you give them this document? Now? Or wait until your demise?

 

[HI Bill]

I've used WillMaker Pro, but ~98.5% of my assets are in accounts with beneficiaries identified. So, the only things not covered are physical assets and checking and savings accounts.

I also used the software to make POAs for my mom, etc. For many people, in many states, you can forego the lawyer's expensive plans. You do need to have the will notarized and/or witnessed in many states.

 

[RetireBy90]

Good for you for getting everything up to date.

But we just recently moved to a new state. I'm pretty sure there is nothing in our wills that will be invalid in our new residence, but I'll check. I'll have to find out if our healthcare directives are state-specific as well.

I reside in VA and was told that the executor had to reside in VA also. However, I was the executor for mom's will and she lived in Nevada. So restrictions on executor is something to check out according to your state.

 

[Dash man]

I've used WillMaker Pro, but ~98.5% of my assets are in accounts with beneficiaries identified. So, the only things not covered are physical assets and checking and savings accounts.

I also used the software to make POAs for my mom, etc. For many people, in many states, you can forego the lawyer's expensive plans. You do need to have the will notarized and/or witnessed in many states.

A caution about these software generated wills and POAs is you don’t know what you don’t know. IMHO you get what you pay for.

 

[HI Bill]

A caution about these software generated wills and POAs is you don’t know what you don’t know. IMHO you get what you pay for.

The software follows the laws of each state with regards to the requirements for them to be legal. Yes, they're generic, but can be customized. After having just gone through probate, paying a probate lawyer, and dealing with TOD assets as well as a will, I'd say that if you follow the directions explicitely, they're fine for 95% of Americans. Pretty sure if I was a one-percenter, I'd pay $20K or so for something much more comlicated and necessary.

Many on this forum have their real estate set up with either a trust of a dual-title, and most of our assets are in beneficiary-designated accounts. For those few that have super-complicated assets (companies, multiple land holdings, in multiple countries, etc.,), I'd certainly pay a lawyer for one. But what I've been seeing in the news lately, is that even if you have a solid will, the court, or the appointed executor can make a significant difference in whether or how well the intent is carried out. Many times, paid executors don't have the beneficiary's best interest entirely at heart.

 

[Dash man]

One problem with just a will is when the first of a couple dies, the surviving spouse can change their will to whatever they want. A trust can take care of a lot of “what if’s?” An experienced attorney can ask a lot of questions and offer suggestions on how best to handle specific situations in your life. It’s not just a matter of following state laws, but ensuring the people you want to have your assets get them. What if your beneficiaries pass on and you, due to aging, dementia, coma...whatever, are not able to change your will. Would you want your daughter/son-in-law to get the assets or your grandkids? Who will manage your assets if your spouse has passed and you are unable to? Will that person use the assets for your benefit or be a miser waiting for you to pass so they get the funds? A good attorney will ask these and many more questions. A software application won’t.

 

[joeea]

I reside in VA and was told that the executor had to reside in VA also. However, I was the executor for mom's will and she lived in Nevada. So restrictions on executor is something to check out according to your state.

Who told you that your executor must reside in VA? Your estate lawyer?

I know that isn't the case for my prior state. I'll look into it for my current state, but I've never heard of that issue for anyone.

Just checked - no special restrictions or requirements on out of state executors for my state.

 

[HI Bill]

Who will manage your assets if your spouse has passed and you are unable to? Will that person use the assets for your benefit or be a miser waiting for you to pass so they get the funds? A good attorney will ask these and many more questions. A software application won’t.

Correct. But even if the question is asked, and answered, the executor usually has broad discretion. You can't plan for every contingency, but you can transfer assets while you're alive, if you're that concerned about it!

Here's a real-life soap opera, if you want to see how complicated things can get for Abigail Kinoiki Kekaulike Kawānanakoa (from Wikipedia):

"On 1 October 2017, Kawānanakoa married Veronica Gail Worth, in Honolulu. In 2017 Kawānanakoa had a medical episode. In a handwritten letter by her to the media, she explained her firing of her former attorney James Wright. Wright, a trustee for the multimillion dollar Abigail K. K. Kawananakoa Revocable Living Trust has made accusations that Worth has abused her 92 year old spouse however, Michael Rudy, Worth’s attorney has denied the allegations and questioned the photos provided." Lawsuits, challenges to living trusts, and questions of Kawānanakoa's ability to make her own decisions. It's the lawyers who are making out in this case.

 

[Dash man]

Correct. But even if the question is asked, and answered, the executor usually has broad discretion.

No, the executor does not have broad discretion if is properly written. In our trusts, our attorney is identified as a Trust Protector, who can remove a trustee if the beneficiaries of the trust find the trustee is not following our written instructions. Anyone who challenges our trust or will are explicitly barred from receiving any of our assets. We have two trustees. One is USAA Trust Management Co., and one is my sister-in-law. USAA manages and distributes all financial assets, while my SIL manages personal property and assists USAA in any other way they may need her to. We protect our two boys, our three grandchildren, DW’s parents for assisted living/nursing home care (up to a limit), our two daughters-in-law get some funds to care for themselves if they are still married to our sons if our sons pass. Second husbands for a daughter-in-law can’t touch the funds set aside for grandkids. The trusts are well worth the $4,500 they cost. No where near the $20k you mentioned earlier.
It sounds like you’re satisfied with your setup, but I doubt it’s right for 95% of the people. Everyone has a different situation and they don’t know the questions to ask. Guidance of a good attorney is worth every penny.

 

[RetireBy90]

Who told you that your executor must reside in VA? Your estate lawyer?

I know that isn't the case for my prior state. I'll look into it for my current state, but I've never heard of that issue for anyone.

Just checked - no special restrictions or requirements on out of state executors for my state.

We had our first wills prepared by Army lawyers as part of our package if deployed while in VA. I had wanted to designate my brother in NV but the lawyer said VA required it to be someone that resides in VA.



Now past the jokes about Army lawyers, they do quite a bit of will preparation as you can imagine. This one asked many questions we never thought of before. Things may have changed, just something to check.

 

[joeea]

We had our first wills prepared by Army lawyers as part of our package if deployed while in VA. I had wanted to designate my brother in NV but the lawyer said VA required it to be someone that resides in VA.



Now past the jokes about Army lawyers, they do quite a bit of will preparation as you can imagine. This one asked many questions we never thought of before. Things may have changed, just something to check.

Yup. In virginia apparently you can name a non-resident executor, who must then name an in-state agent.
"In Virginia, a nonresident executor must appoint someone who lives in the state to act as an agent."

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/virginia-restrictions-who-can-serve-executor.html

Something worth checking.

 

[brett]

We upadated our wills, directives, POA's last year. It had been ten years. Lots of change in our lives. No trusts involved. Very straightforward since most assets are identified, liquid, etc. Both times the fees were under $1000.

Prior to doing our first wills ten years ago we bought a will kit. We had no intention of doing our own wills. The kit was for our own edification and preparation for our first meeting.

The cost of having the wills done properly far outweighed any potential saving in a DIY job. The savings can easily be eaten up just by an executor or one of our children having to seek some legal advice or direction post our demise. We keep a separate asset and password sheet in our safe deposit box that is updated every year. Our children have access to the the box.

I am a big believer in seeking qualified professional advice for certain things. Like wills and taxes. In our experience it there are significant savings to be had by seeking out qualified people who can complete engagements in a timely and correct fashion. It can be very expensive to fix DIY errors.

 

[gwraigty]

I've used WillMaker Pro, but ~98.5% of my assets are in accounts with beneficiaries identified. So, the only things not covered are physical assets and checking and savings accounts.

I also used the software to make POAs for my mom, etc. For many people, in many states, you can forego the lawyer's expensive plans. You do need to have the will notarized and/or witnessed in many states.

+1

Why don't you have beneficiaries on your checking and savings accounts? We do.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Good for you for getting everything up to date.

It's a good reminder for me to check our wills. We do that periodically, but my wife and I haven't updated our wills for a while. I'm pretty sure that everything is still appropriate.

But we just recently moved to a new state. I'm pretty sure there is nothing in our wills that will be invalid in our new residence, but I'll check. I'll have to find out if our healthcare directives are state-specific as well.

I had been planning on establishing a trust, but with the far better estate tax rules in this state, I no longer see a need.


When will you give them this document? Now? Or wait until your demise?

We will give both of our children a copy of the 3 page letter along with copies of the wills, trusts, POA and medical directives the next time we go visit each of them. We're going to buy each of them small home safes to keep them in.

We set them both up as co-executors of everything. I've seen situations where one sibling turns into a power control freak if they hold sole authority and we want to avoid that.

The cost for the legal work is going to be in the $5k range. I consider this a good investment to avoid probate, let alone the MN state inheritance taxes.

 

[joeea]

We will give both of our children a copy of the 3 page letter along with copies of the wills, trusts, POA and medical directives the next time we go visit each of them.

IMHO, that makes the most sense.

I believe there should be no surprises in a will.

We set them both up as co-executors of everything. I've seen situations where one sibling turns into a power control freak if they hold sole authority and we want to avoid that.

What did your attorney say about that? I know some that advise against having co-executors.

 

[Cobra9777]

Texas allows TOD for real estate and motor vehicles. So this is all jointly owned with TOD to our 2 kids 50/50. Likewise, all financial assets are either jointly owned with TOD to the kids, or individually owned with spouse as primary beneficiary and kids as 50/50 contingent (and per stirpes). In Texas, household goods can be informally divided by surviving family if that's the only thing left in the estate.

We each have wills, including living will and durable POA, that we did a few years ago on LegalZoom for a couple hundred dollars. We like the living will and durable POA. But with the set-up above, the will itself would never be used for anything as nothing would go through probate. When one of us dies, the survivor gets everything. If we both die at the same time, the kids get everything 50/50.

After one of us is gone, the survivor can change whatever they want. Our intent is to spend down to zero. But if anything is left at the end, we are aligned that it should go to our 2 kids and grandkids 50/50 (thus the per stirpes designation on financial accounts).

Admittedly, our situation is very straightforward... adult children, no prior marriages, no business assets, no complicated scenarios, and unlikely to exceed estate tax threshold. So a DIY approach using beneficiary designations seems fine for us. I would have no hesitation seeking professional assistance for a more complicated situation, or if we lived in a state with no TOD for real estate.

 

[OldShooter]

I've used WillMaker Pro ... the only things not covered are physical assets and checking and savings accounts. ...

A caution about these software generated wills and POAs is you don’t know what you don’t know. ...

Exactly!

H. L. Mencken told us: “For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat and wrong.”

As a charter member of the Loyal Order of Cheapskates I am strongly attracted to DIY, but not in this case. DW spent 30 years in a megabank Trusts & Estates job, retiring as an SVP and business unit manager. I have heard many horror stories, including ones caused by defective documents drafted by non-specialist attorneys.

Look at it this way, if you have a modest estate -- say $500K -- and you pay what we did, $4500, for our estate plan, that is less than 1%. A pittance compared to the risk of problems that will not be discovered until you are on the wrong side of the grass and cannot fix them.

 

[zinger1457]

The saying 'you don't know what you don't know' applies to attorneys also. How does one know if the attorney they are using is covering all the bases? My parents had a will drawn up by an estate attorney and it was very inadequate IMO. Even if using an attorney using products like Willmaker is a good way to educate yourself beforehand on many of the options available.

 

[brett]

I had occasion to spend time with a family and estate lawyer. My parents did not have a large estate but he was familiar with their situation and their will.

He had a question for me that he asked of all people he dealt with who either had wills or their loved ones had wills. He wanted to know why both my parents had wills when so many others in their situation did not.

I asked him why he asked. He commented that he had far too many clients who were dealing with no wills, poorly made wills, contested wills. He said the cost of not having a proper one was huge-financially and emotionally. It was not uncommon for some of them, even the less complicated ones, to stretch out for more that 2 years. The emotional cost on the family, was often far greater than the legal cost.

 

[OldShooter]

The saying 'you don't know what you don't know' applies to attorneys also. How does one know if the attorney they are using is covering all the bases? My parents had a will drawn up by an estate attorney and it was very inadequate IMO. Even if using an attorney using products like Willmaker is a good way to educate yourself beforehand on many of the options available.

In our market, the city magazine annually publishes a list of "Superlawyers" as rated by their peers. Another hands-off option is to interview estate specialists at bigger law firms, where the firm itself is doing some QC before an attorney is hired into he estate department. Beyond that, good old networking: Call friends, CPAs, general practice attorneys, ask for suggestions. Solo practice attorneys are like stocks: more risk. You could win big or lose big.

Re learning, there is never anything wrong with that. A good attorney wants well-informed clients and it could well save you money.

Worst option is to go to the free dinner presentations. All this will get you is guys and gals who do not have enough referral business and you can guess the reason for that.