403b early withdraw option? Anyone with experience?

[whitewitch]

Hi, I am new to this community and hopefully my questions do not sound stupid. I've searched tons of websites and searched in this forum, but I am still not sure whether my decision is good and hope anyone who has done it could give me some advice.

My questions are:
1. based on this website, especially the example in the paragraph "The Power of this Strategy" and "Tax-free 401(k)", if I put my money in 403b (pre-tax), I could have early withdraw by converting to a traditional IRA, then transferring to a Roth IRA after I separate from my employer. After 5 years pass, I could withdraw the first conversion without paying any tax or penalty. Am I right? This strategy definitely applies to 403(b), right?

2. Based on the same article, it suggest people to fund pre-tax 403b first because that will end up more money (like the investor A in the example) in the end. Does this make sense to you?

I am in the tax bracket of 12% together with my husband. I have enough cash on hand before my husband finds a job. Instead of investing in the stock market that might be taxed again, I am thinking to put all my salary after expense to max out 403(b) and (roth)IRA to save on tax based on the strategy from the first question. And my plan is maybe one day, we could retire early and have access to our retirement account without any penalty. Am I too naive on this? Is there anything/fee that I am not aware of?

I am sorry my question might sound too elementary or stupid. This is my first time having a retirement account in US. Depositing that much of money in an account that I am not able to withdraw freely makes me nervous. I really would like to plan any possible outcome so I don't wind up losing them. Thank you in advance

 

[Markola]

There are no stupid questions. This stuff is complicated so keeping it simple is often the best choice.

What is your age and how long do you intend to work?

 

[whitewitch]

There are no stupid questions. This stuff is complicated so keeping it simple is often the best choice.

Are you working for a nonprofit or educational organization? That’s the only way to have access to a 403b. If so, the only way to pull dollars out of your 403b is to leave your job.

You haven’t provided enough information about your situation or age, how much you have to invest, etc. for internet strangers like us to help more than confuse you. Doing nothing at all until you can fully research your options, including talking to a fee-only financial planner, is likely the safest route. Good luck.

Hi Markola, thanks for reply.
Yes I am working at a university. So based on your reply and the info I researched earlier, there is an early withdraw option when I leave my job and decide to retire early, like the way for 401k. Am I correct?

I am really not sure whether I could assume the rule for 401k and the way for early withdraw is the same for 403b. From the stuff that I read, it seems they are the same but people also use vague words like maybe, possibly etc to describe it. I am wondering whether there is any additional rule for early withdraw 403b.

I am 39. My husband and I roughly spend half of my salary for daily expenses and I plan to use up the other half to max out my 403b and IRA to invest in retirement account to save on tax before my husband finds a job. We have 100k in saving so it seems ok if there is an emergency that needs money. Not sure whether my plan is too crazy....

 

[cathy63]

Hi, I am new to this community and hopefully my questions do not sound stupid. I've searched tons of websites and searched in this forum, but I am still not sure whether my decision is good and hope anyone who has done it could give me some advice.

Welcome!

My questions are:
1. based on this website, especially the example in the paragraph "The Power of this Strategy" and "Tax-free 401(k)", if I put my money in 403b (pre-tax), I could have early withdraw by converting to a traditional IRA, then transferring to a Roth IRA after I separate from my employer. After 5 years pass, I could withdraw the first conversion without paying any tax or penalty. Am I right? This strategy definitely applies to 403(b), right?

Yes, you can rollover a 403b account into a traditional IRA. You can also do conversions from a tIRA to a Roth IRA. You can withdraw the converted funds after 5 years with no penalty. If you reach age 59 1/2 before 5 years have passed, then you can also withdraw the converted funds with no penalty as long as you've had a Roth IRA for at least 5 years. For that reason, it's advisable to open a Roth sooner than later, even if you aren't able to fund it with much money right away.

2. Based on the same article, it suggest people to fund pre-tax 403b first because that will end up more money (like the investor A in the example) in the end. Does this make sense to you?

I am in the tax bracket of 12% together with my husband. I have enough cash on hand before my husband finds a job. Instead of investing in the stock market that might be taxed again, I am thinking to put all my salary after expense to max out 403(b) and (roth)IRA to save on tax based on the strategy from the first question. And my plan is maybe one day, we could retire early and have access to our retirement account without any penalty. Am I too naive on this? Is there anything/fee that I am not aware of?

I am sorry my question might sound too elementary or stupid. This is my first time having a retirement account in US. Depositing that much of money in an account that I am not able to withdraw freely makes me nervous. I really would like to plan any possible outcome so I don't wind up losing them. Thank you in advance

12% is a fairly low tax bracket, possibly lower than you'll have in retirement. Some of MadFIentist's recommendations are more applicable to people who are in much higher brackets while working. My recommendations for your situation would be:
- Make sure you have a solid emergency fund in a savings account or taxable brokerage account (invested conservatively) that you can access quickly.
- Put just enough in your 403b to get all of the employer match, if any.
- Then maximize your contributions to Roth IRAs for you and your husband. Even if he's not working, you can make a spousal contribution to his account.
- If there's anything left, put that in the 403b up to the max allowed.

Your money is not really inaccessible, even in a retirement account. If you get desperate, you can always get the contributions out of the Roth IRAs without penalty. If you get super desperate, you can take a loan from the 403b. Only after those possibilities are exhausted would you have to worry about the 10% penalty on early withdrawals.

 

[whitewitch]

There are no stupid questions. This stuff is complicated so keeping it simple is often the best choice.

What is your age and how long do you intend to work?

I don't have the number in mind for how long I intend to work yet. I love my current job but I just hope I could be financial independent someday that I could have more flexibility to choose how long to work and what to work.

However, based on my financial situation, it projects ~10 years I still need to work to become financial independence.
(that's a long road. I am a little bit late to know there is a financial independence kind of thing. But one says it's never too late to plan/invest)

 

[Markola]

I don't have the number in mind for how long I intend to work yet. I love my current job but I just hope I could be financial independent someday that I could have more flexibility to choose how long to work and what to work.



However, based on my financial situation, it projects ~10 years I still need to work to become financial independence.

(that's a long road. I am a little bit late to know there is a financial independence kind of thing. But one says it's never too late to plan/invest)

Cathy63’s comments are good, accurate and one way to go. To me, even simpler is to focus initially on maxing out your 403b contributions as quickly as your finances allow. Do you have Target Date mutual funds in your 403b plan? Those are simplest will do a good job for you.

It seems you already have a very solid emergency fund with your $100,000. Nice work. Once your husband has a job, you might decide how to invest some of that money so that it grows, whether buying a Vanguard Total Stock Index Fund, which generates minimal taxes, or using it to max out Roth IRAs every year, as Cathy63 suggested.

Once your husband is working, if he can aim to maximize whatever retirement plans are available to him, you’ll really be compounding your wealth.

Finally, if you work until the year in which you turn age 55, you can resign your job at that time and access your 403b without penalty. It’s a loophole called the Rule of 55. I am 55 and am using this rule right now myself. Most 403b plans allow the Rule of 55 but you will want to double check it with your own employer.

I hope some of these alternatives help.

 

[pb4uski]

....Based on the same article, it suggest people to fund pre-tax 403b first because that will end up more money (like the investor A in the example) in the end. Does this make sense to you?

I am in the tax bracket of 12% together with my husband. ...

If you and your husband are currently in the 12% tax bracket, I would go with a Roth 403(b) rather than a traditional 403(b).

The main reason for pre-tax contributions is if you expect to be in a substantially lower tax bracket when you retire. So for example, many of us here were in the 28% tax bracket while working and expect to be in the 12% or 22% tax bracket in retirement so to avoid paying 28% back then and pay 12% or 22% now is a big deal because of the 16% or 6% difference in tax rates.

However, unless you expect to not be paying any taxes in retirement the first tax bracket is 10% and 12% comes quickly thereafter, so it doesn't make sense to be to avoid paying 12% now to pay 10% or 12% later... only a 2% or 0% difference in tax rates.... so go with a Roth and after-tax savings.

Then when you retire you can rollover to a Roth IRA and you can withdraw contributions tax-free until you are 59 1/2 and then you can withdraw anything tax free (assumes that the Roth IRA has been in place for at least 5 years).

 

[Lagniappe]

OP, do you plan to retire in the US?

If not, research the tax treaty with the country you plan to retire to. Some countries don't recognize Roth's, so you end up paying tax on them twice.

 

[whitewitch]

Thank you Markola and cathy63 for your advice. Appreciate it.

And Markola, thanks! It's always nice to know that someone has done it without any problem. That puts my mind to rest.

 

[Bryan Barnfellow]

OP, do you plan to retire in the US?

If not, research the tax treaty with the country you plan to retire to. Some countries don't recognize Roth's, so you end up paying tax on them twice.

I live in one of those countries. Roths and tIRAs, are taxed here as regular income.

-BB

 

[whitewitch]

However, unless you expect to not be paying any taxes in retirement the first tax bracket is 10% and 12% comes quickly thereafter, so it doesn't make sense to be to avoid paying 12% now to pay 10% or 12% later... only a 2% or 0% difference in tax rates.... so go with a Roth and after-tax savings.

I think this is the part that I am confused and do not know how to decide. I read the book "Quit Like a Millionaire". The author described how they managed paying 0% tax when they retire early by relying on the dividends they get (because dividends are taxed at lower rate than employment income. The tax rate on qualified dividends is 0%, when incomes is 0-80k). And also talked about the withdrawing from tax-deferred account tax-free.

Let's say if I max out my t403b every year now, those money is not taxed, even not with the 12% in my tax bracket. When the time I quit my job and decide to retire early with my husband (assume that our salary = 0), I could rollover my money to tIRA and then only transfer my standard deduction ($24,800 for tax year 2020 for example) to Roth IRA. If I continue to do that every year, once the money is in my Roth IRA for 5 years, I could withdraw it (tax free maybe?). Eventually, all the money in t403 originally is never taxed.

My husband and I think this is too good to be true. However, in the book and from your advices, it's also suggested to go with Roth 403b instead of t403b. It's either the plan that I describe above won't work or I misunderstand some of the methods that the book describes?

 

[whitewitch]

OP, do you plan to retire in the US?

If not, research the tax treaty with the country you plan to retire to. Some countries don't recognize Roth's, so you end up paying tax on them twice.

wow, I never thought of this. We plan to retire in US but who knows. Great tip! I will definitely research in this direction, too.

 

[whitewitch]

I live in one of those countries. Roths and tIRAs, are taxed here as regular income.

-BB

Wow, that sounds terrible that you have to be taxed twice. It's not fair!

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

I think this is the part that I am confused and do not know how to decide. I read the book "Quit Like a Millionaire". The author described how they managed paying 0% tax when they retire early by relying on the dividends they get (because dividends are taxed at lower rate than employment income. The tax rate on qualified dividends is 0%, when incomes is 0-80k). And also talked about the withdrawing from tax-deferred account tax-free.

Let's say if I max out my t403b every year now, those money is not taxed, even not with the 12% in my tax bracket. When the time I quit my job and decide to retire early with my husband (assume that our salary = 0), I could rollover my money to tIRA and then only transfer my standard deduction ($24,800 for tax year 2020 for example) to Roth IRA. If I continue to do that every year, once the money is in my Roth IRA for 5 years, I could withdraw it (tax free maybe?). Eventually, all the money in t403 originally is never taxed.

My husband and I think this is too good to be true. However, in the book and from your advices, it's also suggested to go with Roth 403b instead of t403b. It's either the plan that I describe above won't work or I misunderstand some of the methods that the book describes?

If you effect a Roth conversion in the amount of your standard deduction each year in your early retirement, and if that is your only income, than, yes, it would be free of tax. My question is: What will you do to buy food and shelter that year? If that is your only income, how will you eat?

 

[Markola]

The “Quit Like a Millionaire” book is a good book. The authors are Canadians, where the rules are different, so be sure that information applies in the U.S. (I don’t remember that part of the book well enough to say.)

 

[cathy63]

I think this is the part that I am confused and do not know how to decide. I read the book "Quit Like a Millionaire". The author described how they managed paying 0% tax when they retire early by relying on the dividends they get (because dividends are taxed at lower rate than employment income. The tax rate on qualified dividends is 0%, when incomes is 0-80k). And also talked about the withdrawing from tax-deferred account tax-free.

Let's say if I max out my t403b every year now, those money is not taxed, even not with the 12% in my tax bracket. When the time I quit my job and decide to retire early with my husband (assume that our salary = 0), I could rollover my money to tIRA and then only transfer my standard deduction ($24,800 for tax year 2020 for example) to Roth IRA. If I continue to do that every year, once the money is in my Roth IRA for 5 years, I could withdraw it (tax free maybe?). Eventually, all the money in t403 originally is never taxed.

My husband and I think this is too good to be true. However, in the book and from your advices, it's also suggested to go with Roth 403b instead of t403b. It's either the plan that I describe above won't work or I misunderstand some of the methods that the book describes?

You do understand how the Roth conversion strategy works, and it's true that in theory you can get all that money out without paying any tax. However, in practice there are a few wrinkles.

The standard deduction for a single person is just below the federal poverty line, and it's not that far above the line for a married couple. Most people want a lifestyle that costs more money than that. And you also you can't touch the first Roth conversions penalty-free for 5 years, so you need enough after-tax savings to provide the qualified dividends and long-term capital gains that will be all of your spending money for the first 5 years plus the bulk of it after that. Getting the right amount of money in the tax-deferred vs after-tax accounts is the really hard part of this plan, so it's good that you're thinking about it now.

What age do you plan to retire at? As an exercise, imagine that you are that age now and have been following this savings plan since your actual current age. What are your expenses for this first year of retirement (don't forget to include health insurance)? Assuming your expenses stay steady over the years, how much money do you need in the t403b vs your taxable account to support yourself for however long you expect to live? That'll give you some rough idea of your savings goals and you can adjust your spending down or retirement age upward until you have something that makes sense to you.

Remember also, that while you're working and saving money in your taxable account to live on later, your tax bracket will rise as your career progresses and your salary goes up. Dividends and LT cap gains in that account will likely be taxed at 20% for most of your working life. If you do the math, you'll probably find that paying 12% on the money you put into a Roth account now is a better deal than paying 20% on gains in a taxable account during your working years. Also, the money you put into the Roth now is contributions, and you can get those back the day you retire, no need to wait 5 years.

The recommendation to contribute to Roths for now is not a permanent one. It's based on your being in a low tax bracket today. When your husband finds a good job and you've both progressed at work and are earning higher salaries, then you'll want to reevaluate. If you'd be paying 28% tax on the money you put into a Roth, then the t403b and the taxable account look more attractive.

 

[whitewitch]

Remember also, that while you're working and saving money in your taxable account to live on later, your tax bracket will rise as your career progresses and your salary goes up. Dividends and LT cap gains in that account will likely be taxed at 20% for most of your working life. ....Also, the money you put into the Roth now is contributions, and you can get those back the day you retire, no need to wait 5 years.

The recommendation to contribute to Roths for now is not a permanent one. .......

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Really appreciate it. I finally understand why most of people suggest to go first with an Roth account when in a lower tax bracket. Previously, I thought the tax bracket for LT capital gain is calculated completely separated from the income tax. However, each of the capital gain bracket is regular income and capital gain combined (taxable income from IRS). And I did not take into account that as I accumulate wealth for retirement, those capital gain will be taxed while I am still working.

So I guess a general guideline would be if my tax bracket now is <15% (assuming our predicted future taxable income is >$80k (in 2020 for example), I should fund Roth 403b and Roth IRA, including spousal Roth IRA rather than a traditional ones.

 

[RobLJ]

Hi Markola, thanks for reply.
Yes I am working at a university. So based on your reply and the info I researched earlier, there is an early withdraw option when I leave my job and decide to retire early, like the way for 401k. Am I correct?

I am really not sure whether I could assume the rule for 401k and the way for early withdraw is the same for 403b. From the stuff that I read, it seems they

I don't have much wisdom in terms of the comparative benefits of contributing to the 403b versus 403b Roth, other than you have to make assumptions about your tax rates before/after retirement.
However, I retired from the State of Texas with a 403b under the "rule of 80", which is you can retire and make withdrawals without penalty when your age plus years of service total 80 or more (more importantly, you then qualify for state retirement medical benefits). I was 57 and qualified at 56, although I didn't actually make 403b withdrawals until I was 60, since I taught a half-load online under a "voluntary modified employment agreement) for half my normal salary. They made me an offer I couldn't refuse since we wanted to move close to the soon-to-be grandkids in the Cali Central Valley.

You probably should talk to your benefits coordinator, since--importantly--this was Texas and each state/andor Uni plan will probably differ on whether/how you can qualify to make early withdrawals, same with medical.

 

[chassis]

Hi, I am new to this community and hopefully my questions do not sound stupid. I've searched tons of websites and searched in this forum, but I am still not sure whether my decision is good and hope anyone who has done it could give me some advice.

My questions are:
1. based on this website, especially the example in the paragraph "The Power of this Strategy" and "Tax-free 401(k)", if I put my money in 403b (pre-tax), I could have early withdraw by converting to a traditional IRA, then transferring to a Roth IRA after I separate from my employer. After 5 years pass, I could withdraw the first conversion without paying any tax or penalty. Am I right? This strategy definitely applies to 403(b), right?

2. Based on the same article, it suggest people to fund pre-tax 403b first because that will end up more money (like the investor A in the example) in the end. Does this make sense to you?

I am in the tax bracket of 12% together with my husband. I have enough cash on hand before my husband finds a job. Instead of investing in the stock market that might be taxed again, I am thinking to put all my salary after expense to max out 403(b) and (roth)IRA to save on tax based on the strategy from the first question. And my plan is maybe one day, we could retire early and have access to our retirement account without any penalty. Am I too naive on this? Is there anything/fee that I am not aware of?

I am sorry my question might sound too elementary or stupid. This is my first time having a retirement account in US. Depositing that much of money in an account that I am not able to withdraw freely makes me nervous. I really would like to plan any possible outcome so I don't wind up losing them. Thank you in advance

@whitewitch another option for you to withdraw 403b, 401k or IRA money is through what is known as a 72(t) withdrawal, using Substantially Equal Periodic Payments (SEPP). The IRS has documentation for you to read. Google will find it, or you can search the IRS site. The annual withdrawal amount is in the neighborhood of 4% of the starting account balance.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plan...garding-substantially-equal-periodic-payments

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

OP
If you are in the 12% bracket, go ROTH 403B all the way.

You don't mention your state of residence, but I too work for a College/University (in NY) and if I were you I would a) Max out the ROTH 403(B) (yes, I am doing this). and a) is done contribute to a ROTH 457 plan. I can't say for sure your situation, but where I am I can do both 403 and 457 (assuming enough income).

Now, my glitch is that my school doesn't participate in a Roth 457, only traditional. So my approach (even at a much higher marginal tax bracket) is to a) Max out 403(B) and b) do as much deductible 457 plan as possible.