Awkward Wealth

[Spanky]

We mentioned a nearby brunch in an upscale area, and when they asked how much it was, I replied with $20 per person, but worth every single penny .. [/guote]

$20 is not that pricy at all for brunch.

 

[MichaelB]

I pick up on certain words or phrases that people use that, to me, flag them as a "snob".

Such as "Grey Poupon"?
Grey Poupon "The Lost Footage" - YouTube

 

[purplesky]

One thing I can say for sure is that many people on this board are not aware of how much envy and jealousy exists out there. Small town, big town, big city- envy is probably more frequent than not. Pols are not idiots, and they flog it all day long if it runs in their constituents.

Ha

It kind of seems like since 2008 America has become tired and complacent?

The whole "keeping up with the Jones" thing has kind of lost its luster?

I think the Millennial generation is starting to adapt to the new America of not buying a house and just living paycheck to paycheck from job to job.

 

[steelyman]

Such as "Grey Poupon"?

I can't quote this exactly, but a friend was a waiter in Cambridge, Mass, and some Midwest guy came in and ordered a burger. When asked, "would you like mustard?", he replied "yes! And don't bring me any of that Poo-Poo $hit! French's!"

 

[aja8888]

But fish eggs is fish eggs, and pregnant fish aren't too hard to find at spawning time.

Not all fish eggs are caviar....

Caviar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[longranger]

I rarely find discussions on this forum snobby or arrogant, however I can see pupleskys point. This forum attracts a lot of wealthy posters and thoughtful young LBYM dreamers that are likely to be able to ER in a decade or two. It only makes sense that many of the topics discussed are in fact issues of the wealthy. To the majority of our every day peers and family that are not FIRE oriented or ever will have the opportunity to FIRE short of winning a lottery our observations might sound like insensitive bragging.

That being said it is wonderful to have this forum as a resource to discuss issues like this thread does. Where else can you even begin to find a similar peer group to ask questions, express opinions and most importantly learn. Only been a member a few months and this is now by far the most helpful forum I have ever been a member of.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

All the time - not sure why. I remind myself often that we didn't steal it, we saved it by working for years and socking it away.

We had some friends over Friday night for dinner, and were discussing best places to eat breakfast out. We mentioned a nearby brunch in an upscale area, and when they asked how much it was, I replied with $20 per person, but worth every single penny. The look on their faces made me feel like a schmuck. I might as well have said $200 each. I then started backtracking by explaining that we only do it once a year or so, for very special occasions (not exactly true...). They are teachers with several kids, and are admittedly not great money managers. Why I feel bad for them is beyond me, but I do and really watch my words when discussing travels, home improvements, etc. One of my many foibles, I guess. I'm blessed, and feel for others not as lucky as we've been.

It is not a foible it is called having class.

I have known only a few people in my life that are truly blessed with the ability to enjoy being with people of any strata (political, economic, educational), and have those people equally enjoy being with them!

I have one good friend like this now. Much wealthier than me, he is at home and can have tactful discussions with both his right wing tea party friends as well as his left wing liberal friends, with silicon valley multimillionaires or out of work musicians, discussing quantum theory with physicists or bluegrass music at festivals.

Another one I knew was a physicist, world renown in his field, worked for him and had him over for dinner. Expected to chat about physics, instead he talked about romance novels with my wife!

It is never beneath you to be able to tailor your comments so they will make others comfortable, even when you think you are trying to "educate" them.

My father had this, I do not. But I am trying.

 

[eta2020]

One thing I can say for sure is that many people on this board are not aware of how much envy and jealousy exists out there. Small town, big town, big city- envy is probably more frequent than not. Pols are not idiots, and they flog it all day long if it runs in their constituents.

Ha

Very well said.

Don't create enemies where you don't have to. It is needless headache.....

 

[Lsbcal]

Envy? Is this conserved like energy?

I bet everyone here has been envious at one time or another.
I've felt a bit of this in the past and tried to get it going in others.
Am guilty but trying my best to be a good human nowadays.

 

[Sea Kayaker]

I am not lying in admitting I was envious for years peeking into the "Life after FIRE" section and seeing the happy, relaxed, and stress free folks in there. Seems weird that new "Young Dreamers" may be envious of me and my ER at 42.

Envy is ugly in many ways - but, darn it, did it ever help motivate me.

 

[Khan]

There was the time on facebook when I was going to say: "It's only $100".
Then I realized that might be a month's food budget.

 

[Meadbh]

If we never see what can be achieved, how will we become motivated to achieve it? A little envy can be a good thing, assuming it is channeled into positive action, rather than resentment.

 

[MooreBonds]

Is it really that expensive? I figured it might be $5-10 for a small tin or pouch (how is it even packaged?) at TJ's. Sure the good stuff that someone linked earlier is thousands. But fish eggs is fish eggs, and pregnant fish aren't too hard to find at spawning time.

I was at A's store and needed help, so asked her without really thinking about the implications (until the words rolled off my tongue).

Perception can be 9/10ths of someone's opinion.

Sadly, some people blow $10 or $20 without thought (even if they live paycheck to paycheck). However, they will still, in the same minute, very likely judge someone that they PERCEIVE to be high-falutin', even though that high-falutin' person is only spending $20 on 1/2 oz of caviar - which is more value than "A" spending $20 on lottery tickets or on 1 1/2 drinks at a bar (with tax and tip).

Also, two other interesting things:

1) You say

Crap, I can't find any caviar. I don't even know why it's on my grocery list other than DW put it there (it wasn't me!). After looking everywhere for the caviar, I finally decide to ask someone. The only person around was my acquaintance A. I tried to make it sound less expensive by asking "do you know where the fish eggs or caviar is located?".

If anything, that could possibly make it sound even more insulting, since I'm willing to bet that most people over the age of, say, 25 probably know what caviar is, including those working in a grocery store (whether they know where it is kept, may be another story). But you clearly were aware of the nature and possible interpretation of your question, and the potential perception it would have, such that you went out of your way to phrase the question in a certain way to appear to not be snobby (while possibly coming across as even more snobby, implying that someone might be so underclassed as to not even know what caviar even is - even if you didn't want to appear that way). So you clearly were fully aware of the possible perception of what you were asking.

2 ) You also mentioned that

Capers, marinated artichokes, wine, champagne, cheese - the regular things you get at TJ's that aren't cheaply found at Walmart or Aldi.

(You can find a variety of cheeses at both Walmart and Aldi's. I don't know what makes them so 'luxury', unless you pick up each wedge in someone's cart to see the $/lb for each....same for champagne: you can get it at Aldi or any store for $5-$10/bottle, or you can spend $100+/bottle. No one knows how much you spend unless it has the sticker on it)

I already had my cart full of all these clearly luxury goods by this point. "A" told me the caviar is in the cheese section, but it's seasonal. Check back around Thanksgiving.

It felt awkward. And I felt a little guilty. I know I shouldn't feel guilty though.

So you were already feeling "awkward". But why? Did you have to push the cart in front of you up to the store clerk, showing off all of your "clearly luxury goods" in front of you? Were you able to leave the cart at the front of the aisle and walk up to them without your cart, to save yourself some awkwardness so they didn't have to gaze into your cart and see tons of things that would show hints at your lifestyle?

 

[Lsbcal]

If we never see what can be achieved, how will we become motivated to achieve it? A little envy can be a good thing, assuming it is channeled into positive action, rather than resentment.

Good point! Now I'm envious of you. I should have said that.

 

[dallas27]

Envy is a foundation that ambition is often built upon. Its called envy when its bare and raw and not going anywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[brewer12345]

Is it really that expensive? I figured it might be $5-10 for a small tin or pouch (how is it even packaged?) at TJ's. Sure the good stuff that someone linked earlier is thousands. But fish eggs is fish eggs, and pregnant fish aren't too hard to find at spawning time.

I was at A's store and needed help, so asked her without really thinking about the implications (until the words rolled off my tongue).

I won't buy imported real caviar even if I wanted to splurge because the consumption of such is wiping out the sturgeon in their native rivers. I will not be party to that. Have not bothered trying the farmed domestic stuff, but might make the effort at some point.

 

[traineeinvestor]

It is not a foible it is called having class.

I have known only a few people in my life that are truly blessed with the ability to enjoy being with people of any strata (political, economic, educational), and have those people equally enjoy being with them!

I have one good friend like this now. Much wealthier than me, he is at home and can have tactful discussions with both his right wing tea party friends as well as his left wing liberal friends, with silicon valley multimillionaires or out of work musicians, discussing quantum theory with physicists or bluegrass music at festivals.

Another one I knew was a physicist, world renown in his field, worked for him and had him over for dinner. Expected to chat about physics, instead he talked about romance novels with my wife!

It is never beneath you to be able to tailor your comments so they will make others comfortable, even when you think you are trying to "educate" them.

My father had this, I do not. But I am trying.

I can really relate to this.

My mostly ex job had me interacting with some very wealthy people as well as very high income types on a regular basis and my MFA has introduced my to a a lot of other post-grad students who (AFAIAW) have much more modest incomes. We've always had a diverse network of social contacts but these days it really does span the full economic spectrum.

 

[jjquantz]

I can really relate to this.

My mostly ex job had me interacting with some very wealthy people as well as very high income types on a regular basis and my MFA has introduced my to a a lot of other post-grad students who (AFAIAW) have much more modest incomes. We've always had a diverse network of social contacts but these days it really does span the full economic spectrum.

This makes me think about the changes that have occurred since I moved from Iowa to the DC area. In Iowa, my regular golf group included: a couple of professors, a couple of high school teachers, a janitor, a CPA, a couple of contractors, a former principal, a plumber, and a couple of others that I can't remember their vocations. Now I play (irregularly) with lobbyists, congressional staffers, Government employees, former CIA staffers, campaign finance people, etc.

Very different groups of people, but I can converse with both. I really miss the old group, however. They were less uptight about the way they were viewed by others.

 

[ERD50]

If we never see what can be achieved, how will we become motivated to achieve it? A little envy can be a good thing, assuming it is channeled into positive action, rather than resentment.

Thanks for saying that. I'm astounded at how popular it seems these days to denigrate the wealthy. Doesn't almost everyone, at some point in their life, want to be rich and/or famous, and doesn't that often provide some motivation to learn the skills it takes to get there?

Along the way, maybe the pure $ figure is replaced by some other valuable goal (learning to help others in some way), but usually doing these things well have some financial rewards. But I do agree, a little envy can be used positively.

...
I have known only a few people in my life that are truly blessed with the ability to enjoy being with people of any strata (political, economic, educational), and have those people equally enjoy being with them!

I have one good friend like this now. Much wealthier than me, he is at home and can have tactful discussions with both his right wing tea party friends as well as his left wing liberal friends, with silicon valley multimillionaires or out of work musicians, discussing quantum theory with physicists or bluegrass music at festivals.

....

It is never beneath you to be able to tailor your comments so they will make others comfortable, even when you think you are trying to "educate" them.

My father had this, I do not. But I am trying.

I won't claim to be good at this, but I enjoy the challenge, and I do make an effort from time to time.

I've had some very good conversations and friendships with some people that are way outside my own social status or views or background. I enjoy different viewpoints and experiences. I think, as long as the person is 'genuine', I can mange to find something in common to talk about, or even compare differences (have to be careful here, to not offend). If they are 'phony' (regardless of social status), I will try to find better ways to spend my time.

I attended a wedding this w/e with DW and her extended family. Sat at the bar before the reception with some of the family that might have finished HS. They like to fish and hunt (not me), they are into sports (not me), they ordered lite beers and I got the craft beer. But we had plenty to talk about, shared some stories, had some laughs, and although our careers were very different, as they talked we could relate some common issues between all of them. They are good people, there's always something we can get together on.

Then another, very, very left-minded relative - but we have some over-lapping interests in music, so we focus on that, and family. Good times.

Dow 30 CEO, or a welder - I've managed to hold a conversation for an evening with both of them, and I think they both enjoyed it as much as I did (or one or the other was better at hiding their boredom?).

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Looking around, one can always find things or attributes of others to be envious of, and it is more than wealth. There are people better looking than we are, more physically fit, taller, healthier, stronger, smarter, etc...

At some point in my life, and it was in my late teens as I recall, I stopped being envious of others, and became comfortable in my own skin. How else can we live?

Not all fish eggs are caviar....

Caviar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the above link:

"Traditionally the term caviar refers only to roe from wild sturgeon in the Caspian and Black Sea (Beluga, Ossetra and Sevruga caviars)..."

Given that the world's annual production of caviar from farm raised sturgeon amounts to a few hundred tons a year, it is no surprise that sturgeon caviar goes for a few thousand dollars a pound. I have had caviar only once, and did not know of the quality or origin, but was certain that I did not like it, and have not tried again. I hasten to add that I like fish and even fish roe, but not caviar.

It is a good thing that I have a peasant's taste. Earlier today, I tried creton (a pork spread) for the first time, which I bought in a charcuterie in Montreal. Then, for dinner we just cooked and ate some Brome Lake duck breasts. I am going to pour myself a shot of Martell to top it off.

Life can be good even if you do not care for caviar.

 

[aim-high]

It is not a foible it is called having class.

I have known only a few people in my life that are truly blessed with the ability to enjoy being with people of any strata (political, economic, educational), and have those people equally enjoy being with them!

I have one good friend like this now. Much wealthier than me, he is at home and can have tactful discussions with both his right wing tea party friends as well as his left wing liberal friends, with silicon valley multimillionaires or out of work musicians, discussing quantum theory with physicists or bluegrass music at festivals.

Another one I knew was a physicist, world renown in his field, worked for him and had him over for dinner. Expected to chat about physics, instead he talked about romance novels with my wife!

It is never beneath you to be able to tailor your comments so they will make others comfortable, even when you think you are trying to "educate" them.

My father had this, I do not. But I am trying.

Being well read, having the ability to converse and listen, and truly believing in the dignity of every human being helps. All of those are uncommon attributes.

 

[brewer12345]

Given that the world's annual production of caviar from farm raised sturgeon amounts to a few hundred tons a year, it is no surprise that sturgeon caviar goes for a few thousand dollars a pound. I have had caviar only once, and did not know of the quality or origin, but was certain that I did not like it, and have not tried again. I hasten to add that I like fish and even fish roe, but not caviar.

It is a good thing that I have a peasant's taste. Earlier today, I tried creton (a pork spread) for the first time, which I bought in a charcuterie in Montreal. Then, for dinner we just cooked and ate some Brome Lake duck breasts. I am going to pour myself a shot of Martell to top it off.

Life can be good even if you do not care for caviar.

Good caviar is excellent. Doesn't make it ethical to eat it, though.

As for plebian tastes, I spent the day in a cornfield chasing doves with a friend and his son. Dinner was simple and accompanied by homebrew. Now enjoying some Bourbon.

 

[athena53]

Envy is a foundation that ambition is often built upon. Its called envy when its bare and raw and not going anywhere.

I agree. I had a thorough grounding in morals by nuns when I was growing up and they said that envy was a sin if you wanted what someone else had so badly that you'd be willing to steal it, or if it made you resent them because they had what you wanted. I saw that form of envy in my Ex- his sister had founded a hugely successful business with her husband and after they got through the lean years they ended up with a net worth in 8 figures (last I heard), a floor-through in the same Manhattan prewar building where Mike Wallace used to live, and a home on the NJ shore in a town with private beaches. It just made him seethe. Why didn't HE have that? SIL and BIL (I still think of them as family) are the nicest, most down-to-earth people you'd ever meet. They came to DS' wedding in Des Moines in a church made from a converted basketball gym and I was so glad they were there. They circulated and met most of the bride's family, too.

I grew up with aspirations. I saw some things/experiences other people had and I wanted those things/experiences in my life, too. I made sure that I got the education and the career that allowed them, and spent less on other things (cars, furniture) than other people who made the same $$. Totally different attitude.

 

[Live And Learn]

We mentioned a nearby brunch in an upscale area, and when they asked how much it was, I replied with $20 per person, but worth every single penny. The look on their faces made me feel like a schmuck. I might as well have said $200 each. .

I don't know your networth vs mine, but you would have gotten the same look from me, so don't feel too bad (I guess).

 

[jcretire77]

I am hoping to ER, but still working away. I have a good friend at work who has done very well and he apparently forgets that most of us make much less and do not receive any stock and he complains about the hold out period. I laugh (inside) as I will retire before he does. Bright, but clueless.

On the other side of the spectrum I have a friend outside of work who has struggled for the past few years and I always drive an older car to lunch instead of the newer one so that there is no chance that he would feel bad. I doubt that he would, but just in case.

I know that I think and talk about ER too much at work. I need to keep that to myself or maybe share/vent here to my anonymous friends.

One last share, apparently my DW wants to work two more years to see her DD thru law school. I was ready to call it good next spring, but may end up joining the OMY crowd or be a kept man.