Bogle's 10-Year Forecast

not according to michael ,kitces work it doesn't. it takes a 2% real return average over the first 15 years of a 30 year time frame to support a 4% withdrawal rate inflation adjusted .

https://www.kitces.com/blog/What-Returns-Are-Safe-Withdrawal-Rates-REALLY-Based-Upon/

Math gets it to 28 years inflation adjusted with 4% SWR and a 1% real return.

A 1.25% real return gets you a 30 year retirement.

What kind of funky math is he using that requires a 2% real return?

edit: I assumed a 2% inflation rate, which is about where we are today, even facing possible deflation.
 
It is called sequence risk .

edit: Tried to post an example, but sequence risk has nothing to do with the fact that you do not need a 2% average real return for the first 15 years.
 
your example would only be true if you got a constant interest rate for 30 years with never a negative year . spending down in down years totally alters the equation . the exact same average return can end up having a difference as much as 15 years as to how long it will last depending on the order of those gain and losses .

which is why safe withdrawal rates are based on worst case scenario's
 
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Its all about growth. Without wage growth and a strong middle-class you can only financial engineer the markets so much.
People get mad and defensive when they hear the American Dream is dead.
Bogle knows it is. So do Buffet and Yellen.

If you look at the Japanese market, you can get a prediction of what could, or is, happening here. We have rampant global deflation. There is a global surplus of workers, and workers are a major commodity that factor into prices. That worker surplus is growing, not slowing.

When you look at upcoming demographic changes, the world is producing lower wage earners, and not higher wage earners. Changing what you pay a worker beyond what they can produce, does not mean you get a bunch of higher wage workers.

In the USA, there are less high-skill workers as work gets outsourced and workers gain productivity with new software and better hardware. The few (as a percentage) high wage earners left, will be required to pay additional taxes to support the rest of the lower paid workers. It becomes a death spiral as the incentive to not work replaces the incentive to work.

The USA is getting ready to retire the greatest generation that it has ever produced, the baby boomers. These people are the highest wage earners that the US, and possibly the world, has ever seen. The next generation will not have the same wages, and 3 people making $33K a year pay a lot less taxes than one person making $100K a year. That downward wage curve is going to start to go down exponentially after that generation retires.

As you look to company earnings reports, many companies are reporting stagnant top line revenue growth. Companies like Starbucks may beat revenue forecasts, but how does that help wages and job growth on a macro level? We get a bunch of people making $14 an hour, not $50+ an hour like the former union workers would be making.

Many of the lower skill workers will be replaced with robots, and other technologies. Even the person at the drive up window taking your order can be sourced in a different country, or by a self-service kiosk that you pay at. Taco Bell has been experimenting with robots to make their food. Bus and truck drivers (and trains?) are soon to become obsolete with driver-less vehicles. Even restaurant servers will have to forgo their $20+ an hour cash tips so that the cooks can make $2 an hour more. As a trade-off, the servers will get an additional $3 in taxable wages per hour. Overall, wages are headed down, not up.

To get any sort of price flexibility, companies can reduce the amount of proprietary widgets they make, and increase prices. That is not really natural inflation, it is an induced supply shortage. Only one company makes an I-phone, and the hurdle for getting into any business is getting steeper. Most other products are commodities, and can be produced by any company, anywhere. The lowest bidder will sell the most, other companies will lower their prices to compete.

Some self-motivated individuals may start smaller companies to survive. Many of these one-person companies will be a cash only business, with no taxes being paid or income being reported. They will be low revenue companies, but will produce enough revenue to support the families working in them. It will not increase wages to the mass public nor increase the tax base.

There will always be ways to grow the stock market. Stock buy-backs help demand for the company stock, and also increase earnings per share. That helps executives and stock holders, but does not increase demand for goods and services nor actual nominal profits. 50-year mortgages, or leases, will help housing ownership similar to the way 7-year car loans and leasing has helped the automotive industry.

If your early retirement plan is based on 9% average market yields, you better have a backup plan.
 
A couple thoughts.

First Bogle is exactly saying he CAN'T predict the future which is why he thinks individual stock buying is dangerous. It's double dangerous because it also risks behavioral mistakes that you think you won't make, but statistically you will (caveat: I own individual stocks and also have made behavioral errors :) ).

The other thing he says many times is that he might be wrong and if you disagree you can easily change assumptions.

So... I think his MODEL is pretty good. If the 10 yr bonds yield 2% you can expect about 2% annual yield from government bond funds over the next 10 years. Might swing up and down a bunch... But that's a good expectation. If you add corporate bonds maybe you get to 3-5 without huge risk. But if you think Corp/gov't bonds will return 7-10%... Well... It's hard to understand how that would happen.

For stocks he breaks it into speculative and non-speculative. Dividend rates and reinvestment rates are "non-specuaktive" because over time the reflect the underlying growth of businesses. That makes sense. So... If you think underlying business will grow 7%/yr over next 10 years that's what you can expect. He expects it closer to 2-3%.

Then you have speculative return. He seems to think it'll contract from an elevated PE of 20 to a more "*historical normal" rate of 15." If you think it goes to 10... Then that will be negative. If you think it goes to 30... Party on.

What I like is that he also says... Not much you can do. Cash will get eaten by inflation.commodities are pure speculation. Individual stocks are risky.

So the message I get is... The market doesn't care how much you need. And he's guessing what he thinks it might return so investors can adjust expectations and avoid stupid mistakes trying to make the market give what they need :).

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Everyone keeps mentioning cash will get eaten by inflation while they say wages are going to drop. Exactly how much inflation is going to happen if wages drop and everything becomes automated and produced cheaply? Maybe we are in for stocks only returning 3 or 4% and bonds 2%...but maybe inflation over the next ten years is only 1% per year.
 
The real median wage is not declining, it is flat. The median nominal wage is growing with inflation. The labor force has suffered a large decline in the employment population ratio, and also age demographics, as boomers retire. Combined, they lead to declines in household income even while wages rise. This is our recent past.

Most of the employment population ratio decline is behind us, and it appears the boomer demographic impact is also tapering off. Going forward, the US labor force will once again begin to increase, albeit at a low rate. Still, this points to a period of renewed growth in internal aggregate demand and a positive outlook for the US economy. It should probably also lead to real increases in the median wage.
 
Everyone keeps mentioning cash will get eaten by inflation while they say wages are going to drop. Exactly how much inflation is going to happen if wages drop and everything becomes automated and produced cheaply? Maybe we are in for stocks only returning 3 or 4% and bonds 2%...but maybe inflation over the next ten years is only 1% per year.
That's a good point. The inflation rate in Japan over the last 20 years has been very low with only one year at over 2% and 11/20 being negative Historic inflation Japan – historic CPI inflation Japan
 
We just plan for 0% real and anything over that is party time. Our strategy for improving finances in retirement is to continually optimize expenses and increase hobby income, as we can control those. We can't control interest rates or the stock market, and there is no point in worrying over events we can't control.
 
This economy is changing fast. We now have a generation who are delaying marriage,delaying having kids, and they are not able to buy a home.
Not to mention the 7 year car loans.
Think about how this broke generation has and will change the Xmas shopping season for retailers.

The stock market really is like a casino. Its almost comical.

Sounds a lot like 1985 (or 1972), or....
 
If you look at the Japanese market, you can get a prediction of what could, or is, happening here. We have rampant global deflation. There is a global surplus of workers, and workers are a major commodity that factor into prices. That worker surplus is growing, not slowing.

When you look at upcoming demographic changes, the world is producing lower wage earners, and not higher wage earners. Changing what you pay a worker beyond what they can produce, does not mean you get a bunch of higher wage workers.

In the USA, there are less high-skill workers as work gets outsourced and workers gain productivity with new software and better hardware. The few (as a percentage) high wage earners left, will be required to pay additional taxes to support the rest of the lower paid workers. It becomes a death spiral as the incentive to not work replaces the incentive to work.

The USA is getting ready to retire the greatest generation that it has ever produced, the baby boomers. These people are the highest wage earners that the US, and possibly the world, has ever seen. The next generation will not have the same wages, and 3 people making $33K a year pay a lot less taxes than one person making $100K a year. That downward wage curve is going to start to go down exponentially after that generation retires.

As you look to company earnings reports, many companies are reporting stagnant top line revenue growth. Companies like Starbucks may beat revenue forecasts, but how does that help wages and job growth on a macro level? We get a bunch of people making $14 an hour, not $50+ an hour like the former union workers would be making.

Many of the lower skill workers will be replaced with robots, and other technologies. Even the person at the drive up window taking your order can be sourced in a different country, or by a self-service kiosk that you pay at. Taco Bell has been experimenting with robots to make their food. Bus and truck drivers (and trains?) are soon to become obsolete with driver-less vehicles. Even restaurant servers will have to forgo their $20+ an hour cash tips so that the cooks can make $2 an hour more. As a trade-off, the servers will get an additional $3 in taxable wages per hour. Overall, wages are headed down, not up.

To get any sort of price flexibility, companies can reduce the amount of proprietary widgets they make, and increase prices. That is not really natural inflation, it is an induced supply shortage. Only one company makes an I-phone, and the hurdle for getting into any business is getting steeper. Most other products are commodities, and can be produced by any company, anywhere. The lowest bidder will sell the most, other companies will lower their prices to compete.

Some self-motivated individuals may start smaller companies to survive. Many of these one-person companies will be a cash only business, with no taxes being paid or income being reported. They will be low revenue companies, but will produce enough revenue to support the families working in them. It will not increase wages to the mass public nor increase the tax base.

There will always be ways to grow the stock market. Stock buy-backs help demand for the company stock, and also increase earnings per share. That helps executives and stock holders, but does not increase demand for goods and services nor actual nominal profits. 50-year mortgages, or leases, will help housing ownership similar to the way 7-year car loans and leasing has helped the automotive industry.

If your early retirement plan is based on 9% average market yields, you better have a backup plan.
In other words everything is going to hell in a handbag except the stock market.....OK
 
I think Bogle and Buffet and Yellen are all seeing the same picture. Expect the worst and hope for the best.

After reading this depressing thread, I think I'm going to make some margaritas and just chill.
 
...Going forward, the US labor force will once again begin to increase, albeit at a low rate. Still, this points to a period of renewed growth in internal aggregate demand and a positive outlook for the US economy...
This is not contrary to what most economists including Bogle predict. In the talk in 2006 that pb4ski referenced, Bogle said that we should not expect the return of 1980-2000. Is he wrong? I have not seen any poster here in this forum disagree with the above, but if you do, please raise your hand.

We just plan for 0% real and anything over that is party time...
At 3.3% WR, if one can just keep up with inflation, that's good for 30 years. I do not think I will live that long, and then there's SS too.

But same as Bogle, I do not think the stock return will be 0 after inflation. It will be positive. It's just not going to be gangbuster. Do people really read what he said?

People keep saying one cannot predict the future. True. But if someone says we are all going to live to 100 and travel the world at that age, I will say he is really dreaming, the same way if you expect wonderful stock returns as in 1980-2000. Agree? There's optimism, and then there's delusion.
 
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That's a good point. The inflation rate in Japan over the last 20 years has been very low with only one year at over 2% and 11/20 being negative Historic inflation Japan – historic CPI inflation Japan

That was also what I was thinking, so if inflation is low, which I know I heard the fed expects, then returns in the market can also be lower without any net impact... I'm only 43, so planning for 2.5-3% inflation over my lifetime (assuming a long life) is rather daunting but if inflation stays in check for the next 10 years, that will be a windfall for me.
 
At 3.3% WR, if one can just keep up with inflation, that's good for 30 years. I do not think I will live that long, and then there's SS too.

I hope you are wrong about you not living that long but you are right about the 3.3% safe withdrawal rate at a zero real return for 30 years. Plus with a TIPS ladder even at current yields, the 10 years are at around .6% + CPI inflation the last time I checked. So there is an almost a worry free ~4% SWR over 30 years just like one of the Zvi Bodie books was called (Worry Free Investing).

But our main strategy for ER remains to keep the same life or better than when we were working full time but much lower expenses and of course, more free time. We like bargain hunting and sustainable living ideas so finding ways of lowering our annual run rate but not our lifestyle has turned into an ER hobby for us.
 
What will it take for PE ratios to normalize in the next ten years as he predicts. Rising interest rates, higher taxes, stunted growth, a bubble, a combination? It's a mystery to me.
 
Who knows. He's making an assumption that it "regressed to the mean." And then basically says... Maybe it will maybe it won't. No one knows. If you think it's wrong... Plug in a different number :). Maybe it goes to 40 or 60.

Same with inflation. Maybe it goes up... Maybe down. But the system is designed to reduce the real spending power over time.

Japan really was no different. If you look at expected returns as Japan went nuts... What you saw in the next 10-15 years made sense from a long term perspective.

I think the key is that there's not much you can do to either (a) predict macro economic strands or (b) change them.

So that leaves 2 options:
1) the buffet approach: ignore the macro and identify/buy great businesses when they are cheap
2) the bogle approach: ignore the macro and buy the entire economy as cheaply as you can diversified by your tolerance for risk.

Conducting transactions and making predictions is the path to suboptimal returns.

I wish I was Buffett... But I'm not so... I guess I'll have to be Bogle :).

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I hope you are wrong about you not living that long but you are right about the 3.3% safe withdrawal rate at a zero real return for 30 years. Plus with a TIPS ladder even at current yields, the 10 years are at around .6% + CPI inflation the last time I checked. So there is an almost a worry free ~4% SWR over 30 years just like one of the Zvi Bodie books was called (Worry Free Investing)...
True. And I am strongly optimistic that the market will beat that modest TIPS return, maybe not by much but every little bit helps. And when I add in SS, I will be all right. And then, there's that reduced spending that Bernicke has observed with geezers.

Then, again, I will surprise myself if I can still make posts here 30 years from now. :)

I think younger ER's should be more concerned with a reduced market return than geezers like myself.

What will it take for PE ratios to normalize in the next ten years as he predicts. Rising interest rates, higher taxes, stunted growth, a bubble, a combination? It's a mystery to me.

As I know, neither Bogle nor Shiller have described the factors that may cause P/E reversion to the mean. So, they just say to be prepared and not act surprised if it happens. I guess people are still scratching their head on the P/E expansion in the period of 1980 to now. They have to explain that first. :D
 
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True. And I am strongly optimistic that the market will beat that modest TIPS return, maybe not by much but every little bit helps. And when I add in SS, I will be all right. And then, there's that reduced spending that Bernicke has observed with geezers.

Then, again, I will surprise myself if I can still make posts here 30 years from now. :)

I think younger ER's should be more concerned with a reduced market return than geezers like myself.



As I know, neither Bogle nor Shiller have described the factors that may cause P/E reversion to the mean. So, they just say to be prepared and not act surprised if it happens. I guess people are still scratching their head on the P/E expansion in the period of 1980 to now. They have to explain that first. :D


Quite frankly I think what they're all suggesting, just like Grantham, Hussman etc., is that the SP500 should trade around 1400 or thereabouts. They expect reversion to come about by way of a major correction. The only other way for the market to stay steadyish and earnings to grow. I'm a year or two from full retirement but I sure don't want to retire before that correction happens, if it does. Rightly or wrongly I'm keeping my stock allocation quite low until something happens.


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If you look at the Japanese market, you can get a prediction of what could, or is, happening here. We have rampant global deflation. There is a global surplus of workers, and workers are a major commodity that factor into prices. That worker surplus is growing, not slowing.

When you look at upcoming demographic changes, the world is producing lower wage earners, and not higher wage earners. Changing what you pay a worker beyond what they can produce, does not mean you get a bunch of higher wage workers.

In the USA, there are less high-skill workers as work gets outsourced and workers gain productivity with new software and better hardware. The few (as a percentage) high wage earners left, will be required to pay additional taxes to support the rest of the lower paid workers. It becomes a death spiral as the incentive to not work replaces the incentive to work.

The USA is getting ready to retire the greatest generation that it has ever produced, the baby boomers. These people are the highest wage earners that the US, and possibly the world, has ever seen. The next generation will not have the same wages, and 3 people making $33K a year pay a lot less taxes than one person making $100K a year. That downward wage curve is going to start to go down exponentially after that generation retires.

Harry Dent has been making the "demographic cliff" argument for years.

He is actually quite convincing... much of what he describes makes a lot of sense. But from my experience... you can't expect or predict market reactions to make sense.

If you want to really depress yourself read his predictions. He is calling for the DOW to hit 6000 in the next 20 months.
 
Harry Dent has been making the "demographic cliff" argument for years.

He is actually quite convincing... much of what he describes makes a lot of sense. But from my experience... you can't expect or predict market reactions to make sense.

If you want to really depress yourself read his predictions. He is calling for the DOW to hit 6000 in the next 20 months.
As I recall the DOW was at the 6000-7000 level back in early 2009. Certainly not a pleasant time but as it turned out, full of opportunity for those that didn't panic. I had already been ER'd 6+ years by then and fortunately I had experienced and survived the crashes of 1987, 1990, and 2000-2002. None of them pleasant - all of them very educational in that they made me a believer of the long term philosophy behind Mr. Bogle's approach. Mr. Dent - not so much.
 
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