Die With Zero - Book

[Luvtoride]

I completely get your point. My point would be to not waste your 50's, pinching and scrapping, just to hope to do the things you want to do in your 60's and 70's. It's a fact our bodies begin to "break down" into our 60's.

For those who have NOT read the book, this is exactly the point that he makes.

Its like a three legged stool. In order to have experiences that will create lifetime memories and do things you WANT to do, you need TIME, MONEY and HEALTH. When we're young, we don't have the TIME or MONEY to have the experiences that create those memories. As we get older (and FIRE) we have the TIME and MONEY, but may not have the HEALTH if we wait too long.

That's what the book is about!

 

[MRG]

For those who have NOT read the book, this is exactly the point that he makes.



Its like a three legged stool. In order to have experiences that will create lifetime memories and do things you WANT to do, you need TIME, MONEY and HEALTH. When we're young, we don't have the TIME or MONEY to have the experiences that create those memories. As we get older (and FIRE) we have the TIME and MONEY, but may not have the HEALTH if we wait too long.



That's what the book is about!

I'm only a couple chapters in and I keep waiting for the book to tell me anything past why I need to read it. I'll push ahead.

 

[sengsational]

^ It gets there eventually. The book was nothing new, conceptually, but it serves as motivation to get going on things I knew I would be glad I'd done.

 

[Koolau]

Bolded by me. I don't know if $ makes it more bearable. My DS passed on Monday. She went into the hospital around 10-15 July. From then until now she has been in the hospital, nursing home and finally a hospice center. All were nice. The nursing home was average. Hospital and hospice very nice. She didn't pay a dime because she litterally didn't have one. Her estate consists of a falling down house and a 9 yr old car. Total estate maybe 40k. She owes 80k in student loans. Now forgiven. My point? Having a few extra k's while living your last days/weeks/months most likely won't matter.

I am sorry for your loss. I lost my sister when she was 40. It's good to live in a country where care IS available to all - not just the wealthy.

No amount of money guarantees a pleasant (or even a more pleasant) end-of-life scenario. However, having 24 hour in-home care sounds MUCH better to me than slipping away in even a decent hospital. I'm not saying that's my plan, but it gives at least a modicum of comfort to know it might be possible. Just one of my back-burner black-swan musings. YMMV

God bless you during your time of grief.

 

[TheWizard]

At least a few replies in this long thread mention buying annuities as one sure method of dying broke.
I suppose that's possible if:
a) you use essentially ALL of your money at the starting point to buy lifetime annuities.
b) you spend ALL of your annuity income each month.

In practice, that's not how it always works.

I have lifetime (10 year guaranteed) immediate annuties with TIAA, mostly based on commercial real estate and the broad stock market. So my monthly annuity income increases most months.

Especially after starting age 70 SS last year, I now have excess retirement income from SS + annuities most months.
So not only do I have a zero withdrawal rate from my portfolio, but I've been investing a few thousand $$ of this excess income into stock funds each month.

YMMV, of course...

 

[Music Lover]

At least a few replies in this long thread mention buying annuities as one sure method of dying broke.
I suppose that's possible if:
a) you use essentially ALL of your money at the starting point to buy lifetime annuities.
b) you spend ALL of your annuity income each month.

Renting with no savings and collecting CPP or SS along with a pension basically ensures you end with next to nothing other than possessions (if you spend it all every month).

 

[Helios]

Ugh!!
I finished reading the die with zero book. This forum's discussion about the book was better than THE BOOK.
You sucessfully lured me into going to the library and checking out this book.


The man who doesnt read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.

 

[PatrickA5]

Ugh!!
I finished reading the die with zero book. This forum's discussion about the book was better than THE BOOK.
You sucessfully lured me into going to the library and checking out this book.


The man who doesnt read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.

I read the book. Wasn't impressed. Basically, an extremely wealthy man who likes to do exotic adventures telling us to do the same while we're healthy. Good advice, I guess. He doesn't really say to try and Die with Zero - but to spend the money on experiences or give it away while alive.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I read the book. Wasn't impressed. Basically, an extremely wealthy man who likes to do exotic adventures telling us to do the same while we're healthy. Good advice, I guess. He doesn't really say to try and Die with Zero - but to spend the money on experiences or give it away while alive.

It seems like the basic assumption is that to have fun you have to spend a lot of money, an idea promoted by advertisers but not really supported by actual research, either happiness studies or The Millionaire Next Door research into how most millionaires spend their money. The happiest person found so far based on brain wave studies is actually a Buddhist monk - The World’s Happiest Man Is a Tibetan Monk | Smart News | Smithsonian Magazine

 

[Koolau]

It seems like the basic assumption is that to have fun you have to spend a lot of money, an idea promoted by advertisers but not really supported by actual research, either happiness studies or The Millionaire Next Door research into how most millionaires spend their money. The happiest person found so far based on brain wave studies is actually a Buddhist monk - The World’s Happiest Man Is a Tibetan Monk | Smart News | Smithsonian Magazine

In general - and I would think a Buddhist Monk might fit this category - folks who are satisfied with what they have are happiest IMHO. I'm not quite there, but no longer "lust" for most things. Full disclosure, I'd love to have (well, probably just drive) a C8 Corvette - maybe just once (who knows)?. But since that is not going to happen, I only think about it on occasion and then let it go. YMMV

 

[sengsational]

At least a few replies in this long thread mention buying annuities as one sure method of dying broke.
I suppose that's possible if:
a) you use essentially ALL of your money at the starting point to buy lifetime annuities.
b) you spend ALL of your annuity income each month.
.....

That's the one thing I couldn't get past in the book, or any book, that makes any kind of suggestion that annuities would be an appropriate "play". I don't call it an "investment", because annuities are not an investment according to this fee-only financial planner I've been following for decades. Here's an article he wrote on 11/29/2021 where he analyzes an advertisement for an annuity. It's pretty enlightening how the annuity company puts thoughts in your head without getting themselves into hot water for lying. https://www.marottaonmoney.com/annuities-just-say-no/
And this oldie (2015) but goodie: What Is The Alternative To An Annuity? – Marotta On Money that spells out in a quick read that in the typical scenario, you have to live a long time just to get your money back, and even if you live an extraordinarily long time, you still don't fare very well. The punch line, which you might guess, is if you have a diversified portfolio and take a SWR, you will have a lot more money to spend, and chances are good (nothing is guaranteed), but chances are good that you won't outlive your money. BTW, I don't do business with this Marotta guy, nor have any interest in his business, but I've been reading his page for a very long time, and often find his stuff pretty easy to understand.

 

[NW-Bound]

In general - and I would think a Buddhist Monk might fit this category - folks who are satisfied with what they have are happiest IMHO. I'm not quite there, but no longer "lust" for most things. Full disclosure, I'd love to have (well, probably just drive) a C8 Corvette - maybe just once (who knows)?. But since that is not going to happen, I only think about it on occasion and then let it go. YMMV

Not knowing much about cars, I had to look it up.

The Chevrolet Corvette (C8) is the eighth generation of the Corvette... it is the first mid-engine Corvette since the model's introduction in 1953... The C8 was announced in April 2019... Production officially began on February 3, 2020...

A new C8 is around $100K and does not look like you want it for a daily driver. Perhaps you can rent one for a day to have a taste?

By the way, speaking of Buddist monks, I think I am among the "monkiest" poster here, because I do not desire much. I cannot be an actual monk though. They are not allowed to eat meat or drink alcohol, and a few more things.

PS. I have too many material things compared to an average Buddhist monk also. I do not desire more, but do not want to lose what I have right now.

PPS. Well, I still like to see my portfolio grow, and still work on it. This is more a challenge to see if I could decipher the market action, and not to get more money to spend. This is my story, and I am sticking to it.

 

[Music Lover]

One couple I know have begun to spend down their money. He has a govt DB pension and she has a good private pension that easily covers their monthly expenses. They have no kids to leave an inheritance to so they are selling their paid off house (approx $400k) and moving to an apartment. They plan to use some of the proceeds of the house sale to fund decent winter getaway trips for the next 10 - 15 years, fairly nice places that rent for $5000+ a month or so rather than a more modest $2500 - $3000 rentals.

They may not die with zero but they plan on getting close.

 

[FANOFJESUS]

One couple I know have begun to spend down their money. He has a govt DB pension and she has a good private pension that easily covers their monthly expenses. They have no kids to leave an inheritance to so they are selling their paid off house (approx $400k) and moving to an apartment. They plan to use some of the proceeds of the house sale to fund decent winter getaway trips for the next 10 - 15 years, fairly nice places that rent for $5000+ a month or so rather than a more modest $2500 - $3000 rentals.

They may not die with zero but they plan on getting close.

Much easier with a good pension. It takes more work without one.

 

[FIRE-Traveler]

Just discovered this book a few months ago. I've been listening to a ton of interviews with the author (Bill), and then bought the book a week ago.

I also signed up for the emails with the various worksheets, etc.

I still need to dive into it all, and not sure the order of events (so, anybody that's done the sheets and read the book, I'd love suggestions on this).

One thing that's already hit me really hard after listening to the interviews was when I had the most profound realization the other day (profound for me, probably simple for most other people): I've been focused my whole-life on making my "net worth" number get higher and higher and higher. It’s been like a game to see how big I can get it. I heard someone refer to the process of “space invader numbers”… like playing a game just to get the highest score.

… but in a quick moment the other day, I realized that I’m not 20 or 30 anymore. Why am I still trying to get the “high score”?!?!? I'm at the point in my life where I should shift my focus from making my net-worth getting bigger, to having more life-experiences and making that number get SMALLER!

That, for me, is a HUGE adjustment in the way I think and move forward with my finances!!!

What about you guys?

Did you ever shift from "How big can I make my net worth?" to "How can I spend & gift my money so I maximize experiences and 'Die with zero'?"

 

[MarieIG]

Just discovered this book a few months ago. I've been listening to a ton of interviews with the author (Bill), and then bought the book a week ago.

I also signed up for the emails with the various worksheets, etc.

I still need to dive into it all, and not sure the order of events (so, anybody that's done the sheets and read the book, I'd love suggestions on this).

One thing that's already hit me really hard after listening to the interviews was when I had the most profound realization the other day (profound for me, probably simple for most other people): I've been focused my whole-life on making my "net worth" number get higher and higher and higher. It’s been like a game to see how big I can get it. I heard someone refer to the process of “space invader numbers”… like playing a game just to get the highest score.

… but in a quick moment the other day, I realized that I’m not 20 or 30 anymore. Why am I still trying to get the “high score”?!?!? I'm at the point in my life where I should shift my focus from making my net-worth getting bigger, to having more life-experiences and making that number get SMALLER!

That, for me, is a HUGE adjustment in the way I think and move forward with my finances!!!

What about you guys?

Did you ever shift from "How big can I make my net worth?" to "How can I spend & gift my money so I maximize experiences and 'Die with zero'?"

No. The premise was inapplicable; and the goal, as phrased, unappealing to me.

 

[RobbieB]

Yeah, I'm on the path. Compared to what I lost in the market last month, the boat was chump change.

 

[Jerry1]

I get the concept of shifting from accumulating to spending, but I have DW to think about. My wife’s family has a strong sting of dementia. I have to plan to have as much as possible for her to be taken care of. Then if any is left, I’d be very happy for my DD’s to end up with a nice inheritance. So dying with anything close to zero is not my plan.

Balance is key. I will be happy to spend on some life experiences along the way, just not so much as to spend it all - or even close to all.

 

[retire202052]

If inflation keeps up.....I'll certainly do this.

 

[friar1610]

I get the concept of shifting from accumulating to spending, but I have DW to think about. My wife’s family has a strong sting of dementia. I have to plan to have as much as possible for her to be taken care of. Then if any is left, I’d be very happy for my DD’s to end up with a nice inheritance. So dying with anything close to zero is not my plan.

Balance is key. I will be happy to spend on some life experiences along the way, just not so much as to spend it all - or even close to all .

^^^^ This.

 

[foxfirev5]

Yeah, I'm on the path. Compared to what I lost in the market last month, the boat was chump change.

However, I'm willing to bet that over time the boat will catch up.

 

[jldavid47]

However, I'm willing to bet that over time the boat will catch up.

Yeah, you know what BOAT stands for, right?


Bust
Out
Another
Thousand

 

[ER Eddie]

The book initially attracted me, and I was captivated by its central premise. I bought it and read it. After trying to live with it for a while, though, I realized that I am not the intended audience. I think one reason may have to do with introversion vs. extroversion. I am a big introvert, and this approach to life satisfaction -- framing it in terms of buying experiences -- just doesn't resonate for me.

I was reading The Introvert Advantage a few days ago, and the author described extroverts as "collectors of experiences." In a nutshell, introverts don't need a lot of stimulation from the external world, are more oriented to the internal, and tend to reflect more on their experience. Extroverts, otoh, like a large variety of external world experiences; they don't reflect much on their experience -- it's on to the next experience. She referred to extroverts as "collectors of experiences."

I think that's part of why the book didn't quite land for me. I felt like the author was speaking to the type of person who is interested in a large variety of external world experiences. That's just not that big a motivator for me.

 

[levindb]

I calculate how much we can spend each year in order to Die With Zero...just an average per year...up to age 105.

That is our theoretical maximum budget. We may not make it to age 105, and we understand that, but this does encourage us to spend more than our frugal tendencies. We only NEED about 70% of this number each year, and the rest would be BTD items or experiences. These experiences can be physical things (kayaking, biking, pub crawls) or things we observe/live (world cruise, RV in Alaska, 6 week African safari, and those pub crawls.)

The idea for us that this book brought out was to let go of the purse strings a bit so that you are not hoarding $$ just for the next generation...but instead, use those funds for some of your own enjoyment. You are worth it. You earned it. If you want to share it with your heirs, give it to them while you are alive, rather than after you pass.

Personally, we would not do most of the activities that the author did...but the concept of DOING THINGS did hit home with us...and we were already doing a lot of that. Told the children not to expect an inheritance from us. At our age 105, they will be 75-85 and will have been retired for many years already. The kids, and their kids, need to be self-sufficient. We want enough $$ late in life to get fresh diapers each and every day.

 

[Ready-4-ER-at-14]

RMD does a lot of the spend down for most people. Been converting to roth and intend to spend more every year and have the earnings increase every year. Doing the good grandparent things but just spot assisting rather than overwhelming offspring that way they feel accomplishment as well.

Inflation is and has been an ugly presence when it comes to expenses but it is all relative as assets tend to appreciate as well.

We have done some of the die with nothing ideas such as annuities and bond ladders that pay off to provide living expenses due high probability of being alive years.

Live like you will die tomorrow, and invest some like you will live forever.. Part wrong means part right! : )