Die With Zero - Book

[tryan]

Little bit funny ... was golfing with an older gentlemen who told me about his buddy in FL. His "goal" was to die broke. Now he IS broke ... but didn't die.

So he dates the rich widows in the retirement community .... leaching off of them until they get tired of his game. Then on to the next.

 

[CRLLS]

Little bit funny ... was golfing with an older gentlemen who told me about his buddy in FL. His "goal" was to die broke. Now he IS broke ... but didn't die.

So he dates the rich widows in the retirement community .... leaching off of them until they get tired of his game. Then on to the next.

And therein lies the catch, for this method and others like it. Nobody knows when they will die. I would much rather die with money left on the table than to live without it. My retirement plan is modeled as such and is reviewed and adjusted as necessary. I still have 30 years to go per my plan.

 

[braumeister]

Little bit funny ... was golfing with an older gentlemen who told me about his buddy in FL. His "goal" was to die broke. Now he IS broke ... but didn't die.

So he dates the rich widows in the retirement community .... leaching off of them until they get tired of his game. Then on to the next.

I think there are also a lot of elderly gentlemen who work on cruise ships as paid dance partners for the widows who are regular passengers.

 

[FindingForward]

The book initially attracted me, and I was captivated by its central premise. I bought it and read it. After trying to live with it for a while, though, I realized that I am not the intended audience. I think one reason may have to do with introversion vs. extroversion. I am a big introvert, and this approach to life satisfaction -- framing it in terms of buying experiences -- just doesn't resonate for me.

I was reading The Introvert Advantage a few days ago, and the author described extroverts as "collectors of experiences." In a nutshell, introverts don't need a lot of stimulation from the external world, are more oriented to the internal, and tend to reflect more on their experience. Extroverts, otoh, like a large variety of external world experiences; they don't reflect much on their experience -- it's on to the next experience. She referred to extroverts as "collectors of experiences."

I think that's part of why the book didn't quite land for me. I felt like the author was speaking to the type of person who is interested in a large variety of external world experiences. That's just not that big a motivator for me.

This is such insightful thinking - makes so much sense, as I'm an introvert too and what you say really resonates.

It's a tough balance - he's right about enjoying life while you're healthy and you can, vs hoarding more money senselessly.

But from some of his glib comments, like long term care concerns - like oh - you can insure for that - I got the distinct feeling he really didn't understand specific long-tail gaps most LTC insurance doesn't address - because he personally didn't experience these challenges in his family.

He also speaks from the enviable perch of a good safety net - he can blow dough because he's not alone - he has family to help if he really falls on hard times. Some don't and he doesn't consider that. He makes a lot of assumptions.

Depending upon what life throws at you in your final decades, ensuring a decent stash until the end could be the difference between enduring miserable months or years in a neglectful 1 star hellhole with angry, abusive staff because it's the only place who will take you as a medicaid patient - vs at least a somewhat decent living and care environment.

I don't mean to sound grim, but I speak from experience.

 

[GravitySucks]

I think there are also a lot of elderly gentlemen who work on cruise ships as paid dance partners for the widows who are regular passengers.

Shhhh!
I don't need the competition for my Plan B.

 

[Markola]

The book makes two points:

It’s all downhill from here, so if not now, when?

You can’t take it with you, so if you want something, what, really, are you waiting for?

 

[MarieIG]

This is such insightful thinking - makes so much sense, as I'm an introvert too and what you say really resonates.

It's a tough balance - he's right about enjoying life while you're healthy and you can, vs hoarding more money senselessly.

But from some of his glib comments, like long term care concerns - like oh - you can insure for that - I got the distinct feeling he really didn't understand specific long-tail gaps most LTC insurance doesn't address - because he personally didn't experience these challenges in his family.

He also speaks from the enviable perch of a good safety net - he can blow dough because he's not alone - he has family to help if he really falls on hard times. Some don't and he doesn't consider that. He makes a lot of assumptions.

Depending upon what life throws at you in your final decades, ensuring a decent stash until the end could be the difference between enduring miserable months or years in a neglectful 1 star hellhole with angry, abusive staff because it's the only place who will take you as a medicaid patient - vs at least a somewhat decent living and care environment.


I don't mean to sound grim, but I speak from experience.

Yes, very insightful. I see that a lot of people don't seem to respect the potential needs of their future, elderly self - or spouse.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

One of the categories we are spending our money on now isn't big experiences but functional medicine tests. Good health is priceless, but it seems these days about $1 - $2K in functional medicine tests that the regular doctors don't do can add years to your life. We have to pay out of pocket but most of the tests results now are pretty easy to follow. They have reports showing where we are out of range and recommendations on how to improve. Anything really off or not easily explainable can always go to the regular docs for further help.

I haven't gotten all the results yet, but so far I've found out three nutrient deficiencies and many other nutrients that were suboptimal, despite what I thought was a pretty healthy diet. I also found out I have two disorders that explained some of my recent symptoms, and both seem to be correctable with supplements and diet changes. I have some pretty important gut bacteria issues that should also be correctable, especially with the nutrient deficiencies corrected. I also had a couple of heavy metals I need to detox. So for under $2K per person, plus maybe another $2K for retesting, I think DH and I may have just added another 5 - 10 years to our lives.

The tests the regular doctors run didn't show any of this. Like how many regular doctors run tests for magnesium or zinc deficiencies, let alone molybdenum, yet deficiencies of any of those can cause an enormous amount of health issues. Right now it is possible to test most if not all vitamins and minerals, amino acids, neurotransmitters, toxic metals, etc. with simple lab tests. Many you can even do at home. So if you have the money, why not test everything and optimize every analyte possible?

It seems like one could be happier just by optimizing all your neurotranmitters, like dopamine and serotonin. Despite my other health issues, my happiness neurotransmitters were pretty high already, which is why I think I don't feel the need spend more money or have a lot of wants. Biochemically, I don't think spending more money would change my neurotransmitter status.

Next up I'm going to look into brain wave studies, like the ones that showed the Buddhist monk is the happiest person found so far.

 

[Chuckanut]

The tests the regular doctors run didn't show any of this. Like how many regular doctors run tests for magnesium or zinc deficiencies, let alone molybdenum, yet deficiencies of any of those can cause an enormous amount of health issues. Right now it is possible to test most if not all vitamins and minerals, amino acids, neurotransmitters, toxic metals, etc. with simple lab tests. Many you can even do at home. So if you have the money, why not test everything and optimize every analyte possible?

It seems like one could be happier just by optimizing all your neurotranmitters, like dopamine and serotonin. Despite my other health issues, my happiness neurotransmitters were pretty high already, which is why I think I don't feel the need spend more money or have a lot of wants. Biochemically, I don't think spending more money would change my neurotransmitter status.

You seem to be the type who should be following Dr. Peter Attia. This kind of stuff is right up his alley. He is big time into what I have heard called 'body hacking'. That is trying to control and optimize all those various vitamins, minerals, enzymes, hormones, etc. etc. etc. that the body either consumes or produces on its own. Doing the right exercises, in the right sequence, at the right times is part of it.

FWIW, while I am far from a body hacker, one major retirement benefit is being able to take better are of myself, and that include eating a better diet, exercising, and making good use competent people in the medical field. I may have to change my saying to "I spend most of my money on wine women and song, and improving my health. The rest I wasted."

Just a thought. I may have completely misjudged your intentions.

 

[MarieIG]

One of the categories we are spending our money on now isn't big experiences but functional medicine tests. Good health is priceless, but it seems these days about $1 - $2K in functional medicine tests that the regular doctors don't do can add years to your life. We have to pay out of pocket but most of the tests results now are pretty easy to follow. They have reports showing where we are out of range and recommendations on how to improve. Anything really off or not easily explainable can always go to the regular docs for further help.

I haven't gotten all the results yet, but so far I've found out three nutrient deficiencies and many other nutrients that were suboptimal, despite what I thought was a pretty healthy diet. I also found out I have two disorders that explained some of my recent symptoms, and both seem to be correctable with supplements and diet changes. I have some pretty important gut bacteria issues that should also be correctable, especially with the nutrient deficiencies corrected. I also had a couple of heavy metals I need to detox. So for under $2K per person, plus maybe another $2K for retesting, I think DH and I may have just added another 5 - 10 years to our lives.

The tests the regular doctors run didn't show any of this. Like how many regular doctors run tests for magnesium or zinc deficiencies, let alone molybdenum, yet deficiencies of any of those can cause an enormous amount of health issues. Right now it is possible to test most if not all vitamins and minerals, amino acids, neurotransmitters, toxic metals, etc. with simple lab tests. Many you can even do at home. So if you have the money, why not test everything and optimize every analyte possible?

It seems like one could be happier just by optimizing all your neurotranmitters, like dopamine and serotonin. Despite my other health issues, my happiness neurotransmitters were pretty high already, which is why I think I don't feel the need spend more money or have a lot of wants. Biochemically, I don't think spending more money would change my neurotransmitter status.

Next up I'm going to look into brain wave studies, like the ones that showed the Buddhist monk is the happiest person found so far.

Makes sense.

 

[HI Bill]

If only we knew our expiration date. I'm going with Variable Percentage Rate. My priority is to live as large as we can now, without risking running out of $. If we leave a multi-million legacy, I'll be fine with that, as we'll have balanced risk, lifestyle, and likely, make a large impact on a several organizations that can improve parts of the world.

 

[googily]

(oops, thought I had quoted the message about introvertism) But what you can do is spend on what makes your introvert self happy. Doesn't all necessarily have to be experiences.

Having just bought a second home so that I could have much more space and better scenery to not bother with other people, I am living up to this credo. [emoji1787]

 

[Letj]

One of the categories we are spending our money on now isn't big experiences but functional medicine tests. Good health is priceless, but it seems these days about $1 - $2K in functional medicine tests that the regular doctors don't do can add years to your life. We have to pay out of pocket but most of the tests results now are pretty easy to follow. They have reports showing where we are out of range and recommendations on how to improve. Anything really off or not easily explainable can always go to the regular docs for further help.

I haven't gotten all the results yet, but so far I've found out three nutrient deficiencies and many other nutrients that were suboptimal, despite what I thought was a pretty healthy diet. I also found out I have two disorders that explained some of my recent symptoms, and both seem to be correctable with supplements and diet changes. I have some pretty important gut bacteria issues that should also be correctable, especially with the nutrient deficiencies corrected. I also had a couple of heavy metals I need to detox. So for under $2K per person, plus maybe another $2K for retesting, I think DH and I may have just added another 5 - 10 years to our lives.

The tests the regular doctors run didn't show any of this. Like how many regular doctors run tests for magnesium or zinc deficiencies, let alone molybdenum, yet deficiencies of any of those can cause an enormous amount of health issues. Right now it is possible to test most if not all vitamins and minerals, amino acids, neurotransmitters, toxic metals, etc. with simple lab tests. Many you can even do at home. So if you have the money, why not test everything and optimize every analyte possible?

It seems like one could be happier just by optimizing all your neurotranmitters, like dopamine and serotonin. Despite my other health issues, my happiness neurotransmitters were pretty high already, which is why I think I don't feel the need spend more money or have a lot of wants. Biochemically, I don't think spending more money would change my neurotransmitter status.

Next up I'm going to look into brain wave studies, like the ones that showed the Buddhist monk is the happiest person found so far.

Do you mind sharing which lab you use? Do you have to actually work with a functional doctor to get these tests? Also, what do you plan on using to detox heavy metals?

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Do you mind sharing which lab you use? Do you have to actually work with a functional doctor to get these tests? Also, what do you plan on using to detox heavy metals?

We have a conventional medical doctors because they are what our insurance covers, but we've been ordering the functional medicine tests ourselves as extra info. If something really off comes up, we've taken it to our doctors for review. I've been going through self order places like Walkinlabs, Ultalabs, Directlabs and Mymedlabs, whichever place has the best prices. They all have frequent sales. Plus the Ombre gut test which doesn't require a doctor's order. The most informative tests so far have come from Genova Lab's Metabolomix+ and Diagnostic Solution's GI Map.

I've been using the Breseden Protocol for Alzheimer's (Bredesen Protocol - ApoE4.Info Wiki) and Rupa Health articles The 5 Most Commonly Ordered Functional Medicine Lab Tests (rupahealth.com) as general models of what to order. Mark Hyman videos have also been good resources which explain the various functional medicine approaches to different health issues and why conventional medicine often fails patients with these problems. This is a good one on leaky gut - What Is Leaky Gut And How Can You Treat It? with Dr. Elizabeth Boham - Dr. Mark Hyman (drhyman.com)

I just got the toxic elements report back so I don't have a plan for what to do about that yet.

 

[Luvtoride]

I calculate how much we can spend each year in order to Die With Zero...just an average per year...up to age 105.

That is our theoretical maximum budget. We may not make it to age 105, and we understand that, but this does encourage us to spend more than our frugal tendencies. We only NEED about 70% of this number each year, and the rest would be BTD items or experiences. These experiences can be physical things (kayaking, biking, pub crawls) or things we observe/live (world cruise, RV in Alaska, 6 week African safari, and those pub crawls.)

The idea for us that this book brought out was to let go of the purse strings a bit so that you are not hoarding $$ just for the next generation...but instead, use those funds for some of your own enjoyment. You are worth it. You earned it. If you want to share it with your heirs, give it to them while you are alive, rather than after you pass.

Personally, we would not do most of the activities that the author did...but the concept of DOING THINGS did hit home with us...and we were already doing a lot of that. Told the children not to expect an inheritance from us. At our age 105, they will be 75-85 and will have been retired for many years already. The kids, and their kids, need to be self-sufficient. We want enough $$ late in life to get fresh diapers each and every day.

Levin, you GET IT and it sounds like you’re embracing the concept of the book/ philosophy.
If it’s changed your thinking, that’s what the author intended to do. Personally I don’t think it’s even possible to Die with Zero, but the concepts in the book to get to that point/ balance in your life is well taken.

Fire traveler, it’s good that you found and read the book to expand your thinking about how you may want to live your remaining years (hopefully many). The part that resonated with me is that any legacy / inheritance that we would love to our family would be at a point later in their lives when they wouldn’t “need” it as much as during these years when spending it on experiences and helping them now.

I talk about this philosophy to anyone who wants to discuss retirement and their later years with me. My DW always rolls her eyes when I start as she doesn’t fully embrace the concept. But as a couple that have been thru our share of health issues and scares during our 50’s the importance of living for experiences is not lost on us in our 60’s and beyond. Having money, time and HEALTH are all the parts of the 3 legged stool.

We’re off to Aruba next week for our annual trip with our kids and grandkids. To me, that is what this book and concept is all about!

 

[Koolau]

Yeah, you know what BOAT stands for, right?


Bust
Out
Another
Thousand

I prefer: A hole in the water into which you pour money.

 

[tulak]

My goal isn’t to die broke. I’d prefer to either grow or maintain my net worth indefinitely, while building generational wealth.

I don’t mind my net worth dropping occasionally, but the overall trend should be up.

 

[Music Lover]

I'm 60. We have a house and a cabin. My plan is to sell my house around age 65 and start spending the proceeds. We'll either rent an inexpensive apartment or condo and spend most of summer at the cabin, and most of winter somewhere warm. Or not rent an apartment and spend spring, summer, and fall at the cabin and winter somewhere warm.

We won't die with zero but we plan to enjoy the money before we get too old.

 

[sengsational]

We’re off to Aruba next week for our annual trip with our kids and grandkids. To me, that is what this book and concept is all about!

This aspect of the book is what sunk-in with me, even though I'm introverted to some extent. I bought the kids and their SO's on an adventure last summer with DW and I. It made some great memories, but backfired, as the younger one and her boy friend had bought into some of the worldwide lunacy going on at the time and because we didn't disclose and obfuscated what we thought was an inconsequential possible exposure, they felt justified in spoiling the end of the adventure. Oh, well. That's the way things work sometimes. At least they still trust us to take care of their "baby" (a dog, actually).

The other big take away for me was that it's pretty dumb to wait until you die to gift to your kids. We got proceeds from DW's dad's house, and almost all of that ended up in the kids' accounts. It's hard ACA-wise, to gift more, but I'd do more if I could without the tax hit.

As for running out of money, I figure if my kids are responsible with finances, which they appear to be, it won't be hard to stretch what I have with a little help from the kids. I've given away the money with no strings, but they're both wonderful and amazing people... there's no way they'd see DW struggle. And we'd need to really spend a lot, and have bad luck for me to see the day with a worryingly low stash.

 

[bmcgonig]

This aspect of the book is what sunk-in with me, even though I'm introverted to some extent. I bought the kids and their SO's on an adventure last summer with DW and I. It made some great memories, but backfired, as the younger one and her boy friend had bought into some of the worldwide lunacy going on at the time and because we didn't disclose and obfuscated what we thought was an inconsequential possible exposure, they felt justified in spoiling the end of the adventure. Oh, well. That's the way things work sometimes. At least they still trust us to take care of their "baby" (a dog, actually).

The other big take away for me was that it's pretty dumb to wait until you die to gift to your kids. We got proceeds from DW's dad's house, and almost all of that ended up in the kids' accounts. It's hard ACA-wise, to gift more, but I'd do more if I could without the tax hit.

As for running out of money, I figure if my kids are responsible with finances, which they appear to be, it won't be hard to stretch what I have with a little help from the kids. I've given away the money with no strings, but they're both wonderful and amazing people... there's no way they'd see DW struggle. And we'd need to really spend a lot, and have bad luck for me to see the day with a worryingly low stash.

Can you explain the ACA tax problem you would have? I don’t understand that. You don’t have to pay taxes on any money you gift, right?

 

[bmcgonig]

We have a conventional medical doctors because they are what our insurance covers, but we've been ordering the functional medicine tests ourselves as extra info. If something really off comes up, we've taken it to our doctors for review. I've been going through self order places like Walkinlabs, Ultalabs, Directlabs and Mymedlabs, whichever place has the best prices. They all have frequent sales. Plus the Ombre gut test which doesn't require a doctor's order. The most informative tests so far have come from Genova Lab's Metabolomix+ and Diagnostic Solution's GI Map.

I've been using the Breseden Protocol for Alzheimer's (Bredesen Protocol - ApoE4.Info Wiki) and Rupa Health articles The 5 Most Commonly Ordered Functional Medicine Lab Tests (rupahealth.com) as general models of what to order. Mark Hyman videos have also been good resources which explain the various functional medicine approaches to different health issues and why conventional medicine often fails patients with these problems. This is a good one on leaky gut - What Is Leaky Gut And How Can You Treat It? with Dr. Elizabeth Boham - Dr. Mark Hyman (drhyman.com)

I just got the toxic elements report back so I don't have a plan for what to do about that yet.

GI Map needs a doctor to order it seems. Did you use one?

Edit: Got it. Thru the labs you mentioned. Thanks.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

GI Map needs a doctor to order it seems. Did you use one?

Edit: Got it. Thru the labs you mentioned. Thanks.

Right, the labs I mentioned provide the doctor's orders. Metabolomix, GI Maps and Thryve cover a lot with home test kits we send into the labs. The regular doctors labs may provide some nutrients like calcium, vitamin D and maybe iron in their tests and some biomarkers like cholesterol, but they usually leave out a lot. Like why test for calcium but not magnesium? Why test for B12 but not B9? That makes no sense. The rest of the vitamin and minerals that aren't already covered in the prior tests I'm getting done with Quest blood draw tests - like vitamin K, boron and zinc, plus a few other key biomarkers like IGF1 (cancer), uric acid (high and low levels are linked to lower mortality) and omega-3 fatty acids.

I was going to do food allergy tests, but some of the food issues I already knew I had have started clearing up with correcting the nutritional deficiencies, so I'm going to hold off on those. I also did some gene testing but in hindsight I would have held off on those as well, since the issues I sent the gene test for have also been clearing up, too. For us, the key testing seems to be coming down to improving our microbiome, vitamin, and mineral status.

 

[RobbieB]

I prefer: A hole in the water into which you pour money.

Hehe, yeah, the spigot is running for sure. But moving to Stockton just knocked 700 off the monthly bill and diesel is cheaper in the Delta than the Bay.

Market gains were a big reason I bought this boat, at least I sold when the price was high! And now the market tide recedes, the normal ebb & flow same as it ever was.

And not only do I have a boat, I have a second house -

 

[Koolau]

My goal isn’t to die broke. I’d prefer to either grow or maintain my net worth indefinitely, while building generational wealth.

I don’t mind my net worth dropping occasionally, but the overall trend should be up.

Pre-retirement, I recall running various net-worth calcs. and they always showed a rise in net worth following retirement, reaching a peak and then slowly declining. It all made sense as one sent down funds and then encountered inevitable inflation. But in our case, our net worth has gone up and continued to rise. I've gotten used to it. Watching what inflation has (theoretically) done to our NW has been a bit jarring. I realize that I do NOT want to die broke. It's good in theory, but in reality, the concept is frightening. YMMV

 

[Souschef]

I doubt that I will "die with zero" I am 84. and if I spend 100K a year for the next 10 years, I will still have some left over. Since I am in RMD territory, I do a lot of QCD's
This year, I will have done $18K in QCD's. In our tax bracket, it will also save me over $5K in taxes.
I am also gifting $16K to each of our 4 sons annually. I like the comment of "It is better from a warm hand than a cold one".
Another expense I have committed to is our granddaughter's tuition for nursing school. I like the quote attributed to Lincoln,"No man stands as tall as when he stoops to help a child".