Estate Planning - Cost?

[pb4uski]

The problem is that there are often issues with wills and trusts prepared by professionals too... and it is hard for most consumers to differentiate the great professionals from the not so great ones until it is too late.

 

[mathjak107]

the documents we had issues with were from different attorneys .

but they both had a common denominator .

they were both done by attornys who were either relatives or family friends and were not estate attorneys but general practicing attorneys .

they used canned documents where one size fits all and not very well i might add .

first thing i did when we were looking for an estate attorney was bring both documents that were problems to see if he could pick up on the faults .

he did within seconds of reading them

 

[ncbill]

Last time I did it for a terminally ill relative their lawyer charged ~$2,500 for a revocable living trust, pour-over will, health care POA, financial POA here.

I pushed for the above mostly to make things easier for me as primary caregiver anyway to handle their affairs, both before & after death.

Even though probate is supposedly "no big deal" where both they and I live, with everything moved into the trust their 'estate' got settled and money distributed to the beneficiaries within a week of their house being sold.

Versus I've been told by the executor that it will be over a year to receive my share of an estate going through probate even though the only assets are bank and brokerage accounts...had they been in a trust instead they could simply have been re-titled to the beneficiaries in short order.

BTW, even if DIY those in the USA want to make sure they use their state's model form for the health care POA.

Because at least one state requires what is essentially two forms...one for everyday health care decisions, but another to refuse or discontinue "life-sustaining" treatments, e.g. a ventilator or feeding tube.

 

[mathjak107]

so to give you an insight into the biggie .

my wife was married before and her step children were taken away by her deceased husbands first wife , never to be heard from again .

her deceased husbands parents owned a decent size construction company .

so grandpa put in his trust and will those children were to get nothing .

grandpa died and everything passed to my wifes husbands mom .


at one point my wifes husband died , but his mom was still alive ...

well when his mom died the documents called for my wife and son and her brother inlaw to inherit the company .


the courts were going over the tax records and making sure everything was paid before the transfer and realized there was no provision for my wifes husband dying before his mom . that is called predeceasing .


the court said the document was defective and not only may my wife not be eligible to inherit a thing , but the estranged step children may be partners instead . ....

that was because if their grandpas paper work is defective , the judge will go by their fathers will which called for treating all his kids equally .

he advised us to try to reach a settlement out of court before he rules .

so we did .

each step kid got 180k so that was 360k and legal fees were 100k .

that one missing sentence cost 500k .

ultimately we sold our share , made money on it so it was worth buying them out .

 

[euro]

In preparation for my meeting with the attorney, what information do I need to have available?

Make sure you (and spouse) have sorted through who will be the executor of the wills, the contingent executor, etc, as well as the POA and Health Powers people. Especially for after the 2nd death (most will list their spouse, but the surviving spouse will not have that luxury), or in the case where both of you die at the same time. For many (myself included), this is by far the trickiest aspect of the entire process.

 

[pb4uski]

....I've been told by the executor that it will be over a year to receive my share of an estate going through probate even though the only assets are bank and brokerage accounts...

That's why all of our financial accounts have designated beneficiaries... no probate at all nor a trust... easy peasy.

 

[gattara]

DH and I paid an attorney $1,500 for our wills and POA forms two years ago, here in Atlanta area.

 

[Happyras]

The problem is that there are often issues with wills and trusts prepared by professionals too... and it is hard for most consumers to differentiate the great professionals from the not so great ones until it is too late.

+1, believe me, I have worked with many lawyers, and they all make mistakes. That is why most use a canned software like Fore! Trust, which is driven by the specific laws of the state with specific language to assure proper documentation of intent.

I went shopping for a lawyer to prepare an IDGT, most had no clue what it was, and those that did, did not have the canned software module to write it. Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are lawyers and they do not write their own estate plans.

 

[GravitySucks]

Single guy. Upstate NY.
Paid $500+ about 6 years ago for the 3 docs OP cites using a firm that specializes in estates.
Same attorney did DMs will and POA last year for $600. He spent well over 4 hours listening to my and mom's concerns before drawing up the docs.

 

[PatrickA5]

That's why all of our financial accounts have designated beneficiaries... no probate at all nor a trust... easy peasy.

+1

Even though we have Wills (using an estate lawyer), if both DW and I were to die today, no probate would be necessary. All financial accounts are TOD/POD. Same for house.

 

[euro]

+1

Even though we have Wills (using an estate lawyer), if both DW and I were to die today, no probate would be necessary. All financial accounts are TOD/POD. Same for house.

Yes, definitely many upsides to this, BUT, there are downsides as well. If there are multiple heirs and multiple assets (brokerage, bank accounts, real estate, life insurance, etc), then it is actually quite difficult to keep track of the big picture of how much everyone stands to inherit. This is important if the goal is that everyone gets the same amount or a specific percentage. Case in point, my DM (5 children) wants to allocate a certain percentage to each of her heirs. She is 90 and mostly invested in short term CDs plus some real estate. She is into chasing yield, so at virtually every maturity date on of her 10 or so CDs, she will switch banks. While she is very sharp for her age, she does manage to mix up beneficiaries during such transitions, especially when more than one is due at the same time. So, once or twice a year, I try to help her sort it out and rebalance her allocations. To add insult to injury, she also has been known to change her mind (on a whim) on the %-ages for each heir, so that complicates the situation even more....
I am her designated executor, and I have come to the conclusion that it would actually be much simpler for me if she pulled all the TOD allocations and just just let me take it all through the probate process. Alas, she insists on keeping and (mis)managing the TODs....

 

[pb4uski]

Yes, definitely many upsides to this, BUT, there are downsides as well. If there are multiple heirs and multiple assets (brokerage, bank accounts, real estate, life insurance, etc), then it is actually quite difficult to keep track of the big picture of how much everyone stands to inherit. This is important if the goal is that everyone gets the same amount or a specific percentage. Case in point, my DM (5 children) wants to allocate a certain percentage to each of her heirs. She is 90 and mostly invested in short term CDs plus some real estate. She is into chasing yield, so at virtually every maturity date on of her 10 or so CDs, she will switch banks. While she is very sharp for her age, she does manage to mix up beneficiaries during such transitions, especially when more than one is due at the same time. So, once or twice a year, I try to help her sort it out and rebalance her allocations. To add insult to injury, she also has been known to change her mind (on a whim) on the %-ages for each heir, so that complicates the situation even more....
I am her designated executor, and I have come to the conclusion that it would actually be much simpler for me if she pulled all the TOD allocations and just just let me take it all through the probate process. Alas, she insists on keeping and (mis)managing the TODs....

She might be best off to go with a brokerage account and then buy brokered CDs and USTs... besides, these days the yields are much better than most bank or credit union CDs (though that isn't always the case). For example, Navy Federal 5 year CD is 2.80% and PenFed is 2.85% but 5 year brokered CDs are 3.30% and 5 year UST is 3.04%... so you get better rates, everything is under one-roof and you can have a single beneficiary designation for the whole account.

Our designations are easy... primary is 100% spouse and contingent are 50/50 to our two kids.

 

[OldShooter]

In preparation for my meeting with the attorney, what information do I need to have available?

You need all the numbers and all the family facts, of course. Beyond that the more educated you are the better the product will be and probably cheaper, too. Collecting SGOTI's opinions is useful for self-education but as you read, remember the Dunning-Kruger effect. The gist of this is that the people who know the least about a subject are the ones most certain about their opinions.

The problem is that there are often issues with wills and trusts prepared by professionals too... and it is hard for most consumers to differentiate the great professionals from the not so great ones until it is too late.

Yes, this is also true of CPAs, indepentent insurance agents, and doctors. To me, referrals are the best method to winnow down the options. When DW was working in trusts & estates, her legal beagles just cringed when documents came in drafted by a local attorney who held himself out as an expert. The best referrals would probably come from probate judges, but good luck finding one who would be willing to talk.

 

[gayl]

My parents paid an attorney 5k to do their trust + more to retitle the house she bought after dad died. He was wrong. Wells Fargo officer helped us straighten it out pro bono.

I put all investment & bank accounts on TOD / POD. County helped me retitle house correctly so that passes to 2 kids w/o issue + they inherit current property tax basis (important in California).

Leaves just small estate under 1 page small estate affidavit.

Parents cost = 6k + WF to correct
My cost = $25.00 to retitled house + ~$1.00 for 5 copies of small estate affidavit
But total worth is only low-mid 7s

 

[Midpack]

In preparation for my meeting with the attorney, what information do I need to have available?

Our attorney told us in advance what documents were needed, and sent out a questionnaire that we completed and returned in advance. No reason to fumble around gathering data in the first meeting, a waste of the attorney and your time. Yours hasn't?

 

[G-Man]

Anyone living in Virginia and can recommend a great estate planning attorney?

 

[Ian S]

Some megacorps offer access to a legal plan that you pay for annually; in my case it was because of a small pension I get. Most of the cost of wills, living wills, POA's and even a living trust for DH and me was covered by the plan (offered through MetLife.) It's something to look into. Our plan covers a lot of other things but the estate planning alone made it worthwhile.

 

[Ian S]

Our attorney told us in advance what documents were needed, and sent out a questionnaire that we completed and returned in advance. No reason to fumble around gathering data in the first meeting, a waste of the attorney and your time. Yours hasn't?

That's a great point. I remember our estate attorney providing us with an extensive questionnaire to fill out before we even saw the guy.

 

[Cobra9777]

That's why all of our financial accounts have designated beneficiaries... no probate at all nor a trust... easy peasy.

+1

Even though we have Wills (using an estate lawyer), if both DW and I were to die today, no probate would be necessary. All financial accounts are TOD/POD. Same for house.

+2

All financial accounts have beneficiary or POD designations. Real estate and motor vehicles are all TOD as well. When we're gone, there will be no probate, no trust, no lawyers, no lengthy process other than our two kids sorting through our household crap.

We have wills just in case, but they will probably never be used for anything. So they are of the low-cost, online, DIY variety.

Full and fair disclosure... Our situation is about as simple and straightforward as it can get. No divorces, no kids from prior relationships, no infighting, no businesses, no complicated assets or scenarios. If any of that changes, we will adapt accordingly. But right now, I'm very confident that our simple, DIY set-up will achieve exactly what we want.

 

[Morgan22]

+2

All financial accounts have beneficiary or POD designations. Real estate and motor vehicles are all TOD as well. When we're gone, there will be no probate, no trust, no lawyers, no lengthy process other than our two kids sorting through our household crap.

We have wills just in case, but they will probably never be used for anything. So they are of the low-cost, online, DIY variety.

Full and fair disclosure... Our situation is about as simple and straightforward as it can get. No divorces, no kids from prior relationships, no infighting, no businesses, no complicated assets or scenarios. If any of that changes, we will adapt accordingly. But right now, I'm very confident that our simple, DIY set-up will achieve exactly what we want.

Same for us. I feel that if you have a simple situation then why bother with trusts, etc. Everything should be held JTWROS where possible, and POD's added to all accounts/assets if possible. Then a simple will to cover how to split contents of house or apartment if necessary.

 

[mathjak107]

Make sure your state accepts tod accounts from brokerages .

For the longest time I had no idea ny didn’t accept tod accounts on my fidelity account .

Ny changed their laws so now they are okay but everyone needs to check their own state

 

[Happyras]

Anyone living in Virginia and can recommend a great estate planning attorney?

You are so lucky, they abolished the estate tax in Virginia in 2007. Those of us in WA are not so fortunate and have to have estate planning not just to avoid probate, but to preserve exemptions from State death taxes. POD and TOD would be nice, but no bueno for using a QTIP.

 

[Which Roger]

+2

All financial accounts have beneficiary or POD designations. Real estate and motor vehicles are all TOD as well. When we're gone, there will be no probate, no trust, no lawyers, no lengthy process other than our two kids sorting through our household crap.

We have wills just in case, but they will probably never be used for anything. So they are of the low-cost, online, DIY variety.

Full and fair disclosure... Our situation is about as simple and straightforward as it can get. No divorces, no kids from prior relationships, no infighting, no businesses, no complicated assets or scenarios. If any of that changes, we will adapt accordingly. But right now, I'm very confident that our simple, DIY set-up will achieve exactly what we want.

Similar situation for DW and I, except even simpler because we have no kids. Everything except personal possessions is covered by beneficiary designation or TOD (with most going to charity, some to siblings). For will, DW and I have each other as executor and sole heir. Sibling is contingent for both. And the only thing in the will is personal possessions, so we will provide informal instructions about how to give away whatever they don't want.



Which gives me an opportunity to ask my question: If the only thing in the will is personal possessions (which really don't have any formal proof of ownership), are the courts even interested/involved in doing anything? Does the executor/sole heir need to take any formal action when the person dies?

 

[G-Man]

Some megacorps offer access to a legal plan that you pay for annually; in my case it was because of a small pension I get. Most of the cost of wills, living wills, POA's and even a living trust for DH and me was covered by the plan (offered through MetLife.) It's something to look into. Our plan covers a lot of other things but the estate planning alone made it worthwhile.

Thanks for reminding me. It looks like my employer has an annual service we can sign up for that does at the minimum wills and POA. Roughly around $20 per month.

 

[G-Man]

Thanks for reminding me. It looks like my employer has an annual service we can sign up for that does at the minimum wills and POA. Roughly around $20 per month.

Looks like Trust is included as well. The enrollment period to sign up for the service is not until October of this year. This is great.