How To Advise Brother Who Does Not Get It?

[wolf]

+1,+2,+3,+4,+5,.....

Such good advice.

 

[haha]

Dear Abbey had a column recently that dealt with same issue. I was kind of surprised that she lite into the writer for getting into someone else's business, no matter how good the intentions were.... I should have wrote to her 10 years ago and followed the advise. I have gotten nowhere with a close friend the past 10 years, and it's even worse now. Tried suggestions, hints, plans, and chewing his ass off. None of them worked. Though the friendship never suffered, I am more at peace with our friendship giving up, knowing it really isn't my problem or concern.
He never got mad at me, but I am sure he is happy I don't bring it up anymore as I am sure he was tired of listening!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have 2 brothers. One was drinking very heavily, and I mentioned that he might be hurting his health and was certainly hurting his family. He paid no attention but just got very cold toward me. Then a couple months later he drove home drunk when my other brother was at his house. They got into a fist fight that went so far as the drunk brother having his head rammed into his brick house. Only thing that did was knock him out for a while. Slowed down his drinking as long as he was out but really not much beyond that. These are middle class, educated, job holding middle aged men.

IMO, people are basically a lost cause. And it can be dangerous to piss them off. As existentialist author John-Paul Sartre wrote, "l'enfer c'est les autres" Basically, hell is other people.

Ha

 

[old woman]

I only give advise to one person and he is 18 and asked. His mother and grandparents asked me to talk to him and I declined but then he asked himself. I was a CPA and I saved over a million dollars so they all think I should be the one to ask about money. Boy's father wanted him to study accounting, mother wanted him to work with disabled kids, I wanted to stay out of it. Boy decided to study finance and accounting and wanted to learn investing. I explained 401K, ROTH and IRA to him and answered a few questions not lecturing. When he was home from college for Christmas he asked a few more things and told me he really used accounting in finance he was surprised. I am giving him basic advice like he wants to work for a hedge fund this summer as an intern in Switzerland with his uncle. I told him not to get tattoos that show and to get a good interview suit. I also warned him to keep his credit record and criminal record squeaky clean. He was already planning to buy the interview suit, he seems to know it is important and his tattoo is on his leg so he looks very clean cut.
I have given him about 11K so far for college so he is willing to talk to me about school. If he doesn't want advice or messes up at all I am done helping. If he comes home before April 15 I plan to buy him his first ROTH matching what he earned last year busing tables and teach him index fund.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I agree with the other comments. If he wanted to be different he would have already. As hard as it is to see his daughters not able to enjoy the trip, it will be better for them in the long run. Maybe the dad is a lost cause, but the daughters might learn something from this.

I have also found in my own limited experience, that financially helping someone just produces more dependence and anger. Next time they will want even more, and wonder why, since you have so much, that you give so little.

 

[2B]

Even when people have asked for my financial advice, I've had exactly one convert and I married her. Beyond that, it has had either no or negative consequences to the relationship.

Wish it were not so.

I have had very similar experiences. If personal finance comes up, I'm usually comparing various versions of LBYM and conservative investing or being confronted with someone that spends every penny and is looking for more. Discussions of index funds versus diversified individual stocks or bond funds versus CDs are probably more useful. We at least talked about things we generally understand.

With the big spenders, it's like we're from different planets. I've even been asked to help someone set up a budget and investment plan. Neither was ever implemented. I don't get involved anymore unless asked and then I just give reading advice with a "if you have any questions...." end to the initial discussion.

 

[travelover]

......... I've even been asked to help someone set up a budget and investment plan. Neither was ever implemented.........

DW went so far as to take actual possession of a flaky relative's check book so DW could pay the bills directly. When the checks started bouncing, DW found out she should have impounded the ATM card, too.

 

[Accidental Retiree]

I explained 401K, ROTH and IRA to him and answered a few questions not lecturing. When he was home from college for Christmas he asked a few more things and told me he really used accounting in finance he was surprised.

I have given him about 11K so far for college so he is willing to talk to me about school. If he doesn't want advice or messes up at all I am done helping. If he comes home before April 15 I plan to buy him his first ROTH matching what he earned last year busing tables and teach him index fund.

I like your style!

 

[Del Q]

I've got an older brother who has been totally dependent on our parents since he was a child. They set him up to take over the family farm and I watched him lose everything, but he drove a Lincoln and vacations overseas twice a year. Still does years later, they pay him not to farm now. They've even asked me to help him financially because "I've been lucky and have some money" I did help him meet with a banker to restructure his debt, but he ignored any financial advice I've given him. He walked away from the note he owed my parents (over 6 figures), and still lives in their house while they moved to a tiny apartment. He's 53. The only advice I can offer is don't enable your brother and don't let him get at your parents' money either. I feel bad for his children and hope they don't learn his habits.

 

[Sarah in SC]

DW went so far as to take actual possession of a flaky relative's check book so DW could pay the bills directly. When the checks started bouncing, DW found out she should have impounded the ATM card, too.

I run the entire financial life of a friend, as well, but fortunately he's a thrifty sort who definitely wouldn't knowingly bounce checks, just forgets to pay the bills!

We once paid for a younger couple to attend a Dave Ramsey seminar in town, and it was a great experience. I think they got a lot out of it (we went with them) and I hope the lessons on LBYM stuck.

 

[Sue J]

Looking for advice if I should confront brother on financial matters. Goal is to get him to change his ways, downsize, adopt principles of sound finances. Danger is he will rebel and we'll have strained relationship forever. It kills me that he is living with maxed out credit cards, paycheck to paycheck, raising 2 daughters largely on his own (divorced). Completely born into the American consumerism bs. He's 46 now. Do we let let the house of cards fall at some ponit or intervene and try to save him? Any advice?

It sounds like it's your goal, not his and that's the problem. About all you can do is talk about how you don't live on your credit cards, how secure you feel not having to live paycheck to paycheck, how you are looking forward to the day you can retire because you've been living within your means and making a plan. If he comes close to asking how you manage to do that, then start with a simple bit of advice, like, "Do you know what you spend every month? If you kept track maybe you'd find something you'd be willing to cut back on to make it work."

The only time I gave advice was when my sister asked for help straightening out her checking account. She couldn't understand why her checks were bouncing if her last statement said she had money. She was recently divorced, hurting and emotionally needy. She thought her retail therapy was helping but the chaos and debt was crushing her. I helped her straighten out her checkbook and even wrote her a tutorial on how to manage a checking account, because she couldn't even manage addition and subtraction at that point.

I could help her with the checkbook but when she showed me the laundry basket full of months of unopened bills (multiple maxed out credit cards, utilities, bank overdraft fees, condo HOA fees) I knew it was a bigger problem. She solved that declaring bankruptcy (not my advice) and marrying the right guy.

 

[Gill]

I asked him "Does she have bit t*ts?" His answer was "Yes."

You can't help those that don't want to be helped.

I assume you meant "big".
Bruce

 

[Mulligan]

Looking back it is easy to figure out who is not willing to change. Most of my friends I have talked to with poor money management had the same common denominators. Unwilling to consider changes in cable bill, high dollar phone plans, and refusal to eat out less (which is very often). If the low hanging fruit was off limits, there was little chance in addressing other issues.
The one friend I did have success with has adopted all above. But caveat was, he wanted to improve his situation and "saw the light". Now all he talks about is how stupid he was the past 20 years... He doesn't need to feel too upset however. He just needed to get out of debt which he finally has. He will have a combined household pension of over $130k a year. He will be fine now...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Tailgate]

I have a 45 year old nephew who is going on 15... gave up trying to help him..lost cause.

'You can't push a rope' kinda sums it up...

 

[haha]

I could help her with the checkbook but when she showed me the laundry basket full of months of unopened bills (multiple maxed out credit cards, utilities, bank overdraft fees, condo HOA fees) I knew it was a bigger problem. She solved that declaring bankruptcy (not my advice) and marrying the right guy.

If frugality fails, sex appeal is always a good fallback.

Ha

 

[Mulligan]

If frugality fails, sex appeal is always a good fallback.



Ha

It certainly has worked on extracting many a dollar from me over the years.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[dtbach]

If it was me, most definitely not. Where I come from trips are discretionary luxuries, firmly in the category of "If you can't pay cash you can't afford it". End of discussion.

Now, others may have a more tolerant view.

+1
I did this with for a friend (a nephew of 2 others on the fishing trip) and all it caused was grief. I put in money and then was accused of not "doing enough". And I wasn't even related. Next trip we all pay "full freight"

 

[travelover]

I run the entire financial life of a friend, as well, but fortunately he's a thrifty sort who definitely wouldn't knowingly bounce checks, just forgets to pay the bills! .............

Wanna trade?

 

[Al in Ohio]

He's your bro. You owe it to him to at least give it a shot. Point out all the advantages first and just talk up to him. Be humble. You have have little to lose and lots to gain.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[MRG]

I have a 45 year old nephew who is going on 15... gave up trying to help him..lost cause.

'You can't push a rope' kinda sums it up...

My nephew is not quite as old. His resume:
High school - check
Creating a baby - check
Drug addict - excellent A+
Stealing from his family - excellent
State Peniteraty - showed initiative and creativity; bought drugs while incarcerated
Making coffee at 12 step programs - check
Staying out of the system - god, I really hope he gets it

Thing I know is; I don't have the power to "fix" him. I can only hope that he finds his power.

He has no skills and a bunch of debt. Legal fees, back child support, won't be easy but it's his only hope.

 

[clifp]

A success story

Well I have a success story, in fact I was so happy I was going to start a thread but this seems more apropos.

Since being retired, and learning about retirement finances, I have provided lots of in depth guidance to people on forums. By this I mean plug numbers into FireCalc, check quotes on immediateannuities, check funds, do an xray on Morningstar and then write up a several paragraphs. On average these take an hour to do, and I've probably done nearly 1 a month for the last 10-12 years. Beats being moderate as way of giving back. Now less than 1/2 the time do they anything beside lip service. But I guess about 25% of they actually pay attention to the advice and I other give and change behavior. Perhaps 10% do they specifically comeback and thank me.

What has been frustrating to me is my track with real life friends and family has been awful, my best friend is still using Amerprise , two other younger friends are still living paycheck to paycheck. But last week after years of trying I finally got my eldest sister and her recently retired husband to roll their 700K 401K over to Vanguard. I suggested they put the money into Wellesley and Wellington, they added Windsor. They meet with a Vanguard rep (for some reason Vanguard financial adviser really don't like the Ws.) and after some joint discussion, they have good mix of Wellesley, Wellington, Total Stock Market/International and modest amount of index bond funds. And a plan for withdrawing and rebalancing


Now they made plenty of mistake along the way selling out in late 2008 and keeping 1/2 their funds in cash during the recovering. The spent 300K to buy a variable annuity, and now 5 years later my warning about fees is really sinking in. So I guess my point to the OP is don't give up hope, but don't expect miracles or change overnight.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

if you are close to the daughters and can afford it you might want to assist them with college, your brother probably didn't plan for that either, much more important then a trip to Europe

On this I would agree, but would attach strings to even helping the daughters (for them follow, not the brother). His spendthrifty ways may have rubbed off on them, so any help given should come with strict requirements (e.g., good grades, no drugs, no out-of-wedlock kids, etc...) They will be far more likely to stick to such restrictions, since they're not yet earning their own money.

 

[timemoveson]

more proactive stance...

I have found that I am in the more aggressive camp now that I am older, more established in my confidence and frankly have much more to offer that is tangible and useful advice, not just intuitive insight. I don't hesitate to provide input or guidance in a peer-level conversation. I give it to them in an organized and logical way. It's pretty hard to argue. They don't have to accept it, buy it, or do anything with it. I feel better doing it and it has definitely worked more than once so I intend on continuing to do it when the opportunity to help arises and I care about the person involved even a little. Just me of course.

 

[Badger]

He's your bro. You owe it to him to at least give it a shot. Point out all the advantages first and just talk up to him. Be humble. You have have little to lose and lots to gain.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

Not sure I understand. I can see having a lot to lose and little to gain.

Cheers!

 

[rayvt]

Ok. I want to put a twist on this. There are 3 of us brothers. 2 of us are fairly well off (both of us will ER in our mid 50's). The younger brother is the issue. So, we have this fantastic trip to Europe planned for the summer. Affordable, not too over the top. Younger brother wants to increase his credit line on his credit cards so he and his 2 daughters can make the trip. Do you pony up $1k each to offset his expenses so his kids get the opportunity or do you leave him alone to figure out the finances on his own and possibly miss or mess up the trip for the rest of us?

I have a different take on this than some earlier posters.

My thought is: Why do you think you have the right to run his life?

And why do you feel that him wanting to buy something for his kids somehow imposes an obligation on you to pay for it?

 

[mountaintosea]

My older brother said to me recently he likes fixing cars. They can be fixed. But people can't be fixed.