If You Weren't Cynical Before, Fall Into a VAT

[Zero]

Texas Proud,
here is a receipt from 1995. So it looks like it's been there for a while.
http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/3893/MU120_4MCAL_receipt.jpg

EDIT: It seemed to me that many shops did not have a register that broke it out. I know most chemists shops like Boots did but the small corner ones did not.

 

[chinaco]

The surplus SS and Medicare payments were spent by the govt and they issued special bonds as IOUs. Guess who pays off the Bonds? Tax Payers. Guess how they are going to raise the revenue to pay-off the IOUs? VAT or Some other Consumption Tax.

Why Consumption tax? But will it be for goods, services or both? What will be exempt (if anything)? A consumption tax is progressive... people who have more tend to spend more (across all demographics and classes). Additional income tax is not popular. Additional cap gains taxes would probably cause people to take less risk with capital.

So the choices are cut spending, raise taxes, or both. The new big expenses coming at the US Govt (baby boomer SS and Medicare).

However, a consumption tax is tricky... it could drive grey/black markets, people going out of the country, etc. Plus collection can be a big cost.

I believe the tax will be on certain forms of energy consumption. For the most part, the method of collection is easier, that cost gets passed along to consumers directly or indirectly. Energy is embedded in every product or service. To offset product imports, the govt will probably assign some sort of tax on imports to not give foreign manufacturers an advantage or to make exports energy tax free (or possibly a combination of both).

The govt might do this with a Fossil Fuel Tax/Carbon Tax and assign a value to all imports or exports. This might actually be better for America considering that Asia countries are doing an arbitrage on dirty energy as part of their lower manufacturing cost ans selling to the US (who is the worlds largest consumer).


Bottom Line: We are going to pay more taxes... hopefully those taxes are crafted to help America achieve certain her goals (energy independence, jobs in America) and not another advantage to China and India!

 

[Nodak]

That's what I was thinking. I remember when there was an excise tax on luxury goods...anyway I think I do. Was that in the 60s or 70s when that tax was lifted or am I imagining that?

You remember correctly, it was a holdover from WWII and expired in the 60s. As for the current situation, when November rolls around my policy will be "vote the bums out, all of them."

 

[Texas Proud]

Texas Proud,
here is a receipt from 1995. So it looks like it's been there for a while.
http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/3893/MU120_4MCAL_receipt.jpg

EDIT: It seemed to me that many shops did not have a register that broke it out. I know most chemists shops like Boots did but the small corner ones did not.

OKKKKK.... I wish I had some from where I was over there.... I do NOT remember seeing anything on the bottom of my receipts... but then again.. it really did not matter as I had to pay it...

 

[Texas Proud]

Decided to look this up....

Here is from the UK Vat program:

When you sell goods or services that incorporate a VAT charge you must supply your customer with a VAT invoice. Generally the VAT invoice should include the VAT amount paid, your companies VAT registration number, a unique invoice number and the date the invoice was raised.

You must retain all VAT records including invoices and receipts for a 6 year period. These may be required by law. Remember that a VAT receipt for a purchase you have made through your business is a right to claim back the VAT paid, without this you legally have no right to claim back the VAT.

You must notify HM Revenue and Customs within 30 days if any of the details for your company change.

You must charge VAT on supplies made to the company's employees or inter-company transactions.

You should not claim back VAT on personal expenses.




SOOOO, I guess they DID provide the VAT on the receipts... seems that you NEED this info just in case you are adding value and selling it to someone else... so you can get your 'refund' of the VAT you paid....

 

[robjr100]

Flim Flam Artists

It`s amazing how the government can`t get anything right.Just by accident right?

It looks like they`ve looted social security.Get ready for that to be slashed.
These criminals will be stealing our pensions,401ks and IRAs before it`s over.
Of course let`s not forget to tax us to death first.

Stop believing these con men.They want to take us to third world status.

 

[samclem]

A consumption tax is progressive... people who have more tend to spend more (across all demographics and classes).

I think you'll find yourself in the minority in your opinion on this one. Unless all kinds of goods are exempted (leading to all kinds of trickery and enforcement issues), a consumption tax is regressive. People with lower incomes spend a higher proportion of what they earn.

 

[dex]

I think you'll find yourself in the minority in your opinion on this one. Unless all kinds of goods are exempted (leading to all kinds of trickery and enforcement issues), a consumption tax is regressive. People with lower incomes spend a higher proportion of what they earn.

All taxes that manufactures/service providers/etc collect are summarily regressive. But, advocates for the poor don't raise that as an issue.

 

[Sevo]

This discussion is fun but just like the federal take over of health care we have zero input on this. The people who are in power have no choice but to keep stealing from us and giving to the "less fortunate" who will continue to vote to keep them in power.

The big concern is that any one who has enough assets to even contemplate early retirement is wealthy by the standards of the average voter who is working as hard as they can just to make it paycheck to paycheck or are working as hard as they can to keep their government issued entitlement check coming in. We are squarely in the cross hairs.

Hang on and Hope, that's all we can do now.

 

[haha]

This discussion is fun but just like the federal take over of health care we have zero input on this. The people who are in power have no choice but to keep stealing from us and giving to the "less fortunate" who will continue to vote to keep them in power.

Don't forget the kleptocrats' other constituency- Wall Street. Pols hand out cash to the "poor" to get votes, and hand out friendly laws and dispensations to the Wall Streeters to keep that cash source flowing back to the pols. And of course since many of the Washington elite will be heading to Wall Street when they get tired of Washington's muggy summers they want to stay on very friendly terms with the masters of the universe.

The US is only a few short steps above the African kleptocracies- mostly only a matter of style.

Ha

 

[Zathras]

This discussion is fun but just like the federal take over of health care we have zero input on this. The people who are in power have no choice but to keep stealing from us and giving to the "less fortunate" who will continue to vote to keep them in power.

I disagree. Have you seen how malleable large portions of the populace are?
They have no concept of logical arguments and are easily swayed by glitzy marketing ads.

 

[Zero]

I disagree. Have you seen how malleable large portions of the populace are?
They have no concept of logical arguments and are easily swayed by glitzy marketing ads.

Very true, but equally true that those who think they are immune to the hammer do often have the same ability for adaptive change. It's all in the sophistication of Mr. Svengali.

A Modest proposal

Require presidential candidates to have a detailed platform on which they are running and that it be a legal contract from the president to the people. The president is required to stay in office until he/she is able to have a perfectly balanced budget. Else they face a prison term of 20 years.

Make it a federal law that everyone "must" vote.

Whoever wins is obligated to run the programs that he/she legally signed up for in their platform.

Those citizens who voted for the winning candidate are then designated as taxpayers and required to pay the amount of tax to fully fund the winners programs.

Those citizens who voted for the loser are not required to pay tax.

 

[Sevo]

Very true, but equally true that those who think they are immune to the hammer do often have the same ability for adaptive change. It's all in the sophistication of Mr. Svengali.

A Modest proposal

Require presidential candidates to have a detailed platform on which they are running and that it be a legal contract from the president to the people. The president is required to stay in office until he/she is able to have a perfectly balanced budget. Else they face a prison term of 20 years.

Make it a federal law that everyone "must" vote.

Whoever wins is obligated to run the programs that he/she legally signed up for in their platform.

Those citizens who voted for the winning candidate are then designated as taxpayers and required to pay the amount of tax to fully fund the winners programs.

Those citizens who voted for the loser are not required to pay tax.

That is not a modest proposal that is brilliant.

 

[Sevo]

Don't forget the kleptocrats' other constituency- Wall Street. Pols hand out cash to the "poor" to get votes, and hand out friendly laws and dispensations to the Wall Streeters to keep that cash source flowing back to the pols. And of course since many of the Washington elite will be heading to Wall Street when they get tired of Washington's muggy summers they want to stay on very friendly terms with the masters of the universe.

The US is only a few short steps above the African kleptocracies- mostly only a matter of style.

Ha

Ha you know I had a discussion with a gentleman from India the other day. He moved here 30 years ago to get away from the poverty brought on by corruption. We both laughed when he pointed out that in that thirty years the US has deteriorated to the point that it is about like India . In his words the only difference is that in India they have the sensitivity to pass the money under the table. "here the government just calls it a stimulus plan and hand out billions to in plain view to political allies "

 

[billin]

In my humble opinion, the only tax that isn't cheated on or doesn't have a well worn work around is the tax that hasn't yet been invented. The tax that is least evaded is the cheapest tax. Just the way things work.


The VAT is being bandied about a lot of late but has anyone weighed the Constitutionality of it? That thing, the Constitution, the one with all the shreds, footprints, and blood is still in force no matter how much people try to ignore it. It may even come out of hiding and rip health care a new orifice....

 

[Sevo]

The VAT is being bandied about a lot of late but has anyone weighed the Constitutionality of it? That thing, the Constitution, the one with all the shreds, footprints, and blood is still in force no matter how much people try to ignore it. It may even come out of hiding and rip health care a new orifice....

If it is still legal and allowed let's offer up a prayer that some one some where in Washington will take time to read the 10 th amendment..

 

[MichaelB]

Ha you know I had a discussion with a gentleman from India the other day. He moved here 30 years ago to get away from the poverty brought on by corruption. We both laughed when he pointed out that in that thirty years the US has deteriorated to the point that it is about like India . In his words the only difference is that in India they have the sensitivity to pass the money under the table. "here the government just calls it a stimulus plan and hand out billions to in plain view to political allies "

The United States is nothing like India and it would take many decades for India to achieve the socio-political and economic infrastructure the US enjoys today.

 

[Sevo]

The United States is nothing like India and it would take many decades for India to achieve the socio-political and economic infrastructure the US enjoys today.

I fully agree with you that economically right now and I hope for my life time we are way ahead of India....

On the socio political aspect.. I really don't see much difference. We are both huge countries that are comprised of many different cultural groups at odds with each other. We have no common culture to share. As a matter of fact is, if we have a national culture it is "multiculturalism". Our politicians are cut from the same cloth theirs are . We are very lucky but we are not superior in any way. We have just had the incredible good luck to live in a country that at one time had a culture of Libertarianism and basic honesty that made us truly unique and led us to wealth and Liberty.. That is gone for good now. The best we can hope for from here on out is a Western European form of socialism/ authoritarianism .....

Hang on and hope! prepare for a VAT and other forms of taxation on "unearned" income. We haven't seen anything yet.

 

[clifp]

I think we should just cut to the chase and implement my two line tax form.

1. How much did you make? Include all salary, dividends, interest, stock gains, gambling winnings, and gifts from Granny.
2. Send it in.

 

[Alan]

Does anybody know when they started to put the VAT on the receipt

I lived in London in late '99 to early '01. I bought a lot of stuff and not one receipt had a VAT on it... I went to other countries and they did not include VAT. The only time I knew what the VAT was was when I was in Switzerland and bought a watch. They asked if I was going to apply to get my VAT back. I said 'yes', not knowing what I needed to do. The receipt had the VAT. Maybe the EU made a change and forced them to put the VAT on the receipt.

PS... I did NOT get my VAT back as you had to spend more money than I did... so screwed on that one....

VAT initially was introduced by the Thatcher government in the 80's I believe. It was to be 15% initially but the House of Lords rejected it and it was re-submitted and approved at 10%, but it didn't take long to get it up to 15%.

I used to travel on business in those days when it was newly introduced and when we bought things on expenses such as meals, hotel rooms etc we often received a regular receipt, and had to ask specifically for a VAT receipt - the company accountants would get real upset if we presented receipts with expense reports that didn't have the VAT broken out.

 

[MichaelB]

On the socio political aspect.. I really don't see much difference. We are both huge countries that are comprised of many different cultural groups at odds with each other. We have no common culture to share. As a matter of fact is, if we have a national culture it is "multiculturalism". Our politicians are cut from the same cloth theirs are . We are very lucky but we are not superior in any way. We have just had the incredible good luck to live in a country that at one time had a culture of Libertarianism and basic honesty that made us truly unique and led us to wealth and Liberty.. That is gone for good now. The best we can hope for from here on out is a Western European form of socialism/ authoritarianism ..... .

??
I think our views on the US are so different that it's pointless to discuss it further. I am, however, profoundly grateful to have been born and raised here and not there, even if you see them as alike, and hope my grandchildren have the same good fortune.

 

[FinanceDude]

With respect to the Reuters link, Volker mentions an energy tax as well as the VAT. An energy tax is a much easier sell politically. Especially if it is put in place as a "cap and trade" regime with gradually increasing auctions for carbon. It is far, far sneakier than a VAT and has the much easier sell of being necessary to save the planet.

VAT is DOA. Long live Cap & Trade.

That would kill the economy, is that what you want? The US is already regulated beyond belief under the EPA. Another punitive tax without scientific merit is needed?

 

[ERD50]

bold mine:

Especially if it is put in place as a "cap and trade" regime with gradually increasing auctions for carbon. It is far, far sneakier than a VAT and has the much easier sell of being necessary to save the planet.

VAT is DOA. Long live Cap & Trade.

That would kill the economy, is that what you want? ... Another punitive tax without scientific merit is needed?

From what I've read, the same scientists who claim that we are killing the planet with carbon are also saying it would take much more extreme measures than some mild Cap & Trade bill the US would pass to actually make much of a difference.

So we can kill the US economy and still kill the planet! Two for one!


-ERD50

 

[Gone4Good]

That would kill the economy, is that what you want? The US is already regulated beyond belief under the EPA. Another punitive tax without scientific merit is needed?

I wasn't commenting on "what I wanted" or on the scientific validity of global warming (I believe we've had other threads on that you could refer to).

The clear intention of the quote was to suggest that a "Cap & Trade" scheme, sold as an environmental necessity, is a much easier political lift than a VAT.

 

[superdave]

The Canadian Perspective

So, I'm semi retired but still in a high marginal tax bracket here in Canada, lets say 45% or so. Our VAT ( actually called HST - Harmonized Sales Tax ) , was increased from 13% to 15% last week. So when you think it thru, thats really a 3% tax increase before taxes.

So, I kinda discuss it with the wife. Its really really reached the point where its not worth earning the money anymore. I think I will really ER and enjoy the free healthcare while it lasts!