Job - what to do?

[growing_older]

I've been in similar but not quite the same situations and seen others in them. In my experience there's a lot of nuance in the details that can make a huge difference. If your current company knows you want to be an employee and are keeping you contract, then they value your work (and likely experience) but are not interested in investing in you or thinking of you for future career growth. That's okay, but let's you know where you stand. Some folks do very well as permanent contact employees. Job security isn't much different from the regular employees any more. Contract work often pays better than the same job as an employee. Employees have a different point of view about the work they do: being on a project that cancels or doesn't get used can be frustrating or lead to deep resentment and feeling of being devalued. In the same situation, a contractor can feel good about building whatever the company asked for as well as could be done: what the company did with it after that has much less emotional impact. The goal is more focused and immediate.

I note you have a very flexible work arrangement. Might have something to do with you being overqualified for this work and they are delighted to have your specialized expertise on your flexible terms. Never the less, this can be a hard thing to arrange and should be worth a lot with kids.

You don't seem fond of your manager and coworker. Too bad, because working with good people can make other issues much less important and life is too short to let the turkeys get you down. You'll probably have to decide how important this is to you. For me, I'd rather work with good folks than use my specific degree or even what specific job (programmer, project mgr, etc) I do. I've been lucky to be in situations with excellent coworkers and managers a few times. Unfortunately they never lasted too long before (stupid) company decisions changed the workgroups and personnel and then the best people all left. This makes me think that good folks to work with is very valuable, but not necessarily lasting in high tech so while it's a great thing to look for or try to arrange it's not reliable enough to give up too many other advantages in search of it.

I don't have any specific advice what to do. I think the little details of your situation matter so much it's hard for anyone except you to have enough info to make choices. Usually it's easier to see what's wrong with a situation becuase the negative things leap out at you. Before you actually do anything, I'd strongly suggest you carefully think through the positives about your situation as well, such as flexible work schedules for kid issues, long history and "expert" reputation (let's you have a lot of latitude for some things), salary and benefits, work you know, location, commute or other factors.

Good luck. Whatever you decide will be on partial info at best, so while you want to consider all the factors you can, you will never know everything so maybe will just have to make a guess at some point what you value more.

 

[SecondCor521]

Everyone,

Thank you all for the replies and thanks to some for the very kind words. The former reminded me that y'all are the smartest group of people I know, and the latter really warmed my heart and encouraged me. I got something from every single reply and many of you were uncanny in how spot on your comments were.

I'll reply in more detail later, but I have tentatively decided that the "burn out" factor trumps everything else except location because of my kids and that I must begin to look around for something different and hopefully better.

I also wanted to add that after further reflection what I wrote about my coworkers being like a family didn't convey precisely what I meant. What I meant was more that I don't feel valued as an asset to the company. I may have been spoiled by my 11 year stint, but there they treated employees as valued assets of the company to be maintained and developed, not interchangeable engineering units that cost a lot of money.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone.

2Cor521

 

[Rambler]

2Cor, I think you've had plenty of great comments so far. Just one thing to add: the working world is becoming much more "contingent" year by year...more temps, more contractors, etc. Even permanent jobs are no longer really permanent, and corporations no longer value loyalty, even though many give it a lot of lip service.

I hope you are able to find something to be able to use the significant investment of time and money that an MBA represents, but I suggest not getting your hopes too high for reciprocity in the loyalty department.

FWIW

R

 

[Bestwifeever]

You have so much to offer professionally (geez, MBA with honors and departmental scholarship on top of your years of experience? There's your first talking point in your first interview) and personally (to a new family of friends who are waiting for you to find them when you're ready). Don't hide your light under a bushel.

 

[Rustward]

I also wanted to add that after further reflection what I wrote about my coworkers being like a family didn't convey precisely what I meant. What I meant was more that I don't feel valued as an asset to the company. I may have been spoiled by my 11 year stint, but there they treated employees as valued assets of the company to be maintained and developed, not interchangeable engineering units that cost a lot of money.
2Cor521

I don't really have anything unique to add that has not already been said (and you did get a lot of good replies). You really do have a lot going for you.

As far as employers go, I suppose there is a broad range of how employers treat employees relative to contractors. I contracted at a place fulltime for 2 years then took an employee position. My expectation was that I would be more valuable. My perception (my reality) is that how I was treated as a contractor vs. an employee did not change at all. I now suspect that the employer made me an employee mostly to protect himself from using a contractor like an employee, having to pay payroll taxes, etc. May be different in your environment.

 

[tryan]

I don't think you'll find it much different in another setting ... just different walls and people, same issues.

So unless you're ready for the career change (e.g. start a small bussiness), I'ld suck it up for a few more years ... save like hell to maybe bump the date up. Then get the heck out.

 

[DallasGuy]

I think that burnout is rampant in the computer industry. I've been a programmer for about 28 years now and am down to my last 4 weeks before I ER. I don't have any intention of doing a programming job ever again unless the money and/or conditions are fantastic. I spent the first 14 years as an employee and the last 14 years as a contract worker. Both have their pros and cons. As an employee I felt trapped at the end. As a contractor I sometimes felt undervalued and a little unstable job-wise. Overall though, I preferred the contract world because as an hourly employee, I either got paid or I didn't work (i.e. no overtime unless they came up with the extra money....that convinced alot of employers to keep me at 40 hours a week which has been nice). Also, no on-call as a contract worker...also very nice. But eventually the work has become boring and I have a very difficult time getting motivated. So I understand your situation. The only advice I can give you is that you must figure out for yourself what is causing your unhappiness. Is it job burnout? Is it career burnout? Is it work burnout (maybe a few months off would refresh you??) Is it company burnout? Is it boredom with your work? (would a different job in the same company be better?) I think it takes alot of soul searching to figure out exactly what is making you unhappy. I'm on my 2nd contract within a 3 year period where I'm extremely bored and non-motivated. I finally came to the conclusion it's career burnout for me. I don't think I'd be happy being a programmer at any company at this point.

Good luck trying to figure it out.

 

[kaudrey]

2Cor - sorry I am late to the party - busy few days at work. I am glad to see that you are going to start looking for another job - I think it is the job, not you! You have long enough until FIRE that you don't want to just "wait it out". The journey to get to FIRE is just as important as getting there. You don't want to go through the next 7 years feeling like you are waiting for something else (at least, I wouldn't)

Looking for another job while you have one makes it less stressful and gives you time to look around and feel things out. And keep an open mind. Apply for jobs you don't think you are qualified for, or ones that seem totally out of left field. You never know what will turn up.

After I got my CFA charter, my agency yawned. I applied for a job in another agency that I wasn't really qualified for, and the interviewer said they brought me in because of the CFA. I didn't get that job, but they did create a different job for me and I have been here for 3 years now. You never know where talking to different people will lead.

Others mentioned career counseling or life coaches. I think they may be worth looking into in your situation.

Keep us posted, and good luck!

Karen

 

[barbarus]

Funny how it seems like a lot of these "I hate my job posts" (including mine) are from people working in the computer industry.

That is curious.
Do you physicians and lawyers ever feel burned-out or find that you hate your jobs?

Maybe a transition from technology to getting a JD/LL.D would be a wise move. Then,even if you hated the w*rk, you'd be making so much money that you could stay motivated. Money (in sufficient quantity) can add it's own magic sparkle to the dullest activity. At least until you make enough to retire.

 

[Rustward]

Maybe a transition from technology to getting a JD/LL.D would be a wise move.

What is JD/LL.D?

 

[barbarus]

What is JD/LL.D?

A law degree.
Having a BS or BA (and getting a high enough score on the LSAT exam) could get our techie into law school and put him a lot higher on the food chain.

He might or might not cotton to the w*rk, but at least his pay, status and leverage would be much better.

 

[plex]

It's a JD/LLM, the LLM really isn't necessary though except for academic purposes.

Many types of law pay very poorly, actually, a large majority of starting positions for lawyers only pay in the 40-50k range. The type of law that often interests technical types who happen to also be good at reading/writing is patent law. This is actually one of the most, if not the most, lucrative types of law, with the starting pay in the 100-160k range, depending on the CoL of the area and how many hours are required. Patent law requires a ridiculous amount of time, it is also rife with burn-out, the average work week is in 60-70 hours/week range.

In the opening posters case, I would NOT advocate getting a JD, it is a six-figure investment, school costs+lost opportunity costs would be about 150-300k, the opening poster is too close to ER to make that sort of switch worthwhile, even with a large scholarship from doing well on the LSATs. It takes 3-4 years to get a JD, depending on whether you work during law school. It would then take at least 4-5 more years to recoup those costs.

While law would certainly be a change of pace, it would not pay off by the time the OP wants to ER, and while extremely interesting and intellectually challenging, there is a huge amount of pressure to get work done as fast as humanely possible in addition to very long hours, resulting in widespread burnout, though patent lawyers do tend to enjoy their work significantly more than in other types of law.

 

[barbarus]

It's a JD/LLM, the LLM really isn't necessary though except for academic purposes.

It really is LL.D plex. This was the more common form of doctor of laws degree not too long ago. Now the same eduction earns the JD at many law schools. I'm aware of the specialty-oriented masters that may follow additional study beyond either of these.

New graduates from the top schools who practice "big law" are starting at around $170,000. Some of these rascals are probably reading these very words. Maybe they could add to the discussion.

 

[plex]

Biglaw is still set at 160k for the max, though there are sometimes class bumps at some top firms for those practicing patent law, which can result in base pays of 170-185K, this is generally kept a secret though, as it can cause resentment within the firm. There are also bonuses depending on the firm, they are very dependent on how many hours over the minimum one puts in.

Looked up a quote to best explain the difference between types of law degrees, pay attention to the differences depending on the country, especially the U.S. (to sum it up, a LL.D is a honorary degree in the U.S.):

"Apart from the Juris Doctor (JD), the Legum Doctor (LL.D.) is another doctorate degree in law. In the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand, this degree is normally earned following a very insightful publication of original and important contributions to the study of law. The LL.D. in South Africa is the highest degree in law based on research and completion of a dissertation equivalent to a PH.D. However, some schools like the University of Oxford award a Doctor of Civil Law instead. In Canada, the LL.D. and Doctor of Civil Law degrees are given as a substitute of Ph.D. in law. The LL.D. may also be given as an honorary degree based on an individual’s contribution to society. In the U.S., the LL.D. is mostly given as an honorary degree. The Doctor of Jurisdical Science (S.J.D. or J.S.D.) is the degree granted for research, the same as a Ph.D. in law.

While the Juris Doctor is the professional degree needed to be able to practice law in the U.S., the SJD leads to a career as a law professor or other legal scholar. Many legal scholars who earned their degrees outside of the U.S. enroll in the doctoral program with the aim of being able to teach in the American soil. Most of the degrees they hold are considered equal only to the bachelor’s degree in the U.S. rather than a master’s or JD. Graduates of other doctorates in law, usually the so-called non-bar JD program, use their degree for personal fulfillment, consulting, authoring, speaking engagements and other endeavors that do not require the need to pass a bar examination."

Doctor (title - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia explains how the LL.D became just a honorary title in the U.S.

JD is the normal type of law degree, and by far, the most useful for non-academic purposes. An LLM is a specialty degree in the U.S., usually focusing on a particular type of law (there is a patent law LLM). SJD is a doctorate type law degree (and it is not offered at many U.S. law schools), which is what I think you were confusing the LL.D with.


Regardless, it is a moot point, the farthest the OP would need or want to go would be a JD (which is commonly called a LL.B outside the U.S.) and, it isn't advisable to even get a JD in the first place.

Whew, that took some research, I am a law student and had no clue what you were talking about.

 

[Buckeye]

I just bought "Life's a Bitch and Then You Change Careers, 9 Steps to Get Out of Your Funk and On to Your Future" by Andrea Kay. It looks interesting and includes exercises to help you figure out who you are and what you would enjoy doing instead of doing things based on of how you have been defined by others.

I've just started reading it but you might find it worthwhile in helping you determine what type of career change would be positive for you. I'm getting bored and burned-out in my current position. I want to pick the job this time instead of the job picking me.

 

[barbarus]

Nice summary plex.

Here is something I just stumbled across that may interest any of the legal eagles out there.

U.S. Legal Work Booms in India - washingtonpost.com

 

[Meadbh]

I'm not sure who started the law conversation, but it seems to me that SecondCor has plenty of qualifications and lots of options. And yes, us MDs do get burnout on a regular basis.

SecondCor: I'm concerned that you hanker for a "secure and permanent" job, because you and I both know that such jobs are a thing of the past. It's a seller's market and the best job security is to remain competitive.

As one MBA to another, I suggest you begin thinking of yourself as CEO of SecondCor, Inc. You've got the tools. Use a coach to help you develop a vision and get going on the strategic plan. Do the environmental scan, the SWOT and the financial analysis. Get a second, or third opinion on the plan - or better yet, get the opinions of the Board (this Board ), and then, most importantly, start implementing it.

This approach has worked for me.

This is worth a read: Creating You & Co. William Bridges, Addison Wesley, 1997, ISBN 0-201-41987-4.

 

[Spanky]

Maybe a transition from technology to getting a JD/LL.D would be a wise move.

Really? Law is lot more stressful than technology. 60-70 hours week is normal. Demand for getting the job on time is intense. The only motivation is the money. Law is boring and dry.

 

[rogersteciak]

Using career burnout as a stepping stone to FIRE

I've gone through career burnout several times in my life. I started out as an electrical engineer designing systems in the aerospace industry. Luckily, I had the wisdom to get my MBA at night school so that I had a parachute when that experience got old.

I landed eventually in the chip industry marketing semiconductors to electrical engineers. When that got old, I became a technical writer documenting semiconductors and electronic equipment for electrical engineers and computer programmers.

When working directly for a company became unbearable, I started doing technical writing as a contractor through a small temporary help agency (which meant I was essentially the CEO of my own virtual company, but without a lot of the hassles of actually running a business). Along the way, I figured out how to live well below my means and invest the rest.

My eventual goal is to become an angel investor. Since my circle of competence is in the high-technology field in the area of microelectronics and digital systems, that is probably where I will focus when I get there.

The point is that there are alternatives for using your career skills and experiences in new ways to create income. You just have to go find them and use them.


Loral Langemeier has written some good books on how to build wealth. Her advice is consistent with my experience -- you may hate your career, but it's what you know how to do:

1. Make a plan for becoming financially independent (i.e., LBYM and invest the rest in income-producing assets).
2. Also figure out how to do what you know how to do as a business rather than as an employee (because businesses get better tax breaks than employees do, which allows you to build wealth more quickly).

As your investment income grows, there will come a day when you will have achieved financial freedom. Then you can FIRE and never have to work again if you so choose.

 

[cvoz]

I swiched from technology (lab Manager in a chemical company) to sales 10 years ago - about your age now.

never looked back - you help your customers solve problems (utilizing all your skills and background) - have a number of projects going on at the same time- manage yourself - and deal in business.

give it a look - take some sales training clasess -

 

[GoodSense]

I just saw your post. I was in a similar situation, 8 years in the same job and feeling both undervalued and burned out. I found a new job in a different industry (project developer) about a month ago and started last Tuesday. It was a big change, from the public sector to private, and in a different field. I think it's probably one of the best things I've ever done. It's just so nice to be learning new things again. I did have to take a small paycut and lose some vacation time, but the feeling of liberty (ie. not completely stuck) is SOOO worth it.

I figure if I only like my new job for a few years, that's a few years more of joy enjoyment I wouldn't have otherwise. I would rather work a couple of years more than being bored to death at my old job.

If I were you, I would start with friends and family, since most jobs are never posted. Networking can be great (and is how I got my job).

Good luck!

 

[SecondCor521]

Update

With all the excellent comments I feel that a detailed reply is required. I do have an appointment I need to keep in about 20 minutes but will reply to as many comments as I can, starting at the top of the thread and working my way down.

First, an update. I was informed by the contract engineering company on Monday, June 2, that the client no longer required my engineering services, so I am now "betwixt and between" as one of my favorite aunts likes to say.

I was actually relieved when they told me; in retrospect the stress of staying in that job had been increasing nearly weekly as I realized more and more that I was burned out at the job I had been doing for 15 years (various forms of R&D engineering on and around laser printers) and that I was unhappy at the particular firm where I was working.

I've spent the past two weeks decompressing, spending time with my kids, soul-searching, gut-checking, and just taking a break in general. Sort of the mini-sabbatical that was alluded to on the other "Job burnout" thread going on here. I've also spent some time taking notes on and refining what is a must/high want/want in my new job.

Financially, of course, I will be fine for the foreseeable future, but I will need to generate income. I'm on the broad plateau between "living paycheck to paycheck" and FIRE.

OK, on to specific comments:

#2 - RIT - Thanks. My main concern with trying to root cause why the job dissatisfaction was to avoid stepping out of the frying pan and into the fire, so to speak. If I had determined the problem was just with the company that I was at, then switching companies would fix it. As it turns out, after introspection I've figured out that it was three things mixed together: dissatisfaction with the company I was at, extraordinary boredom/burnout with the job function I was doing, and an entitlement attitude that I still need to fix.

#3 - W2R - Too late on the looking while still employed part. My parents said the same exact thing, BTW. Obviously that's the more practical way to do it.

I think I am going to follow the strategy of looking at lots of different jobs and then simply filter out those that don't match my criteria, which includes the pay scale of course.

I am sure something suitable will come along. Employment is low where I live, and I am a capable, well-educated, articulate guy.

#4 - brewer - Good advice. I did end up getting back in touch with the career office at my MBA school and there is a lady there that I'm working with who is very helpful. On the Friday before I was laid off I took the afternoon off and visited with her and took some career inventories. They said, in summary, that I had the abilities to be an engineer and the engineer career path matched my values, but that I had no interest in being an engineer -- my interests are leaning more towards the people realm.

#5 - purron - Thanks for the comments. I do plan to proceed deliberately even now. It seems to make sense to take the time now rather than take just another job that I won't like. I do recognize your point about most every place being roughly the same, but I also think that there is a wide variety of environments and jobs available out there.

#6 - already replied to.

#7 - kronk - I tried to clarify my comments about the family surrogate thing in a later post; hopefully I made more sense there. I think you're probably right in that a consultant vs. employee doesn't really matter these days too much - in fact I was kept on as a contractor last December when the client I was working for laid off full time permanent folks, which made no sense. Ultimately I think doing one's job very well, keeping one's resume/training up to date, and networking are the only job security we have these days.

#8 - my reply to #6.

#9 - barbarus - Again, good advice. My MBA does open doors into management. I may be like those folks who get law degrees but don't become lawyers in the sense that I may choose an alternate path (entrepreneurship) that isn't the most common outcome for people with my background. Oh, and I wasn't in IT, I was in R&D.

#11 - Sarah - Thanks, you're such a sweetheart! Flexibility with the kids' schedules is on my "must" list for whatever I do next. Hopefully my next role will be something I like better rather than just the next "boat" over.

#12 - xynny - Around here the pay for being a PM is higher but the BS factor is also higher. I think I have decided that I like mentoring/teaching people but I don't really like the other parts of management that go along with the job. So engineering management is on the list but rather low for now...sort of a fall back position. (By the by, I've enjoyed reading wisebread.)

Well, I need to leave for now but will post more replies to replies later.

2Cor521

 

[SecondCor521]

More replies

#14 - citrine - Thanks...in a way I was glad to see that having a break down is survivable.

#15 - d - True. Good point.

#16 - xynny - As I think I mentioned, I was in R&D, and yes, in my experience IT was treated poorly.

#18 - LOL! - I don't think there is a connection, but perhaps there is. I was very surprised to see this pointed out. Generally I keep my romantic and professional lives separated, and they tend to ebb and flow of their own accord.

#19 - lsbcal - I won't move because my three kids are here and I have joint custody of them. As to your third bullet, I did find a free counseling service that I may talk to about life in general.

#20 - Caroline - I always love your feedback! Thanks for the vote of confidence!

#21 - BGF - Good point on variety. In retrospect I've changed jobs about every 2 years even if I didn't change employers. Good point about morons in business, hadn't thought of that. Hopefully my BS-meter is good enough for me to mentally mark those folks.

#22 - aworkingrachel - I'm in Boise, which is a large enough city that there are lots of different jobs available here.

#23 - dessert - yes, good point. I'm slowly becoming aware of this.

#24 - Spanky - Good questions, all of them. I'm currently working my way through "What Color is Your Parachute?" as I am not very good at identifying my strengths and likes nor articulating the kind of job I want.

#25 - Linney - The thing I don't think I would like about program management is that I really don't like trying to work via influence, which is what I've seen of that role at a former employer. But depending on the role it could work.

#26 - growing older - Thanks for the excellent reply. I agree with you about coworkers and bosses being both important and transitory.

#28 - Rambler - Agreed. I was spoiled working for one of my employers for 11 years. The world changed during that time as you describe.

#29, #30 - bestwifeever, Rustward - Thanks for the encouragement.

#31 - tryan - I think I am going to try the career change route. One reason is that I know enough now to know that if I take another job in my area of expertise it really will be more of the same - there is not that much difference between the different engineering places I've worked. I was already saving like mad so I can't really do much more in that department.

#32 - DallasGuy - Very astute comments. In my case, it is a combination of career burnout plus didn't like the company plus a bit of an attitude problem that they owed me a job. I'm working on fixing all three.

#33 - kaudrey - Thanks and Hi! - Yes, my career search will involve casting a wide net and probably talking to a lot of people about different opportunities. Thanks for the reminder to try for jobs that I don't officially qualify for - that is usually a weakness of mine.

#34ff - barbarus et al. - I'm not going to law school. There is no law school in Boise and I'm not moving to go to law school because my kids are located here. Also, as plex points out the investment doesn't make sense right now being as close to FIRE as I am. Finally, I would probably stick bamboo shoots in my eyeballs before I would become a patent attorney. I have a US patent to my name and have had to work with those folks before. Ick.

#40 - Buckeye - Thanks for the book suggestion. I just wandered over to the shelves (I'm at the library) and they had the one you suggested right there. I got that one plus about 11 others.

#42 - meadbh - Good advice on both job security and the notion of "2Cor521 Inc." Will do.

#44 - rogersteciak - The point I took from your post is going out and getting the job, not being so passive about it. Good point.

#45 - cvoz - Not sure if I'm cut out for sales but it's an avenue I'm considering.

#46 - GoodSense - Yes, if I look for a job I will look via friends and family.

Again, thanks to all!

2Cor521