large cash deposit and withdrawal - any concern?

[medved]

I was not able to do an electronic transfer because the recipient bank would accept an electronic transfer only from a checking account, and not a savings account - and the account from which I withdrew the funds was a savings account. (Why they have this rule, I have no idea -- but that's the rule). I could have used a cashier's check -- and in retrospect I probably should have done that -- but I was annoyed by the ten dollar fee for such a check.

The bank from which I withdrew the funds asked me for ID and asked me my occupation. I am not sure why they asked my occupation, but I had no objection to the question. Whatever they want to know (within reason) is fine with me.

They did not ask me why I am making the withdrawal. (If they had asked, I would have simply told them that I am depositing the funds at another bank which pays higher interest).

In hindsight, this was probably a dumb thing to do. Then again, I have done lots of dumb things in the past, and I am sure I will do lots of dumb things in the future. So I guess it is just part of a pattern

Since I did not get robbed, and the recipient bank had no problem accepting the cash, really my only concern at this point is whether it will increase the risk of an IRS audit. I am totally honest on my tax returns, but I am sure the process of an audit would be annoying and time consuming.

 

[audreyh1]

I was not able to do an electronic transfer because the recipient bank would accept an electronic transfer only from a checking account, and not a savings account - and the account from which I withdrew the funds was a savings account. (Why they have this rule, I have no idea -- but that's the rule). I could have used a cashier's check -- and in retrospect I probably should have done that -- but I was annoyed by the ten dollar fee for such a check.

The bank from which I withdrew the funds asked me for ID and asked me my occupation. I am not sure why they asked my occupation, but I had no objection to the question. Whatever they want to know (within reason) is fine with me.

They did not ask me why I am making the withdrawal. (If they had asked, I would have simply told them that I am depositing the funds at another bank which pays higher interest).

In hindsight, this was probably a dumb thing to do. Then again, I have done lots of dumb things in the past, and I am sure I will do lots of dumb things in the future. So I guess it is just part of a pattern

Since I did not get robbed, and the recipient bank had no problem accepting the cash, really my only concern at this point is whether it will increase the risk of an IRS audit. I am totally honest on my tax returns, but I am sure the process of an audit would be annoying and time consuming.

I can't imagine dealing with a bank with restrictions on ACH deposits.

 

[easysurfer]

I was not able to do an electronic transfer because the recipient bank would accept an electronic transfer only from a checking account, and not a savings account ...

I don't even have a savings account. My "savings" is my money market. Nice when I bought a car in cash, simply do the transfer from MM to my checking, then write the fat (well, over 10K) check to the car dealer.

 

[Bamaman]

It would have been free to chew on the branch manager of Bank A over the $10 charge.

I just wouldn't do any more large transactions anywhere.

My family has a big city luxury car dealership. They have drug dealers and Irish Travelers coming in quite often wanting to pay big cash. They later come in with a number of $9,999 bank checks to purchase automobiles--often in different peoples' names.

 

[euro]

If the banker asked you what it was for, and you said "none of your business", expect your account to be closed.

That may be a POSSIBLE, but probably not likely scenario. Perhaps if you just opened the account a couple of days ago, and this is your first transaction then well, maybe. Most of us tend to have pretty longstanding relationships with our banks and as such have a long track record. Unlikely that a bank would close such an account just because of a snippy comment to the teller.

 

[medved]

Now that I'm thinking about it more, I wonder why they asked me what my occupation is. Maybe they are required to ask that, to include it on the report?

Seems like an odd question, though. I mean, its not like anyone would respond "drug dealer" or "ponzi scheme operator" or "professional money launderer", even if that was the truth.

 

[Car-Guy]

Now that I'm thinking about it more, I wonder why they asked me what my occupation is. Maybe they are required to ask that, to include it on the report?

Banks have asked me the same question. Not sure why but that's seems to be consistent. However, Casinos don't seem to ask that question.

 

[FUEGO]

Just don't get stopped driving on the way home or you risk having that much cash in you car confiscated. I know from experienced getting grilled if I was carrying over $2000 in cash (which I wasn't) when stopped and pulled over.

If found, I doubt it would be confiscated. I'd produce the bank receipt so they know it's not drug money (or at least it's clean drug money with a paper trail lol). I would feel weird explaining the money was to play Monopoly with my kids (that might put me in the 1-percenter camp and make it more likely to have the $ confiscated!).

I've also never been pulled over (tending to generally follow traffic laws pretty closely). And even if I was pulled over for a traffic stop, this alone generally won't give a police officer the right to search my vehicle without consent.

I expect if the money was confiscated I would be able to get it returned rather quickly once I document that $20k is a very small part of my balance sheet. I could even pull up my net worth tracking app on my phone and show the officer to possibly prevent confiscation.

 

[FUEGO]

Now that I'm thinking about it more, I wonder why they asked me what my occupation is. Maybe they are required to ask that, to include it on the report?

Seems like an odd question, though. I mean, its not like anyone would respond "drug dealer" or "ponzi scheme operator" or "professional money launderer", even if that was the truth.

"Part time millionaire"?

 

[Sunset]

If found, I doubt it would be confiscated. I'd produce the bank receipt so they know it's not drug money (or at least it's clean drug money with a paper trail lol). I would feel weird explaining the money was to play Monopoly with my kids (that might put me in the 1-percenter camp and make it more likely to have the $ confiscated!).

I've also never been pulled over (tending to generally follow traffic laws pretty closely). And even if I was pulled over for a traffic stop, this alone generally won't give a police officer the right to search my vehicle without consent.

I expect if the money was confiscated I would be able to get it returned rather quickly once I document that $20k is a very small part of my balance sheet. I could even pull up my net worth tracking app on my phone and show the officer to possibly prevent confiscation.

Lots of folks have had money confiscated, it's pretty scary really and I never believed it until I started to read it at various legitimate news sites.
They confiscate it, and then you will spend weeks and weeks fighting for it's return and maybe win, although they might offer to return 80% if you sign an agreement to not sue

Aggressive police take hundreds of millions of dollars from motorists not charged with crimes | The Washington Post

"Aggressive police take hundreds of millions of dollars from motorists not charged with crimes"

 

[FUEGO]

Lots of folks have had money confiscated, it's pretty scary really and I never believed it until I started to read it at various legitimate news sites.
They confiscate it, and then you will spend weeks and weeks fighting for it's return and maybe win, although they might offer to return 80% if you sign an agreement to not sue

Aggressive police take hundreds of millions of dollars from motorists not charged with crimes | The Washington Post

"Aggressive police take hundreds of millions of dollars from motorists not charged with crimes"

I'm not too worried. Clean cut middle aged white guy with no criminal or civil record (other than being an attorney for a few suits) driving a non-pimped out minivan. I know PD internal affairs officer, city council member for my district where I would drive bank-to-home, and head city attorney.

Not to0 hard to ensure they do the right thing to avoid a nasty media black eye and/or suit (retired attorney with plenty of time to poke the city over and over and over?). Possessing $20k that you just withdrew from the bank isn't a crime (not yet!).

 

[Sunset]

I understand that attorney's might not be too bothered by roadside police collections, especially as they can always invoke client privilege as to the source of the $$$.
The rest of us don't have that power.
As the Washington post article explains for the rest of us, even non-criminals, you get your own money back in only a small percentage of the cases and it can easily take a year.

This is actually so bad, not just 1 county in 1 state that was famous for it, that Congress is talking about actually passing a law to fix the overzealous police staff stuffing their coffers.

 

[njoyingdajourney]

My understanding. After 9/11 the government fined the heck out of the banks. The banks responded with sending anything that looked slightly suspicious over to the government. So now the government is probably overwhelmed with SARs.

My understanding - When teller/bank files a SAR. 1. your name goes in a government "secret" database. 2. You cannot do a FOIA to see if you in the database. 3. There is no set "criteria" for when a bank teller does a SAR. 4. Now the government has a database of everyone that probably is doing fairly large transactions

1. Seems like they are infringing on my rights by putting me in a database and me not being able to see that I'm on it.
2. I'm not sure how much interaction there is between where the SAR goes and the IRS.

 

[papadad111]

When asked. I tell the bank it's none of their business what or why I'm accessing my money. That includes transactions from time to time for Cash over 10K.

Same with US customs . Declare the cash if over 10k. But the law does not state you have to say why you have the cash or how it was acquired.

If you are worried, Just tell them it's the Dave Ramsey envelope system. To buy a new car or some household repair.

I have on occasion reminded branch managers and bank presidents that the last I checked, dead presidents are legal tender and if it's my money the bank's job is to return it to me with interest when asked, no other questions needed. They have never refused my business.

I did close an account after a series of poor service events at a credit union once - the bank manger **** when I closed the account that had 50-grand in it - tried desperately to save me. I insisted he give me cash jn 100 dollar bills as I was so pissed off about their incompetence that I didn't think they could even get the check filled out correctly. He complied. The money was deposited the next day into a different bank

I'm comfortable with cash. Lived in other parts of the world where things like boats cars airplanes and houses are paid for in cash. I'm comfortable with it - common sense and street smarts rules..

The police confiscation of cash thing is an issue - it's in part why I exercise my 4th amendment rights. Displaying an FFL generally calms down LEO's and they give you some credit for being legitimate. That said I try to never be stopped..

I refuse to be a "patsy" when it comes to my money. My cash. Why have legal tender if you can't use it. Often times a polite decline will resolve these issues. To me that's one of our constitutional rights worth fighting and dying for.

Someday we'll be all electronic. Till then .. ...

 

[Senator]

That may be a POSSIBLE, but probably not likely scenario. Perhaps if you just opened the account a couple of days ago, and this is your first transaction then well, maybe. Most of us tend to have pretty longstanding relationships with our banks and as such have a long track record. Unlikely that a bank would close such an account just because of a snippy comment to the teller.

You are 100% incorrect. It may have been true in the 1093s, but not today. Banks have a federal requirement to "know your customer".

You are just as well to say you are a drug dealer, and need the cash to buy drugs, "as "none of your business".

When they ask for an occupation, it is to see if the cash transaction "makes sense" for your role in society. If you are deceptive, or evasive, many/most/all? reputable banks will close your account. They can be fined a LOT of money, and many banks have had multi-million dollar fines already. I go through anti-money laundering training every year.

All cash transactions are analyzed. Whether you make them at the same bank branch, or in a branch in a different state. Competing banks work together to group the transactions.

Cash transactions are perfectly legitimate, but not typical for a standard homeowner. A car dealer would have a different hurdle than a convenience store.

 

[Islandtraveler]

Warren Buffett tells a story of how an IRS official showed up to his office to find out why he had made several monthly $9,000 cash withdrawals which were made for his wife who was redecorating their home. I can understand that. He is a suspicious looking character.

 

[Symbiotic]

First, I think it's pitiful that anyone has to feel remorse about taking some cash out of a bank and putting cash in another bank account. I know people on this forum are the more conservative, careful types, so we're naturally a bit more circumspect about stuff. But still.

On the actual question, don't worry about it one bit. Banks file tons of CTRs all the time, and they all just go in some giant computer at the Treasury/FinCEN. (They used to all go physically into a paper warehouse, but they upgraded a few years ago.)

Now, a SAR is a different thing, but you'll not have one of those unless you did something really weird and you had no banking history and your teller was freaked out about it. Doesn't sound like that's the case.

I don't know why your teller told you he had to "fill out a form." Maybe he was ready for his day to end and that bank's software can't do it quickly (or at all). He's not actually supposed to discuss the details of the CTR with you in the first place! Maybe that branch doesn't see many transactions so it felt like a burden?

The IRS is allowed to access to the CTR database to identify audit targets and to pursue audits. But I seems that their strategy is pretty much just to find people with big CTRs who are doing egregious things, like not filing taxes at all.

My side hobby is cash-intensive and I generate tons of CTRs all year long. This is also not a problem, because tons of similar transactions strongly establishes precedent. (There's a separate, concerning issue about moving lots of cash constantly. Banks don't like patrons who constantly move cash, because (a) they don't have much of it anymore, (b) it's expensive in time and somewhat procedurally riskier for them, and (c) large cash transactions likely do correlate with shadier-behaving customers. Some banks are known to be aggressive in closing accounts of people who move a lot of funds around.)

Since someone mentioned it, I can't help but mention that about 20% of the time a teller or supervisor asks me, usually casually, what I'm about to do with the cash when I'm withdrawing. I find this so off-putting that I literally deadpan, "oh, I'm a drug dealer," and just keep reading my phone or staring them down or whatever. Most of the time, after a moment, they laugh and stop being so nosey.

Lastly, the questioning about occupation is a response to the standard Know Your Customer rules that all the financial entities have to adhere to now. You won't see this as policy at casinos, but every bank is now working on filling in that box on their screen. FinCEN actually issues guidance on what answers are worthy of further scrutiny; I guess there are dumb criminals out there that will be ensnared one day. Sigh.

 

[Symbiotic]

You are 100% incorrect. It may have been true in the 1093s, but not today. Banks have a federal requirement to "know your customer".

While the spirit of your post is true, sentence one is clearly incorrect. Banks of all sizes have a somewhat generic, broad-brush requirement to "know" their customers. But the nature of the way the government works in this area means there is enormous latitude granted to the businesses to establish processes and procedures that achieve the "goal." The requirements (and consequences) are more stringent for larger institutions, lest they overreach and strangle the smaller ones with overregulation.

So I don't think it is anywhere close to 100% incorrect. But, as you say, it's also not the 1930's, to say nothing of 1093!

 

[Senator]

So I don't think it is anywhere close to 100% incorrect. But, as you say, it's also not the 1930's, to say nothing of 1093!

Yes, 1930s...

When a customer says "It's none of their business", they cannot possibly know that customer and will close the account rather than take a chance. Each customer is only a small pittance of revenue, and one that does this is not worth the risk.

The megabank I work for does not do business with online gambling, porn sites, marijuana facilities, etc. It is not worth the reputational risk, even though all may be legal businesses.

 

[papadad111]

First, I think it's pitiful that anyone has to feel remorse about taking some cash out of a bank and putting cash in another bank account. I know people on this forum are the more conservative, careful types, so we're naturally a bit more circumspect about stuff. But still.

On the actual question, don't worry about it one bit. Banks file tons of CTRs all the time, and they all just go in some giant computer at the Treasury/FinCEN. (They used to all go physically into a paper warehouse, but they upgraded a few years ago.)

Now, a SAR is a different thing, but you'll not have one of those unless you did something really weird and you had no banking history and your teller was freaked out about it. Doesn't sound like that's the case.

I don't know why your teller told you he had to "fill out a form." Maybe he was ready for his day to end and that bank's software can't do it quickly (or at all). He's not actually supposed to discuss the details of the CTR with you in the first place! Maybe that branch doesn't see many transactions so it felt like a burden?

The IRS is allowed to access to the CTR database to identify audit targets and to pursue audits. But I seems that their strategy is pretty much just to find people with big CTRs who are doing egregious things, like not filing taxes at all.

My side hobby is cash-intensive and I generate tons of CTRs all year long. This is also not a problem, because tons of similar transactions strongly establishes precedent. (There's a separate, concerning issue about moving lots of cash constantly. Banks don't like patrons who constantly move cash, because (a) they don't have much of it anymore, (b) it's expensive in time and somewhat procedurally riskier for them, and (c) large cash transactions likely do correlate with shadier-behaving customers. Some banks are known to be aggressive in closing accounts of people who move a lot of funds around.)

Since someone mentioned it, I can't help but mention that about 20% of the time a teller or supervisor asks me, usually casually, what I'm about to do with the cash when I'm withdrawing. I find this so off-putting that I literally deadpan, "oh, I'm a drug dealer," and just keep reading my phone or staring them down or whatever. Most of the time, after a moment, they laugh and stop being so nosey.

Lastly, the questioning about occupation is a response to the standard Know Your Customer rules that all the financial entities have to adhere to now. You won't see this as policy at casinos, but every bank is now working on filling in that box on their screen. FinCEN actually issues guidance on what answers are worthy of further scrutiny; I guess there are dumb criminals out there that will be ensnared one day. Sigh.

My sentiment exactly. What's your side hobby. Exotic/collector Cars ? Not to be nosey. Just curious !!

 

[FUEGO]

"Officer, this is what I do with $20k cash."

 

[Sunset]

Warren Buffett tells a story of how an IRS official showed up to his office to find out why he had made several monthly $9,000 cash withdrawals which were made for his wife who was redecorating their home. I can understand that. He is a suspicious looking character.

That is the funny part, if I was going to move 20K in cash, I would fear some customer in the bank hearing the teller count out the cash would phone his buddy, and they would mug me outside somewhere.

So I'd move the money in smaller blocks maybe 5K at a time and just make 4 trips over a week or two for safety.

However, a strict interpretation of the law would suggest this is illegal since the gov't is so worried about people moving 10K or more.

 

[UpAnchor]

That is the funny part, if I was going to move 20K in cash, I would fear some customer in the bank hearing the teller count out the cash would phone his buddy, and they would mug me outside somewhere.

So I'd move the money in smaller blocks maybe 5K at a time and just make 4 trips over a week or two for safety.

Of course you then multiply your opportunities of being mugged by a factor of 4. Hmm, what to do...

 

[Sunset]

Of course you then multiply your opportunities of being mugged by a factor of 4. Hmm, what to do...

Yep, ideally I'd do it in $1,000 increments as losing 1K is a pain, losing 20K is a horror.

 

[MichaelB]

Mod note - the thread evolved into a discussion on concealed carry, guns and laws. This is one of the topics our community rules specifically requests we avoid (here), so the posts were removed.