Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-14-2021, 04:34 PM   #61
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
street's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 5,125
OP, did her premiums she paid in through the years, was those premiums recovered from
pay out for the care she used?

So, how much did she pay and what amount did she get for care?
street is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-14-2021, 04:50 PM   #62
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 16
I'm interested to see the numbers, so thanks for this thread.

When you read information online, the numbers rarely reflect cost at home vs. cost in a facility, or what type of policy you have.

I was fortunate that I bought two policies, a few years apart, 10-12 years ago. I got a Hancock policy with 5% compounded, which as of 2019 was $306/day. I made sure it included home care, as that is the most important thing for me. The broker who sold it was about to have me sign a NY Life policy, when I said, "I assume this would be valid in foreign countries, right?" Whereupon he took that policy away and brought me the Hancock. Much later I read the fine print and saw that while the Hancock does give support overseas, it's about half the amount and runs out over a few years. Used in the US, my policy is open-ended. I bought it as a 10-pay, at about $10,000/year for 10 years. It is now fully paid up.

Because home care is important, I looked at costs again a couple of years later and bought a second policy. Genworth was the only place still offering 10-pays, so I got a policy that currently covers $140/day. Open-ended, but no overseas coverage at all. I have one more payment to make on it, in about a month. (It used to be $6,000+ per year, and now is $9,000+.)

Both have 90-day delays, though the Genworth agent told me the delay does not apply to at-home care.

I was feeling pretty good about this ("I'm over-insured! Go me! I'll never have to worry about this"). Then about three years ago I reviewed my coverage and realized that both policies together would only cover about 14 hours a day in my home, leaving ten hours for me to scramble to fill as I burnt through money at a fast clip. I then went on a deep dive, looking at various hybrid vehicles, with particular attention to those that operate globally. I also learned from an expert that there are two main types of LTC policies: one is called "reimbursement" (the sort I had with Hancock and Genworth, in which you have to hire qualified (according to the company) help and have them submit hours for repayment; this can lead to all sorts of paperwork delays). There's another type of policy where, if you qualify for LTC, you're given the money and spend it however you need to. Hire whomever you like. (I believe these are referred to as "indemnity only.")

This is useful for a number of reasons, one being that as we get older it may become harder to find help that qualifies, especially if you don't live in a major city. (Too many boomers, too few qualified caregivers.) This way you can hire someone who lives down the street, if you don't need very specialized care all the time.

And there were indemnity-only hybrid policies that were good overseas, so it left options open.

I dithered for quite a while over the possibilities, too busy with my job to finalize anything. Along the way, an agent pointed out a couple of things: first, I had 5% compounding, so my care might cover more hours 20 years from now. Second, there are unofficial things people do to stretch into the hours LTC does not cover. For instance, you could offer a room in your house to someone who agrees to act as a caregiver, and they could cover the night hours when you might not need as much assistance.

So for the moment I've left it at the two policies. And when I relocate, I want a house that I can share with at least one roommate and still have a room for a caregiver.
Among_Primates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 04:59 PM   #63
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Conroe
Posts: 1
My husband I bought a policy through JC Penny's in1993 with a 5 % inflation rider. It saved our finances when my late husband had to go in a nursing home. Since
1993 the policy has been sold several times, currently Transamerica Life Insurance Co. and the premiums have increased several times to $155/month. Apparently this is too good of a policy and I have 5 lbs. of confusing papers . It's for a REHABILATION PLAN (SHIP)."Rehabilitation is a court supervised process intended to remedy the company's financial deterioration for the benefit of policyholders and creditors ....etc." From trying to understand all the papers which talk about different policies -eventually the options will be higher premiums with less benefits. In the meantime they want you to continue making your monthly payments. Does anyone know about this?
TXBev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 05:23 PM   #64
Full time employment: Posting here.
RetiredHappy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Among_Primates View Post
I'm interested to see the numbers, so thanks for this thread.

When you read information online, the numbers rarely reflect cost at home vs. cost in a facility, or what type of policy you have.

I was fortunate that I bought two policies, a few years apart, 10-12 years ago. I got a Hancock policy with 5% compounded, which as of 2019 was $306/day. I made sure it included home care, as that is the most important thing for me. The broker who sold it was about to have me sign a NY Life policy, when I said, "I assume this would be valid in foreign countries, right?" Whereupon he took that policy away and brought me the Hancock. Much later I read the fine print and saw that while the Hancock does give support overseas, it's about half the amount and runs out over a few years. Used in the US, my policy is open-ended. I bought it as a 10-pay, at about $10,000/year for 10 years. It is now fully paid up.

Because home care is important, I looked at costs again a couple of years later and bought a second policy. Genworth was the only place still offering 10-pays, so I got a policy that currently covers $140/day. Open-ended, but no overseas coverage at all. I have one more payment to make on it, in about a month. (It used to be $6,000+ per year, and now is $9,000+.)

Both have 90-day delays, though the Genworth agent told me the delay does not apply to at-home care.

I was feeling pretty good about this ("I'm over-insured! Go me! I'll never have to worry about this"). Then about three years ago I reviewed my coverage and realized that both policies together would only cover about 14 hours a day in my home, leaving ten hours for me to scramble to fill as I burnt through money at a fast clip. I then went on a deep dive, looking at various hybrid vehicles, with particular attention to those that operate globally. I also learned from an expert that there are two main types of LTC policies: one is called "reimbursement" (the sort I had with Hancock and Genworth, in which you have to hire qualified (according to the company) help and have them submit hours for repayment; this can lead to all sorts of paperwork delays). There's another type of policy where, if you qualify for LTC, you're given the money and spend it however you need to. Hire whomever you like. (I believe these are referred to as "indemnity only.")

This is useful for a number of reasons, one being that as we get older it may become harder to find help that qualifies, especially if you don't live in a major city. (Too many boomers, too few qualified caregivers.) This way you can hire someone who lives down the street, if you don't need very specialized care all the time.

And there were indemnity-only hybrid policies that were good overseas, so it left options open.

I dithered for quite a while over the possibilities, too busy with my job to finalize anything. Along the way, an agent pointed out a couple of things: first, I had 5% compounding, so my care might cover more hours 20 years from now. Second, there are unofficial things people do to stretch into the hours LTC does not cover. For instance, you could offer a room in your house to someone who agrees to act as a caregiver, and they could cover the night hours when you might not need as much assistance.

So for the moment I've left it at the two policies. And when I relocate, I want a house that I can share with at least one roommate and still have a room for a caregiver.
With your 2 policies, you are in good shape. As long as you have some room in your investments to fund the difference between 24x7 home care and what these 2 policies pay, you really don't need a 3rd policy. I wouldn't hire someone down the street as if you hire the wrong person, you end up being responsible for when they get hurt and IRS comes after you for not having paid employment taxes and workers compensation.

My Genworth policy does pay 75% benefits when approved and is not based on reimbursement if claiming / living overseas. I have no intention of living outside of the US but it is a good policy for people who contemplate retiring in another country.
RetiredHappy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 05:25 PM   #65
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
HI Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredHappy View Post
...you lose if you die without fully utilizing what you have paid into. For those who manage to use it for far more that have been paid into win big. Oh, that is also called insurance.
I win if I die without entering a care facility. In 2018 and 2020, I visited my mother in a memory care unit and spent a few days living in a high-end assisted living community with a friend.

The assisted living community was nice, but by the time you get there, you probably can't drive, don't have any freedom, and end up eating in most of the time. My friend was in early stage dementia. I felt really bad for her when they locked the place down when COVID hit, as the only thing that made it tolerable for her was interacting with other residents and playing cards. After they locked it down, she couldn't see her friends there, eat with her friends, enjoy the theater, rec room, pool, bar or gym.

My mom paid into LTC insurance until she finally realized that she couldn't afford to make the payments, after paying probably $20K into the system. She entered the memory care unit after breaking her pelvis, going to the hospital, and then going to rehab. She was there about 6 weeks, and it cost around $8K. If she had kept the LTC, she wouldn't have outlived the waiting period. While she planned to have LTC insurance, when the time to go to the facility came, with her dementia, she didn't see the need, and resisted until she ended up breaking her pelvis and had no choice. I had hired in-home care for her, but she fired those folks.
__________________
Balance in everything.
HI Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 05:34 PM   #66
Full time employment: Posting here.
RetiredHappy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by HI Bill View Post
I had hired in-home care for her, but she fired those folks.
We saw that all the time. Most of the time they didn't want the aides because they cost money. Having LTCI does help with that mindset. With dementia, some don't respond well to having other people around.
RetiredHappy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 05:41 PM   #67
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
HI Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredHappy View Post
With dementia, some don't respond well to having other people around.
Yes. She had a friend who was helping her go to doctor's appointments, with bill paying, and grocery shopping. My mom thought she was bossy and trying to control her life. My mom became hostile to people trying to help, or 'interfere' in her life. In her mind, she was fully self-sufficient. She wasn't, and was such a hazard to herself that a care worker removed the stove knobs so she wouldn't burn the house down. My mom didn't realize that without her friend's help, she would have ended up in a care facility at least a year earlier. I kept reiterating that point, but it was pointless, as she'd forget within minutes.
__________________
Balance in everything.
HI Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 05:54 PM   #68
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 797
I opted for group LTCi through our state PERS plan. Daily benefits started at $200/day for nursing home care, with simple 5% inflation. Currently, our daily benefit is at $270/day. There is a 90 day deductible. Benefits will last for around 4 years, assuming payout at the maximum. Premiums for both of us are about $300 and have not increased over the past 7 years. Our reason for getting coverage was that LTC would leave the surviving spouse destitute.
akck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 06:03 PM   #69
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 23
I will have to look up our details. As Federal employees, we bought a level premium with inflation protection - the only wrinkle is that the contact gets re- negotiated every seven years and it has been hard to find an underwriter . Since we bought our policies when we were 40- they will probably be up again many times. Each time we have been offered either same premium with a slight reduction in benefits or same benefits with an increase. If neither of us ever has to use it, I will say we won.
marion10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 06:16 PM   #70
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chicago West Burbs
Posts: 1,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by street View Post
OP, did her premiums she paid in through the years, was those premiums recovered from
pay out for the care she used?

So, how much did she pay and what amount did she get for care?
Street, sorry, I don't have those numbers and don't know how long she had been paying. I think her husband also had a LTCI policy. He did not collect as he never needed care beyond what MIL provided at that time. He lasted less than 24 hrs once he was put into hospice care.

This thread has moved a bit from my original intention. I had read a lot of threads over the years of the existence of LTCI as if it were just one entity with one set of conditions. With this recent situation with MIL, I thought I would share actual numbers as they applied to her plan, her choices and the alternate options she had. That is about all. It has now moved on to whether LTCI is was win or lose financial decision and other EOL stories. That is fine as all discussion is healthy, generally.
CRLLS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 08:20 PM   #71
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
timo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bernalillo, NM
Posts: 2,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokrken View Post
I've been thinking about LTCI lately and wanted to ask the group when the right time to buy is.

DW and I are 49 and 44, respectively. Is that too young, meaning the reduced premiums will not make up for the longer time I'd be paying? Do I need to buy before I FIRE; does employment matter?

DW and I got our LTCI before either one of us was 50. Good thing for me, as I had a major heart attack at 51. Since then, as everyone knows, the LTCI market have been in mild convulsions. We have hung on the to plans through all the adjustments, because we viewed them as insurance for things like a permanent and disabling injury from severe car crashes. There are so many terrible injuries from car crashes. So the old plans, before the cutbacks, were just fine for catastrophic insurance as we were younger. As we get older now (both in mid 60's) we hopefully don't need the extensive plans that we used to have, before the cutbacks by the companies. We plan on going with the home care options as long as we are both alive. If one of us dies, the other will be off to assisted living, if they still have that then.
__________________

"We live the lives we lead because of the thoughts we think" ...Michael O’Neill
"We can cannot compel others to do our will" ....Norman Goldman
"There never is shortage of the gullible to accept the illogical"...Anonymous
timo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 10:46 PM   #72
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 21
FYI, we have recently jumped into an LTC policy ( pure "traditional" ins, not a "hybrid" life ins combo ) with a company that allows options like:
* 180 day elimination period
* single premium/one-and-done
* 10 yr premium/done paying after 10 yrs
Wanted to let folks know that those kind of options still exist to reduce premiums and potential increases.
someday soon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 10:48 PM   #73
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 1,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by someday soon View Post
FYI, we have recently jumped into an LTC policy ( pure "traditional" ins, not a "hybrid" life ins combo ) with a company that allows options like:
* 180 day elimination period
* single premium/one-and-done
* 10 yr premium/done paying after 10 yrs
Wanted to let folks know that those kind of options still exist to reduce premiums and potential increases.
Who is the insurer with these options?
RetireeRobert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 10:52 PM   #74
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 21
National Guardian
https://www.nglic.com/SIM-Products/Long-Term-Care
someday soon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 11:06 PM   #75
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 1,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by someday soon View Post
Thanks for the link and name.
RetireeRobert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 11:07 PM   #76
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Sunset's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 12,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecfo View Post
....... But one challenge is today's RetiredHappy (and rational) and the person who needs to say Yes! to the rate increases in the distant future may very well be two different people, in effect.

I think that anyone with a LTC policy should have their loved ones/heirs involved in the annual bill paying and decisions so the policy does not get abruptly cancelled or reduced for cost saving. Genworth for example has some tools so that others can be alerted if there's a major policy change.
Really good point.
My dear FIL wanted one day to cancel his umbrella coverage as he wasn't getting any value out of the $212 yearly cost, he had it for around 15 yrs but suddenly thought it was bad. .
__________________
Fortune favors the prepared mind. ... Louis Pasteur
Sunset is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 11:57 PM   #77
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Westchester County, NY
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyking1 View Post
I hear that far more often.^
My employer's mother used hers up, and the father is doing the same now.
My sister and her late husband were able to use some of their benefits.
My mom? 8 days at home in her bed.
Dad died in my arms while grocery shopping.
But isn't that a great reason for getting a hybrid policy? At least your heirs get something back if you don't get use of the policy while you're alive.
MisterBill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2021, 11:59 PM   #78
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 1,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBill View Post
But isn't that a great reason for getting a hybrid policy? At least your heirs get something back if you don't get use of the policy while you're alive.
That is reason number 1 while I went the hybrid route. Reason number 2--never any premium increases or coverage decreases.
RetireeRobert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2021, 05:57 AM   #79
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 6,724
LTC insurance is much like any other insurance in that: If you end up using it, it was well worth the premiums and it may be a real God-send. If not, it was a waste of money.

Mom had a policy that paid for two years in a NH. When it ran out, we sold her house and liquidated what small amount of assets she had. She came out even at death and never had to go through the process of Medicade.

Perhaps on the strength of that experience, DW and I took out policies and have kept them up. Someone suggested that the LTCi companies "wait" until you are about ready to need the policy and begin raising premiums (my take on the gist of the conversation.) It is true that LTCi policies CAN have premium increases, but they are not based on the age of the holder of the policy. The increases are based on the overall results of the payouts and number of folks who drop their policies and (I think) how well the company does with the money they take in (not sure about that part.)

BUT, LTCi companies can not simply raise their premiums. They must got through governmental bodies to justify the increases in premiums. We have had one raise of premiums and it was substantial. I'm of two minds on LTCi. It's not like life insurance since we all die but not all of us end up in LTC. Given the chance to go back now (25 years) I'd probably not take out LTCi. BUT, now that I have it and DW and I both have "issues" that could eventually land us in the NH, I'm hanging on to our policies. As always, and especially on LTCi, YMMV - and I hope NONE of your policies (and mine included) EVER pay off!
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2021, 06:29 AM   #80
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
LTC insurance is much like any other insurance in that: If you end up using it, it was well worth the premiums and it may be a real God-send. If not, it was a waste of money.
I am going to respectfully disagree with you on this point. I don’t see that failing to make a claim on LTC or any insurance for that matter is a waste of money. Insurance is intended to mitigate or off-load risk, and one has to pay for that ability. Yes, it is certainly possible to pay too much too off load that risk, or that one is over insured, but that is true of pretty much any product or service. My purchase of a LTC policy was done for the purpose of preventing catastrophic financial loss….limiting the downside risk to my nest egg. I sleep better at night knowing I have that protection. Honestly, I hope my wife and I never file a claim…instead we just go quietly and quickly into the night after living full, complete, and active lives.
ProGolferWannabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A real life Roth Conversion example Looking4Ward FIRE and Money 3 09-16-2020 10:03 AM
LTC coverage for Vets and Spouse mickeyd Health and Early Retirement 19 06-20-2009 05:53 PM
roadmap to retirement in 20 years,any real life example here? zxiang43 Hi, I am... 11 01-31-2008 03:16 PM
Long-term care (LTC) and LTC insurance (Updated 2020) Nords Early Retirement FAQs 0 10-24-2007 11:02 AM
Dangerous Real Estate Example wabmester FIRE and Money 9 05-18-2004 09:32 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:08 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.