ltc insurance

There is a podcast called the Retirement and IRA Show that is run by 2 FPs from Colorado. It’s available from all the usual podcast providers. Lately, they have been talking a lot about LTC in their bi-weekly shows and there has been some good info. The only caveat is that they (or at least one of them) is quite the talker and you have to listen longer than you might like to get to the nuggets.

You can also get to the podcast at jimhelps.com.
 
As part of our retirement benefits, we purchased LTC group policy for each of us. It has simple inflation protection. We got it to protect the spouse who didn’t need LTC.
 
Don't see anyone who mentioned the "Hybrid Life Insurance/LTC" policies available. We purchased one from One America/State Life in 2016. Either or both spouses can avail themselves in just one policy of the LTC benefits if needed. And if the LTC benefits are never used (or not all used up), the policy pays death benefit to heirs (our three kids). We paid upfront a lump sum of $121000 to get a monthly LTC benefit (usable by either or both spouses) of $7000 a month for up to 33 months. If we only tapped say $4000 a month, the benefits would last longer than 33 months. If LTC never used, the policy pays out $233000 death benefit to heirs. We also added a rider that increase benefits by 3% annually. We pay $3140 a year for inflation rider, and LTC monthly benefit if needed would now be about $8300 a month. We can quit paying for the inflation rider at any time and LTC policy is still in effect at last attained benefit amount. One could also choose to pay annually for the LTC/Life policy instead of lump sum upfront. I figured for the piece of mind of knowing we could cover LTC costs for "likely average" length of time needed, and knowing if LTC never needed the money was not wasted but death benefit go to heirs, it was worth it. I figured I was basically giving the insurance company the time value of investing that $121000 for "probable" length of time before we both died---and that trade was worth it to give us LTC peace of mind as well as still giving our kids almost double the money back if LTC never used. . So, I would recommend people interested in LTC look into the "hybrid LTC/life insurance" model. Of course, since 2016, State Life has also increased "effective" prices in its models.
 
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One additional comment on hybrid LTC/Life insurance I mentioned above: Since our kids get back almost double the policy's upfront cost to us at our death, I look at it as my wife and I will have gotten LTC peace of mind for free during our lives. Not a bad deal, in my book. BTW, I was 69 and wife was 62 when we purchased, and they rated policy on an actuarial "combined" age of 64.
 
At this point, we are self insuring. Might make use of an irrevocable trust in the future, but have enough monies outside the trust to get into a non medicaid place at the start.
 
LTC

Had a close relative who retired young and was in the application process for LTC when they were paralyzed for life suddenly in an accident. Of course this disqualified them.. This LTC policy also provided a option for live at home nursing & care. This relative could have benefited greatly from that. I have a group policy for myself and spouse that runs about $4500 a year....that’s still expensive but nursing homes in my area run 72k a year or more for decent ones and I own some family land I want to pass on and not sell to fund a nursing home stay. So for me I think it’s ok. I do expect a bureaucratic hassle with the insurance company if I ever need it but it seems like everything is a bureaucratic hassle these days so I’m getting good at dealing with those.
 
We're playing the odds: the average stay is a couple of years. So, we're self insuring.
Here's a link to estimated care costs by state from Genworth: https://tinyurl.com/y39j2b67
 
There is a podcast called the Retirement and IRA Show that is run by 2 FPs from Colorado. It’s available from all the usual podcast providers. Lately, they have been talking a lot about LTC in their bi-weekly shows and there has been some good info. The only caveat is that they (or at least one of them) is quite the talker and you have to listen longer than you might like to get to the nuggets.

You can also get to the podcast at jimhelps.com.

I listen to their podcasts, and I really like them. Their recent podcasts on LTC, have made rethink the possibility of some form of LTC insurance. I had always thought of the house as a backup plan, but that will do little good if either I or the wife needs LTC first.

One important point he has made is that you should not really call it "self insuring". Many on this thread have said the are "self insuring", but instead it should be said you are planning to "self fund". I know you may think it is a matter of semantics, but i think it is a very valid point. Insurance implies risk pooling, which you are not doing when you self fund. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with self funding if you have the means, you are just not self insuring. The risk pooling of LTC would protect against the rare but catastrophic case of a very extended time in a LTC facility due to something like a major stroke.
 
No/Yes

My wife has it, i don't. The theory is I'm older than her and have more health issues so chances are I'll go before she does. She'll be left alone with no one to care for her. Unless the world goes to hell, we have enough money to keep us going for a long time.
 
Self insured. It's only me so if it happens after I'm 70, between SS and selling the house I get 3 years or so in a decent nursing home or 8 years in an assisted living apartment.

The better nursing home in my county takes you if you can give 2 years cost up front and will keep you if you end up on Medicaid. Not sure if you go to a double room at that point though.

Here's how it worked with my Uncle in Ohio: he was IMMEDIATELY placed into a "Medicaid bed" (had a roommate, curtain down the middle) because, you know, there might not be one available when he qualified for Medicaid. So, they paid the full rate from Day One, but for lesser accommodations. Just about the time he was about to qualify for Medicaid (and my poor Aunt was losing sleep over spending down to that level), they jacked the rates up to something crazy so she moved him. What a racket. He died shortly after that.

Still, it's a good middle ground for people who have enough to fund a couple of years since you get a better choice of facilities.

The calculator cited earlier was spot-on for the facility my Dad is in right now in SC. I'm planning to move near DS and DDIL when I can no longer live independently and the cost of full LTC is a bit less than what I spend in a year right now- and of course nearly all my other expenses will go to zero (car, home maintenance, travel, etc.) and I'll have sold the house, which could fund 3 years right there. (Mortgage balance right now is only $67K and it's due to be paid off when I'm 77.)
 
Very helpful comparison discussion. I guess from this we are looking at a hybrid of relying on our LTC policies, which we bought in our 30s when it was offered at a major university I worked for. DW had already had cancer once at 38 so the topic seemed real. We are now in our mid 50s and pay less than $50 each/month for a $175/day benefit with CNA. If the SHTF and we needed more, I guess we’d turn to our portfolio and home equity.
 
I have been wrestling with this question lately. DW has an LTC policy however I do not. After running through a couple of models, I have basically determined I will self fund for myself. I was able to build in enough expense to cover 3-4 years of nursing home care with some cushion left. We have the flexibility to use these funds for my care or for whatever the wife’s policy does not cover. Beyond this, if care extends multiple years, sale of the home is the backstop.

I found this article (if accurate) to be interesting and helpful in the decision.

https://eggstack.com/blog/2019-07-28-Long-Term-Care-Insurance-is-a-Waste-of-Money/
 
DH took advantage of a group policy with John Hancock at age 52 when he was still working. He's now 68 and retired. Our premiums have gone up due to inflation, but we're still only paying an annual premium of $2,352 for both of us, with lifetime maximum benefits of $425,000 each.

As someone said above, when one of us kicks, we'll drop it. We could probably self insure, but looking back at how much our premiums have been over the years, I still feel like it was a good deal for us. I have no doubt DH will be the first to need it and that will be a load off my mind when it happens.
 
Don't see anyone who mentioned the "Hybrid Life Insurance/LTC" policies available. We purchased one from One America/State Life in 2016. Either or both spouses can avail themselves in just one policy of the LTC benefits if needed. And if the LTC benefits are never used (or not all used up), the policy pays death benefit to heirs (our three kids). We paid upfront a lump sum of $121000 to get a monthly LTC benefit (usable by either or both spouses) of $7000 a month for up to 33 months. If we only tapped say $4000 a month, the benefits would last longer than 33 months. If LTC never used, the policy pays out $233000 death benefit to heirs. We also added a rider that increase benefits by 3% annually. We pay $3140 a year for inflation rider, and LTC monthly benefit if needed would now be about $8300 a month. We can quit paying for the inflation rider at any time and LTC policy is still in effect at last attained benefit amount. One could also choose to pay annually for the LTC/Life policy instead of lump sum upfront. I figured for the piece of mind of knowing we could cover LTC costs for "likely average" length of time needed, and knowing if LTC never needed the money was not wasted but death benefit go to heirs, it was worth it. I figured I was basically giving the insurance company the time value of investing that $121000 for "probable" length of time before we both died---and that trade was worth it to give us LTC peace of mind as well as still giving our kids almost double the money back if LTC never used. . So, I would recommend people interested in LTC look into the "hybrid LTC/life insurance" model. Of course, since 2016, State Life has also increased "effective" prices in its models.


Thanks for sharing your approach. I’m interested in thoughts about this option from others much smarter than me. I’ve always heard to avoid combining investment and insurance policies. That makes sense to me intuitively. But everything you state sounds pretty good, except the initial $121K payment of course. Just trying to understand some pros/cons of this approach.
 
Don't see anyone who mentioned the "Hybrid Life Insurance/LTC" policies available. We purchased one from One America/State Life in 2016. Either or both spouses can avail themselves in just one policy of the LTC benefits if needed. And if the LTC benefits are never used (or not all used up), the policy pays death benefit to heirs (our three kids). We paid upfront a lump sum of $121000 to get a monthly LTC benefit (usable by either or both spouses) of $7000 a month for up to 33 months. If we only tapped say $4000 a month, the benefits would last longer than 33 months. If LTC never used, the policy pays out $233000 death benefit to heirs. We also added a rider that increase benefits by 3% annually. We pay $3140 a year for inflation rider, and LTC monthly benefit if needed would now be about $8300 a month. We can quit paying for the inflation rider at any time and LTC policy is still in effect at last attained benefit amount. One could also choose to pay annually for the LTC/Life policy instead of lump sum upfront. I figured for the piece of mind of knowing we could cover LTC costs for "likely average" length of time needed, and knowing if LTC never needed the money was not wasted but death benefit go to heirs, it was worth it. I figured I was basically giving the insurance company the time value of investing that $121000 for "probable" length of time before we both died---and that trade was worth it to give us LTC peace of mind as well as still giving our kids almost double the money back if LTC never used. . So, I would recommend people interested in LTC look into the "hybrid LTC/life insurance" model. Of course, since 2016, State Life has also increased "effective" prices in its models.

One of the posters over on bogleheads forums who sells LTC insurance points out these hybrid policies end up costing roughly 3x the cost of a LTC policy alone...but are easier to get if you have pre-existing medical conditions that would disqualify you from a regular LTC policy.

And you have to make sure there really are no costs down the road...I had an insurance salesman try to sell me one ($10k/year for 10 years) but the underlying policy was universal life, not whole life, so under the guarantee my policy would have blown up around age 70.
 
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As to the hybrids "costing three times" what LTC alone would cost, I question the comparison, as such comparisons are often made by those who sell the LTC stand-alone policies.

I was aware of the extra underwriting costs tacked into having both a life product as well as an LTC product combined, but three big deciders that convinced me to go for the State Life hybrid product:

1) "One" policy would cover either of us and/or both of us. Very efficient cost-wise to find what we considered adequate likely needed LTC coverage for either or both of us.

2) And the clincher--If we "never" needed to use the LTC, all the premiums paid would not have been wasted, so to speak. Rather our kids would still get almost double our upfront premium back as life insurance benefit.

3) "Never" any annual premium increases! Guaranteed in the contract. Once we bought, we were locked in, whether we paid all upfront, or spread over years.

I could not find "any" stand alone LTC policies that provided the efficiency of covering "both" spouses in one policy. The costs of two policies of stand-alone LTC's never could measure up in my book to what we got in this hybrid "both spouses under one policy" solution. With the frosting, if never needed, the kids get nearly double the cost back as life insurance proceeds.

And they also offered an inflation rider at reasonable annual cost, with added benefit it could be dropped at any point if premiums became burdensome, but benefit level attained to that point are retained.

There was a lot of flexibility in "designing" our package to get what we thought as likely adequate needed coverage for the "pair" of us, inflation coverage, and ways of paying--either all upfront, part upfront, with riders on annual, or all upfront for riders and LTC on annual, or everything on annual premiums.

From time to time of course I have revisited our decision, and looked at current offerings of stand alone LTC's. I always run into the same obstacles with the stand-alone policies---probable annual unpredictable premium increases at some point. Inefficient pricing to get "both" spouses covered. And if never used, all the LTC premiums were "wasted".

I always have decided, again, we made the right choice, and have been extremely happy, and filled with peace of mind. And I know if I go like my wife did (die quickly at home happy in my own bed), our kids will get nearly double our upfront cost back as life insurance proceeds--so the hybrid was an efficient estate planning and asset transferring tool to boot. No premiums wasted.
 
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Additional comments on hybrids vs stand-alone LTC policies----When we shopped we were 69 and 62 and retired. Many who are younger and working can get in on group LTC policies at relatively young ages and get quite inexpensive monthly premiums. If one has the foresight to do this, such group policies might be the way to go.

Even so, I know UNUM used to provide group policies where I worked. And I know co-workers who bought them have, since I retired, gone through three rounds of annual rate increases on those policies. And I believe UNUM has quit writing such group policies to boot. And UNUM has been sued by our state and I believe several others for claims paying practices among other things. So, even these group policies, while they may seem cheap at the time, they still come with down the road problems---all of which are avoided by the hybrids. My three cents worth.
 
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We moved South of the Border for exactly this reason. We can hire full time nurses for a tenth of the cost in the US, stay in our home and enjoy the culture until we can’t. Not for everyone but trust me that being surrounded by caring help in your own home is priceless...
 
We moved South of the Border for exactly this reason. We can hire full time nurses for a tenth of the cost in the US, stay in our home and enjoy the culture until we can’t. Not for everyone but trust me that being surrounded by caring help in your own home is priceless...

This was part of my thought process before dropping my LTC policy, since I plan to move to a country where inexpensive home care is much more available.
 
Self insured. I've never understood buying insurance that the insurer can raise the price at will over the years. If I buy something I want a defined price and product. It seems you don't get either from some of the posts and articles I've read.
+1. The value proposition of LTC insurance has never been attractive to me so we self insure. Plan D would be to sell one of our two properties or a reverse mortgage but it's very unlikely that it would ever come to that.

That and some providers make it very difficult to collect claims... Jim Cramer had a devil of a time collecting on his parents policy as I recall.
 
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We have long term care insurance. We hedged our bets, capping the payout at $200 per day, but there is no time limit. (They don’t sell the policy anymore). Premiums are about 2k per year (2 of us), which is not difficult for us.

I figure if one of us needs it, this extra cash will allow the other spouse to remain in our home and still have a decent cash flow.

It’s like fire and car insurance for us....I don’t mind paying for something I hope not to use, but appreciate the security.
 
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That and some providers make it very difficult to collect claims... Jim Cramer had a devil of a time collecting on his parents policy as I recall.

I believe long-time contributor to this site, Nords, also had problems collecting on his father's policy. Some of the long-term members might be able to confirm this.
 
DW and I both have it, and have had it for quite a while. It is not just for old age. The policy is for any thing that would put a person in assisted care. Traffic accidents, etc. Like any insurance, we hope we don't need to use it. We don't have kids or close family, so the last one of us alive might get the most use out of their policy. or not. It's insurance, not a retirement plan.
 
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