Moolah

Aw, now you've let the cat out of the bag, 2B.

Telling people about the money won't really alter the number of people in the field. The math and science apptitude pretty well limits the number of candidates. There's something about the first Chem Eng class on heat and material balances that also limits the candidate pool. It's also not something someone can typically just decide to do after they've been in a deadend j*b for a decade or so.

Ed and I are also "process engineers" which is the more lucrative of the E&C engineering disciplines. Pipers can make more in good times but they work unbelieveable hours and get laid off in droves when the market turns. Most firms will struggle to keep a "core" group of process engineers.

In the position I got laid off from in 2002, I was an "important member of senior management" with a chemical operating company. One thing I learned after the lay off was that there isn't much of a market for over 50 management personnel. I came into E&C due to knowing someone that was a hiring manager in the business and an extremely tight engineering labor market. The industry was desperate for anyone that had enough credentials that they could convince a client to pay the bill. Now I have my "bonafides" in the industry and could change jobs for more money but I appreciate the flexibility my current employers provides.
 
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Barbarus---I do understand where you're coming from. There are some posters here who have had high-paying jobs in law, business, IT, and medicine. But there's also people like me (master's degree in occupational therapy---earning highest income of $43K before retiring last year at age 52). DH earned about the same.

The great equalizer for FIRE is the ability to live below one's means. And to happy with what one has. Consequently we never wanted or attempted to live in a big house (was happy in 1,000 sf condo until it got too rundown, had too many renters, and became a hellhole, so we did upsize to 1700), take fancy vacations, etc. We saved our money and now have much more wealth than people earning six figure salaries.

It is demoralizing when you realize that you have as much education and work as hard as people earning two to three times your salary. We talk about how high paid jobs are stressful, but it ain't always pretty or stressfree to be at the mercy of your supervisor, a manager above that, and one above that. The lack of respect shows up not just in the paycheck but in general treatment as well. So in many ways, I think us low paid workers have lots of incentive to save and invest and get out of the rat race since the reward vs. cost ratio (wear and tear on our bodies and psyches) is not skewed in favor of continuing to work.

As for why some of us are/were at the bottom of the work food chain. I guess there's many answers. At the age of 22, when choosing to go to graduate school to have better job options than I would have with just a BS in psychology, I was not financially sophisticated enough to truly understand what earning power was and what was needed to live on my own. Back then, occupational therapists in 1976 were earning about $10K. It seemed like a lot of money to me since I had never worked full-time (I also had never attempted to support myself, so I had no idea of what it would take or the buying power---or lack thereof---that $10K would buy. I remember telling my manager (of the lingerie department of a department store) what I would be earning when I completed my master's. She looked at me in disbelief and told me that she was earning considerably more than that---and with just a two year degree! But that didn't deter me. I wanted "to help people" and though occupational therapy was the way to do this. I couldn't believe that people were majoring in business---yeah, the sixties were over, but it was just the last decade and I thought my generation was serious about not just selling out, and working for The man, and making as much money as possible. So some of us naive waifs just didn't know how to choose a higher paying field---or didn't want to.

Then, once in the work world, those of us who didn't want to be managers or who weren't going to win a popularity contest did not move up or get major salary increases, so that's another reason why some of us did not achieve six figure salaries.

At one point, I made myself miserable because I had never reached that silly goal of earning at least your age in salary (hence the $43K at age 52). But I didn't succumb to total misery because I realized I had enough---and wouldn't have to work past 57 or so with the way we were saving and investing. So it really did work out for me. I'm just scared that the coming up generation of workers won't take to what may be lower salaries than they hope for and that there parents earned---and there could be a lot of very unhappy younger people around.
 
Good post Tango. Just to repeat what I wrote earlier. Don't compare yourself to others on the forum. It's like trying to make a basketball team and your competition is a group of Michael Jordans.
 
I've said numerous times .... there is no correlation between FIRE and college. College simply prepares you to work until you drop. FIRE comes from within.

That said, I made more FIRE $$ without my degree (i.e real estate) than I did with the degree (i.e. megacorp). Broke the 6 figure mark about 16 years into my 20 year "career".

To each, his own.
 
As a doctor, even in one of the lower-paid specialties, my compensation has always been good by any standards. However, in recent decades, most of my friends in law, business, finance, etc. have ended up worth more than I am.

By contrast, I deferred my income until age 30 and, coming from a modest-income family, borrowed such that my debts were not paid off til age 40 or so. Only then did I start saving seriously for retirement. Oh, yeah - kids entered college, law and grad school shortly thereafter.

God knows I'm not complaining. But if I were smarter about finances, putting away even a small amount in my 30s instead of paying off debts would have gone a long way. I'd have minimized my early 1980's 14% debts and continued living like a poor resident a few more years.

My point: even being in a high income profession, the looonngg training, big debts and deferred savings meant I had to pay serious attention to retirement in the last 15 years. The principles are exactly the same as others in all walks of life have described.

There's no magic unless you're just lucky (inheritance, .com beneficiary, big contingency victory, etc.).
 
I got some lucky breaks but definitely feel like I put myself in position to get them.

Software developer, BS in CompSci. I realized I was not too marketable, working on an operating system that was going nowhere outside of my company, proprietary programming language, proprietary technology. Even though I was doing pretty well, I had nothing anyone outside my company would want. The only was up was going to be management, and I really didn't feel I'd do well in that, or enjoy it. I didn't really want to go back to school either.

I wanted to stay in the same area due to family, and tried applying to another company for a job I felt I was qualified for. Didn't even get an interview. This confirmed that I was in trouble.

So, I took another job inside my company programming in C on Unix to learn some marketable skills. Same technology, but that was starting to open up and I gave a talk at a conference where other companies getting into it attended. I attended a couple more of those conferences to get to know more people.

One of those companies opened an office in my area, which was certainly a lucky break for me. A couple people I knew somewhat from my comapny jumped first, and I got word that Things Were Good there, so I went over the wall. They paid Silicon Valley wages and gave stock options.

I remember when I hit 100K. My boss said that the salary raise chart was going to put my close, so he lobbied for a bit extra to get to 100K, and HR approved it. I wasn't hung up on the 100K number but it was a cool gesture. The options did even better. The work has been hard and I worked some very long hours, especially the first few years with this company, so it was anything but a gravy train. Sharper people than me didn't want to take the risks of moving, and I don't know that they ever got to 100K.

My main message is not only do you have to be willing to take a new job, but you also have to put yourself in position to get a good one. That takes work to figure out what you need, and how to get there. It may require getting out of your comfort zone.
 
Sharper people than me didn't want to take the risks

Yup, it's ALL about RISK. Whether it's starting a new job, opening a pizza shop, buying real estate, investing in penny stocks ... it's all about taking RISK. Ferget college.
 
I would like to post some variations on this theme if there is interest and please keep posting your own tales.

Hmm, well barbarus, despite certain expectations I have only exceeded six figures once...and that was due to working weekends on a business I started on the side, I was really working two jobs that year. Unlike many (most?) of my peers, I have avoided the Valley, Redmond, and all the big software companies, I never wanted a horrendously competitive high stress job and a relatively crowded suburban existence. I've been fortunate in that I have found companies that have been willing to employee me at a distance as a telecommuter and let me live in the sticks, but have paid the price in salary. I have college classmates who retired comfortably in their late 30's from both Sun and Microsoft, perhaps I made a mistake and should have gone that route?
 
Another riding the gravy train of nursing here. I worked evenings while DH worked days when we had young kids to avoid day care expenses. We had kids very young. We also moved several times for jobs and learned how to cook, fix cars, and not buy junk. When kids were in college I took weekend call while working a day job to pay for their college. Those ton of fun years paid off by having two very grateful professional children who have not asked for a dime since graduation.

DH has had the opportunity to make more and move up in the company, but would have had to work 70-80 hour weeks and get calls during the night. We decided the tradeoff was not worth it.

Were we lucky? Yes to be born in the US, be able to get a state Uni education and to work as a team to LBYM.
 
Barbarus:

Associates at big New York City law firms are now starting at $140k per year, so you could try that. As you might expect, however, there are a few strings attached:

1. You must work your @ss off in high school to get good grades and build your resume so that you can get into an Ivy League college. No partying, drugs or general teenage shenanigans for you.

2. You must work your @ss off at your Ivy League college so that you will get good grades to get into a top law school. Again, not much of the party time, wild and crazy college experience for you.

3. You must work your @ass off in law school so that you are in the top of your class and on the law review, so that you can even get an interview with the top firms.

4. Now that you have been hired by Wee, Billam & Howe LLP, you will be expected to work regular 14 hour days, including probably more than half of your weekends, with the occasional all-nighter thrown in for fun. Even when you aren't physically working, you will be thinking about what you might have screwed up and worrying whether you will be fired and/or sued for malpractice.

5. Unless mom and dad paid for your education, you will have $200k or more in student loans to repay.

6. You get to live in New York, where a one bedroom apartment goes for $2500 per month or more, and everything else is similarly expensive.

7. Every day, you get to deal with people who are paid to be difficult.


Sounds like a real gravy train to me.
 
There are many ways to FIRE and short of inheriting it all none are going to be easy

I'll reach FI in six years. It will have taken my partner and I 21 years to amass the wealth. However, I think inheriting money will be much harder as it will be a painful loss.

I'm adding this as I realized I didn't answer the question.

I guess I'm on the gravy train you described as I'll hit the $100k mark in a few weeks. I never studied in H.S., partied and C'd my way through college. I was a part of the first class to graduate with a major in the new field called MIS. I had to transfer universities to enroll in this new program and it added a few years to my graduation date.

After I graduated I relocated from a small town in the Midwest to Boston. I worked my way up into a good job at a high tech company. When the company offered a relocation program I rode the gravy train to a lower cost of living area. After a year and a half I grew tired of the travel and didn't like the pre sales part of the job so I started looking for a new job just as the layoffs began. I received two job offers and volunteered for the layoff. The severence helped with the down payment on a house. I was around 33 years old by then.

I took a pay cut for the new job with the Federal Government. I got lucky as there was a major reorg 1.5 years later and I got a promotion to a GS-13. I put all the promotion money into the 401k which I had contributed to in the past. As I got raises I began funding a Roth and after tax accounts. I really got serious about saving when I realized my partner and I didn't have to work until we were 65.

We will be retiring in less than six years at age 56. We did start late in our retirement savings, so the good salaries saved our butts. Like everyone else here, we were willing to take risks and make changes to improve our quality of life and ability to save. We also have lived way below our means, especially in the last ten or so years. I must also add the small pensions which both my partner and I will received is a factor in our ER.
 
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No six-figure sponduliks here either, and I live in a very high cost-of-living part of the world. Of course, I am not FI or RE, either. But I have learned LBYM, and to keep investing costs down, and hope with luck to come out right-side-up in the end. Meanwhile I can learn from the success stories here and hope some of it will rub off.
 
I worked many years for just an average salary. Hard work and luck got me promotions that enabled me to obtain a 100k plus position. But I only earned that my last 5-6 years of employment. Being frugal most of my life was the key to FIRE.

As others have said, everyone here are not doctors and lawyers. Don't worry about comparing yourself to others.
 
Yup, it's ALL about RISK. Whether it's starting a new job, opening a pizza shop, buying real estate, investing in penny stocks ... it's all about taking RISK. Ferget college.

Never really felt the risk thing - not that there wasn't risk, it's just that I (we) felt responsible for our own success. Or failure. Highest amount a company ever paid me was $15,500/year before doing a year or so in law school, which didn't take. Wrenched on cars and made diddly, got lucky and hooked up with a gal who has a serious work ethic but made about the same. When everyone was selling we bought the shaggy sad little places we could afford, shined them up, and plugged in renters who pretty much made the payments - after a few years the rent payments more than paid expenses. Pushed all our resources into the properties and they acted like a big savings account. In a few decades the properties were pretty much all paid for and we were each nudging $100k/year AGI, not that we spend anywhere near that. If we can sell the rentals we should have a pretty comfortable retirement, if not we'll have to make do with a crowd of people giving us money every month. At almost 58 I'm not really gonna ER by much. Fortune smiled.
 
When everyone was selling we bought the shaggy sad little places we could afford

Yeah sometimes is less risky to go against the flow. Largely did the same ... paying a dime on the dollar at HUD/RTC auctions didn't seem risky at all (and it wasn't).
 
The quickest way to make money is to put your ego on the line and to take risks in your career selections. A little luck helps:

Success is achieved when a little good luck meets a lot of preparation.
 
The disconnect I usually discover is that when someone laments about not reaching goal X in their life, when questioned as to how much time they spend each day planning and working towards that goal, what resources they use, etc., the answer is typically not just little, but none. Zero.

I lamented. I examined my answers, and the answer was indeed, zero. I spent 0 time planning the specifics of my career, and 0 time learning how to invest. I promptly changed both. Sure I worked hard, and smart, and didn't spend a lot..but that was hardly a strategy. Remember, compare yourself to an olympic athlete. If they are a winner at their career, what time/effort did they spend reaching it? Expect to do the same in proportion.

*note: Working 9-5 for a paycheck, is not working towards your goal, unless your goal is getting a paycheck. In which case, every time you get paid, you meet your goal.

If you do this, you'll have specific questions rather than a general question. And no, it's not too late to start. And no, it won't take that long to catch up (it never does).

tip2: just marry rich, or mary someone who banks. Half-kidding.

-Mach
 
Hi Barbarus - I don't consider it a gravy train. I make over $100K and live in Washington DC (high cost area). I work for the federal government, and have for the last 16 years. I started as a GS-5 making $28K in 1991 and am now a GS-15. I got there through hard work and a willingness to travel and move for my company. I also have my CFA charter, which helped me to get that GS-15.

My pension, assuming I stay until about 52, will be 30% of my salary. The rest will come from savings. I LBYM and save about 30% of my salary every year.
 
I just computed that over 37 years of work I averaged - 53.8K/year - it does not include employer 401K contributions.
 
It took me years and years to hit the bigtime moneywise with a great emotional toll to pay for it, too.
My three goals were simple: To take the best care I could of 1. my child; 2. my home and 3. business.
This meant: no partying, no men/dates hardly ever, and alot of nose to the grindstone stuff when others were out having fun.
Yup, I was living the gravy train life (some call it la vida loca) in Fat City alright...how did you know?
 
I just computed that over 37 years of work I averaged - 53.8K/year - it does not include employer 401K contributions.

That doesn't mean too much unless you adjust your numbers for inflation. Earning $54k back in the 80's would have put you well above the average Joe.
 
That doesn't mean too much unless you adjust your numbers for inflation. Earning $54k back in the 80's would have put you well above the average Joe.

Earnings of $54K in current dollars puts a single person well above the average Joe.
 
Further, the general tenor seems to be that if that j*b is lost, a few weeks or possibly months will result in w*rk of comparable pay. Maybe even more.

What's the disconnect? Where did you guys get your tickets for the gravy train?

I've recently hopped on the train (engineering) and am nowhere close to the 6 figure mark, but I've never thought that the train would keep going forever. That was my initial reason for looking towards FIRE. I kept looking around and thinking, "Wow, one day, all these people around me will realize that I don't know as much as they think I know and that I'm just an overpriced wanna-be." It's very easy to see the train coming to a screeching halt, or having another tech bubble burst and seeing everything disappear overnight.

It's a race. Can you save up money fast enough before a forced departure?
 
Here's a link to compare your bread to the census stats for Caucasian geezers who have at least one y chromosome (old peckerwood dudes),
a group with with Barbarus feels some Barbarian affinity.

PINC-03--Part 228

The same site has lists of all other colors & creeds too, so everyone can do a little comparison shopping to see where they stand.

Bon Appétit !!
grin.gif
 
It's a race. Can you save up money fast enough before a forced departure?

That was always the way I saw it. I watched people get to about 55-60 lose a good job and never land another. You can work for a company for decades and find your job skills are stale or non transferable, or your health and appearance isn't up to standards. I want to be ready if that happened to me so I didn't have to be a maid in a motel or something at 60. Downsizing mid managers and others who are past their prime scared me. Now I am 59 still working but if I couldn't work I might have enough not to need to work. I might have to sell the house and move some place cheaper but at least I don't need a minimum wage job.
Anytime the last 5 years I could have lived on minimum wage if I had to.
 
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