Pay cash for home with these new mortgage rates?

The problem with housing prices has been very low interest rates and a lack of housing of all types. One source estimates the USA needs 4,000,000 more housing units today. Short of meeting that need.... who knows?
 
My mid-sized city has an additional wrinkle, which is that the enlightened voters just approved rent control of 3%/ year. We have a housing shortage but new development of apartments immediately screeched to a halt. I can’t predict all of the effects over the next several years until this can be overturned, but none of them seem good for our town’s economy or housing market. We’ve given a gift to all the adjoining towns and suburbs though.
 
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Very, very different situation this time. Usually bubbles pop when the last buyer has finished. In 2004-2007, that was subprime and ALT-A loans - folks with 580-640 credit score with little to nothing down and no skin in the game. Those folks aren't even making it to the table this time for bidding consideration. The middle buyer today is a 720 credit score with 20% down with limited ability to pay more than 20% if the appraisal comes up a bit short (which in normal times would be a very good buyer) - the lower credit score guy isn't even making the negotiating table. The typical buyer today is either 1) all cash or 2) 780+ credit score (median score the last 2 years) putting 30%+ down. Additionally, income and asset documentation is 1000% better than 2004-2007.

Here is what I'm watching to see when housing price increases may slowdown/stop/reverse

1) Is supply increasing quickly / reverting back to historical levels - NOPE - Near record low supply currently
2) Is it economical for builders to flood the market with supply to take advantage of low supply - NOPE - New build cost is significantly higher than existing stock and their input costs are rising rapidly
3) Is the quality of the buyer dropping back down to historical levels - NOPE - Median score is well above historical and a huge % of buyers are all cash
3a) Is the quality of the buyer dropping below historical like 2004-2007? See 3 comment
4) Have Rent prices stopped rising (rising rents make next best alternative - buying - more attractive and makes it more likely for institutional investors to buy) - NOPE - rents are going up 15-20% and still climbing
5) Has household formation started to retreat (ie people moving back in with family or friends) - NOPE - household formation is strong + record levels of folks coming across the border = a lot of new demand for lodging
6) Has the AIRBNB/VRBO trend reversed (taking stock out of traveling and back into residential)- NOPE - Its as strong as its ever been!

Until at least 1 of these 6 turn from NOPE to YES I see no slowdown in price increases nationally. Until 3 of these 6 turn from NOPE to YES, I see zero risk of outright declines in pricing and unless 5 of these 6 turn to YES I see limited risk of a significant decline in values from the current levels.
Plus 1

Magus makes a lot of sense. I just finished a 7 day house hunting trip with my son. He is purchasing and I am the guarantor. Ive bought and sold many houses thru the years but this recent experience was a new one for me. Made 6 offers (all cash) all over asking price and all were turned down. On the last day I found the perfect house that was going on the MLS the next day. I contacted the seller and offered the over asking/all cash routine just to get it off the market. Thankfully they said yes the nite before it hit the market. Being unable to delete the MLS listing in time the owners got 8 offers by noon. So, yes this is a crazy time and I would not be too surprised if the market cools down. But the points Magus raises are real indicators. In the end we paid $178 per foot in this very nice area. There is no way to build at this price today but most builders were quoting cost north of $200 ft. Now 2 years ago I sold a house in L.A. for $1000 a foot and I had 18 offers. So, maybe this market stays hot until inventory levels rise (in my opinion a few years out) or building cost drop (not likely anytime soon). Rising rates will run a few folks off but a 10 year adjustable is still a bargain. BTY, my son was renting a house ($3ooo per month) and they just raised the rent to $3500 (and that looked below market). OP, I wish you well.
 
I read an article this week about buying strategies in this hot housing market. Sadly, I don't recall where I read it.

Basically, they compared recent successful strategies to get sellers to accept.

They said currently a cash deal is 377% (and the MOST) effective. Other strategies, such as waiving an inspection and escalation clauses were about 30% effective.

Here in SWFL, where about 70-80% of purchases are for cash (mostly well-off retirees looking for 2nd homes), I know several people who succeeded in closing on the house they wanted to buy within the past 6 months, by offering cash along with a $5,000 escalation clause.

YMMV

omni
 
If I were buying in this market with a 10-15 year horizon, I would definitely consider a mortgage as an inflation hedge.

If inflation cools you can pay it off or refinance.

Having said that you might want to sell BND and move into individual treasury securities in any event
 
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Another reason to buy is there is still plenty of demand from people who are not looking for a loan. They have a lot of equities that they made a ton of dough on the last 5 years.
 
The last crash was fueled by lending dough to anyone breathing. That's not happening anymore.

every crash/slowdown is different...S&L's, war, stagflation/9-11/high interest rates. I just covered 40 years of housing issues. This time it's different!
 
every crash/slowdown is different...S&L's, war, stagflation/9-11/high interest rates. I just covered 40 years of housing issues. This time it's different!

Stagflation was great for housing - housing prices doubled from 1975 to 1985. 9-11 didn’t do anything to housing (dotcom bust and recession did a very small amount). S&L was pretty minor for the country as a whole. Also, Before 2008-2010, housing even when it declined was like 1-2% - the only two times we’ve had big drops in housing prices were the Great Depression and 2008-2010.

See the long term chart here - you can’ barely even tell any drops except 2008-2010
https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS

Housing prices rises are very sticky except the two times (Great depression and 2004-2011) we had a lot of foreclosures
 
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TO your question, six one way, half dozen another. If you can afford the $950k house and cash is king, sell the bonds and make a cash offer. You can always get a mortgage later.

As for when to buy, I keep it simple: buy a house when you need one. Same philosophy I use for investing: invest when you have money, withdraw when you need money. Reduces stress a lot.
 
Intensely interesting thread for me...we're four months from starting a house search for a second home.

The all-cash vs. mortgage vs. timing thing is a lively discussion in our home.

Lots of great and well informed perspectives in this thread.

I have no clue what will happen, but to me it feels like a foot race between rates pulling enough buyers out of the market to relieve bidding pressure and inflation expectations. If people expect inflation they move into the market to get ahead of the inflation they expect -- which is probably driving some of the demand now.

The flip side is that there may well be a lot of home owners who suddenly decide to sell hoping to cash in on the market while its toppy.

DW and I have started watching specific homes in our target area. Not to buy them but to see how fast they move at the prices asked. There are a couple that are well priced but seem to be lingering longer than I would have thought...

In terms of our own actions this autumn, who knows ... but over time I've developed a view that the world will do whatever it does, our job is to live in it.

We will own this house for 30 years. Probably means that if we find the right one, we pull the trigger and adjust our bid/financing strategy to the situation at the moment.

That said ... c'mon housing crash!! :LOL:
 
Lumber prices are still elevated by my estimation. 2x4x8 is still $5 each (in the middle of my range observed). Cabinet plywood is also still $70-80/sheet at the cabinet supply warehouse. Labor is a big wild card too.

I'm thinking 50/50 is optimistic on new build prices reducing.

I'd be looking for big buyers (hedge funds and the like) selling. Zillow has already started from what I've read.
 
Stagflation was great for housing - housing prices doubled from 1975 to 1985. 9-11 didn’t do anything to housing (dotcom bust and recession did a very small amount). S&L was pretty minor for the country as a whole. Also, Before 2008-2010, housing even when it declined was like 1-2% - the only two times we’ve had big drops in housing prices were the Great Depression and 2008-2010.

See the long term chart here - you can’ barely even tell any drops except 2008-2010
https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS

Housing prices rises are very sticky except the two times (Great depression and 2004-2011) we had a lot of foreclosures

yeah, it hinges on will the next recession be run-of-the-mill (one adult earner in the household loses their job) or like the 2008 "Great Recession" (both adult earners in the household lose their jobs)
 
I would also not want to be one who gambles on waiting, rents for a year, and then the same houses are the same, or 100k+ more. - both of those outcomes, I think are far more likely than prices coming down.

that's been happening in my town the last 2-3 years and those that were "waiting for the right one" are now looking in cheaper towns.
 
Plus 1

Magus makes a lot of sense. I just finished a 7 day house hunting trip with my son. He is purchasing and I am the guarantor. Ive bought and sold many houses thru the years but this recent experience was a new one for me. Made 6 offers (all cash) all over asking price and all were turned down. On the last day I found the perfect house that was going on the MLS the next day. I contacted the seller and offered the over asking/all cash routine just to get it off the market. Thankfully they said yes the nite before it hit the market. Being unable to delete the MLS listing in time the owners got 8 offers by noon. So, yes this is a crazy time and I would not be too surprised if the market cools down. But the points Magus raises are real indicators. In the end we paid $178 per foot in this very nice area. There is no way to build at this price today but most builders were quoting cost north of $200 ft. Now 2 years ago I sold a house in L.A. for $1000 a foot and I had 18 offers. So, maybe this market stays hot until inventory levels rise (in my opinion a few years out) or building cost drop (not likely anytime soon). Rising rates will run a few folks off but a 10 year adjustable is still a bargain. BTY, my son was renting a house ($3ooo per month) and they just raised the rent to $3500 (and that looked below market). OP, I wish you well.

Had this experience with my daughter in LA last month - crazy! Where's your son located?
 
Stagflation was great for housing - housing prices doubled from 1975 to 1985. 9-11 didn’t do anything to housing (dotcom bust and recession did a very small amount). S&L was pretty minor for the country as a whole. Also, Before 2008-2010, housing even when it declined was like 1-2% - the only two times we’ve had big drops in housing prices were the Great Depression and 2008-2010.

See the long term chart here - you can’ barely even tell any drops except 2008-2010
https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS

Housing prices rises are very sticky except the two times (Great depression and 2004-2011) we had a lot of foreclosures

I come from the construction side of housing. I was a trade contractor for 30+ years. All of those events impacted the new & remodel side pretty heavily. The local HBA had different builders talk about their careers at lunches over a year or so. None of them crowed about how smart they were or anything. They all listed those events as a very hard time. Going out of business time. If you look at charts & zoom out it all looks so easy. Down in the trenches it's a different story. Of course new construction is probably not even half the inventory market so I may be scarred by events.

All I know is I'm happy in my paid off home. Not looking. Well, I did see a Redfin pop up nearby...it was smaller & the location was on a collector street. It was priced at the top of what I thought my house might sell for. So I'm RICH!!! LOL
 
Someone Paid Cash for this House - "a House with a Stranger living in the basement for life, and the new owner cannot talk to this basement stranger. And no, the stranger is not a renter."

Home buyers are desperate. The House price is $800,000 but there are offer on this house are up to $850K-$860K for cash buyers only, but there's a catch! There are Strangers living under the basement (as in people living in the basement), and the Buyer must take them in as part of the home sale and not bother them when they buy the house. These strangers are not renters, and the buyers are not allowed to meet or see them. The house toilet is leaking, the dishwasher is damaged, the deck is not up to code, and more ..

https://www.yahoo.com/news/virginia-home-listed-800-000-174713724.html
 
Stagflation was great for housing - housing prices doubled from 1975 to 1985. 9-11 didn’t do anything to housing (dotcom bust and recession did a very small amount). S&L was pretty minor for the country as a whole. Also, Before 2008-2010, housing even when it declined was like 1-2% - the only two times we’ve had big drops in housing prices were the Great Depression and 2008-2010.

See the long term chart here - you can’ barely even tell any drops except 2008-2010
https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS

Housing prices rises are very sticky except the two times (Great depression and 2004-2011) we had a lot of foreclosures

Rhetorical question- how many real estate cycles have you lived through? Where were you living when that was happening?

To take just one example of an adverse market while showing my age-the S&L "crisis" was only minor if you lived somewhere other than CA/FL/AZ/TX/New England, but there was fallout to some degree in many other places. I concede it wasn't "national" like the 2008-10 bust, but for the people in those markets it was painful. Should have seen the discounts to book/invested $$ when I helped liquidate failed institutions in the early 90's. In addition to the homeowners stuck, unable to sell at any price in those markets at that time. As late as the mid-90's owners in many areas of SoCal were selling at a discount from what they paid 5-6 years earlier. Another factor in SoCal and NE was the decline in defense spending after the USSR collapsed. More than one thing can happen at once.

One can believe it won't happen, or to me, or it won't be meaningful, but I've seen all those first-hand.

Another rhetorical question-Have you gamed out what could go wrong with your forecast? What is the impact if one or more of the "nope" turn to "yes"?

You're betting your money, not mine. I've seen too much go too wrong to play at this point. Just hoping the market hasn't completely collapsed and there are still buyers when it's time for me to sell in a few years. Good luck, hope it works out for you as confidently predict.
 
I don't know about using your bonds for paying for the house. I'm not saying bonds are worth holding in this market, but I don't know why someone who could easily qualify for a 5% mortgage when inflation is 8.5% wouldn't borrow instead. It seems like free money. Cash may be king, but the highest offer is still the most compelling argument.

You could take the bond money and invest in something more inflation-correlated and be ahead of the game. If things change, you'll always be able to sell the bonds/investments to pay off the loan balance.
 
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Rhetorical question- how many real estate cycles have you lived through? Where were you living when that was happening?

To take just one example of an adverse market while showing my age-the S&L "crisis" was only minor if you lived somewhere other than CA/FL/AZ/TX/New England, but there was fallout to some degree in many other places. I concede it wasn't "national" like the 2008-10 bust, but for the people in those markets it was painful. Should have seen the discounts to book/invested $$ when I helped liquidate failed institutions in the early 90's. In addition to the homeowners stuck, unable to sell at any price in those markets at that time. As late as the mid-90's owners in many areas of SoCal were selling at a discount from what they paid 5-6 years earlier. Another factor in SoCal and NE was the decline in defense spending after the USSR collapsed. More than one thing can happen at once.

One can believe it won't happen, or to me, or it won't be meaningful, but I've seen all those first-hand.

Another rhetorical question-Have you gamed out what could go wrong with your forecast? What is the impact if one or more of the "nope" turn to "yes"?

You're betting your money, not mine. I've seen too much go too wrong to play at this point. Just hoping the market hasn't completely collapsed and there are still buyers when it's time for me to sell in a few years. Good luck, hope it works out for you as confidently predict.

I'm 40 and lost my first $20k I saved (and then some) to a townhome I bought in 2005 that I sold in 2009. And the S&L crisis was fairly minor to housing even in the areas you mentioned. Yes a 5% drop in price stinks, but not a big deal unless you just bought and had to sell immediately, which given the average age of living in one place is 13 years, is not common.

As I've already said, I don't want prices to keep rising. My main focus on real estate is cash yields. Rents are insanely sticky so if housing prices tank and rents are stable, I will back up the truck and live a wonderful early retirement. So what will I do if prices drop? The answer is BUY-BUY-BUY

Second, I've thought about this and done more analysis than probably 50 typical Americans combined. Nothing is indicating prices will drop.

I think the better question for risk is would you rather buy now and perhaps see a 5% drop in prices in the next two years than stay as a renter or the possibility we see both rents and home prices both go up 25% over the next two years? Keep in mind the only time we've seen housing prices drop 5%+ since 1900 is twice, both largely caused by foreclosures. But given we have the best underwriting class of buyers in US history the last few years and there are 5 million more jobs available than people looking for jobs, that seems highly unlikely in the current situation. Second, do you think prices will be lower or higher in 10 years than today? How about rent? The answer is both are likely to be much higher. Just like with stocks - trying to time the market is extremely difficult.

Another question - were you giving people the same advice a year ago? If so, you did substantial damage to anyone you gave advice to with rents and housing both up nearly 20% nationally in the last year and mortgage rates 1.5-2% higher.

One of the key things for investments and things like this is to look at it without emotion and look at the situation factually. Except for the fact that it costs more, every other factor is bullish for housing. Most folks get really emotional about housing and indeed act like a 2-3% drop in prices are the end of the world (still way less volatile than stocks and bonds!)

I don't know about using your bonds for paying for the house. I'm not saying bonds are worth holding in this market, but I don't know why someone who could easily qualify for a 5% mortgage when inflation is 8.5% wouldn't borrow instead. It seems like free money. Cash may be king, but the highest offer is still the most compelling argument.

Because the bond is a fixed coupon and inflation is irrelevant. A mortgage is effectively a negative bond (to you, a positive bond to the noteholder), so trading a 2.5% yield on a bond for a 5% yield on a mortgage is a good trade. And while inflation is obviously very high right now, what sources of investments do you have right now that will confidently deliver over 5% over the next year with no risk (just i-bonds) or 10% with moderate risk? Now you could make the case to both get rid of the bonds and take on a mortgage as well, but this is basically an intermediate step with a guaranteed increased effective return to your net worth.
 
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that's been happening in my town the last 2-3 years and those that were "waiting for the right one" are now looking in cheaper towns.

Yup - the folks that keep telling people a (big) decline in RRE is coming have actually been doing a real disservice to renters and they seem to be doing it proudly. You've cost them ~25% on the purchase price the last 18 months plus another ~20% in affordability on the mortgage rate, lost them a year in paying down principal all while rent prices have gone up 20%. It's the main reason I make posts on threads like this as they seem to be far more vocal (both online and in person) than the housing may keep going up folks.
 
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