"Pssst!! Wellesley"

That's the beauty of it - the image is only limited by your imagination. (Psssst. I think she's 28 and blond...)

:2funny: I always pictured her as have fairly short, straight, richly brunette hair with piercing, sea-green eyes and wearing jeans and a bluegreen plaid shawl (for some reason). Age? Maybe 38.

A sailor's widow with a third story window overlooking the sea, near the coast of Norway. She walks to her mailbox with two perfectly behaved, silent, blond toddlers in tow, with huge sea-green eyes as well. They wait and watch as she opens the mailbox, and pulls out the big, fat, white envelope containing her dividend check.
 
Hmmm - like the myth of the dingy teenage Blond posting from Missoula -

the mystery is fun.

heh heh heh - my lips are sealed. ;)
 
There is ONE rather special thing about it.

"Okay Gramma, lets talk about this mutual fund we think you should invest in. It invests in nice blue chip companies, all of which you've heard of, that pay good dividends, and lots of good high quality bonds. There are a whole bunch of fund managers from several companies who decide which stocks and bonds to buy and when to sell them. The company charges only a tiny amount to do the management vs most funds. Its been around for almost 40 years and has returned more than 10% a year. In the last ten years its returned more than 6% a year while the stock market has gone nowhere. Recently its paid a dividend in the 4-5% range and we'll arrange to just have that put into your checking account automatically. You spend it. Thats it."

CFB has exactly right. In the days before all of the fancy asset allocation scheme, and complicated retirement calculation, a 50/50 mix of Wellelsy and Wellington was considered the ultimate no brainer retirement portfolio.

IIRC, I've actually seen a study that such combination allowed a 4%+ inflation withdrawal over its entire long history, with modest volatility. Even today I think such a portfolio is fine for somebody retiring at normal age, and 100% Wellelsy is fine for Grandma in her 70s or 80s.

Wellelsy won't make you rich but for 40 years (and almost 80 for its older cousin Wellington) it has kept retired from become poor. That is pretty special.
 
I've had Wellington for 20 years but on days like this I love my SP 500 .

True, enough but I bet you loved your Wellington the last few months.
I sure wish I had some!
 
There is ONE rather special thing about it.

"Okay Gramma, lets talk about this mutual fund we think you should invest in. It invests in nice blue chip companies, all of which you've heard of, that pay good dividends, and lots of good high quality bonds. There are a whole bunch of fund managers from several companies who decide which stocks and bonds to buy and when to sell them. The company charges only a tiny amount to do the management vs most funds. Its been around for almost 40 years and has returned more than 10% a year. In the last ten years its returned more than 6% a year while the stock market has gone nowhere. Recently its paid a dividend in the 4-5% range and we'll arrange to just have that put into your checking account automatically. You spend it. Thats it."

or

"Okay Gramma, we're thinking about putting you into a 65% mix of the intermediate bond index fund and 35% of the large capitalization value stock index fund. These indexes are managed by nobody. They're very inexpensive and very efficient. Once a year we'll move some money from one to the other to keep it at 35/65. If I die in a car wreck, here's what you'll need to do..."

Good point CFB. Wellesley [and for that matter Wellington or any balanced fund], is much simpler. That's why my mom uses one of Vanguard's TR funds. Whenever I talk to her and my dad about rebalancing, they call it "re-what-ing?" Though I think you should be able to handle obtion B with all your new finance knowledge.:cool:

The fact that Wellesley only has roughly 50 stocks still scares me though.

btw - Wellesley is only managed by two peeps from Wellington Management not the multi-subadvisor method like Windsor II.
 
With all this talk of Wellesley I'm almost reaching for my check book. But then what would I have to be analytical about? I have a fatal attraction to running my own ship. Also I kind of like an AA of 55/45, oh well. I do think Wellesley and Wellington are very good choices.

P.S. Not sure I'd trust CFB with my grandmother ;).
 
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Eh, I think your gramma is safe. Your wifes sister is another story.

Alec, whats the current state of affairs on diversification? The traditional line was that around 20 stocks could provide perfectly adequate diversification but I think I then saw something that said you could get it with 7 or 8.

Honestly, I sort of like that they're putting their money into their 50 best ideas rather than 200 or 300, the latter just to spread the risk further. Theres gotta be a threshold at which point you're taking on less return/more risk in exchange for a modest/non-existent level of diversification.

As to my ability to handle rebalancing, you betcha. But I think I'll let someone else do it for the couple of basis points difference between the index method and the wellesley approach. "Pssst wellesley" is also a very good answer to folks who drop by the board to ask what to do with the hunk of money they just inherited or the grammas and grampas who want a cd-like return, some maintenance of purchasing power, and no sudden moves or loud noises.
 
my 2 florins worth

or the grammas and grampas who want a cd-like return, some maintenance of purchasing power, and no sudden moves or loud noises.

That's me (Although not a grandpa yet). Thanks to this board I got to change my AA to pssst Wellesley to 30 - 35% in early May. So far, so good.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
I don't know why people still buy that 20-30 stock diversification myth. Eric Haas has a couple of papers on the subject, including How many stocks do you need to be diversified.

- Alec

It's 42 the answer to the universe and/or how many stocks provided you toss in a schoss of hormones as it were.

:rolleyes: :D I always Google up '15 Stock Diversification Myth' by Bernstein assume I'll beat the 6 to 1 odds against me in my quest(lust, greed) for enhanced TWD(terminal wealth dispersion).

Of course in 40 plus years The Saint's haven't made the Superbowl - excitement here and there but no Superbowl. Like stocks with dividends - always bought tickets from the box office not scalpers - got some nice T shirts once in a while.

The Norwegian widow always checks top ten stocks held by Wellesley, Wellington and Dodge&Cox when she is in a buying mood. Of recent years also BRK.

heh heh heh - a little tongue in cheek - but I don't beat index over maybe ten yr periods but dividends like Saint's T shirts and decent seats are almost as good as real money. :cool:
 
I don't know why people still buy that 20-30 stock diversification myth. Eric Haas has a couple of papers on the subject, including How many stocks do you need to be diversified.

I just skimmed it, but arent they focused on primarily diversification risk and drift? I'm not sure I've seen a paper that combined diversification risk, volatility risk and returns against average as a function of number of stocks.

I do know that good concentration can make you rich, but you take more diversification and volatility risk as a handcuff to that, and your choices are a lot more important. Good diversification can keep you rich longer, but you may have to give up some upside.

Given the number of stocks isnt horribly low (like one of those 10 or 20 stock funds) and the % of equities in the fund is pretty low as well, is it as much of a problem?

What about bond diversification?
 
Of course in 40 plus years The Saint's haven't made the Superbowl - excitement here and there but no Superbowl.

Yeah, but it hasn't been all bad. Remember the opening kick off of their very first game in the NFL? I was 13 years old. BTW, the year I got my first set of golf clubs.:)

From Wikipedia:
"That first season started with a 94 yard opening kickoff return for a touchdown by John Gilliam."
 
I noted that one of the papers, is from my former finance professor at Business school.

He concludes that you (or a fund) need 120 stocks to be justify the additional risk you are taking on for individual stocks. I note that his papers are as dull as lectures. :) One of the other papers study concentrated portfolios of 20-30 stocks and found they performed 10% better than diversified portfolios but then went on to suggest that should be better diversified.

Finally, while it maybe different at Tier 1 business school, at the two business schools where I knew a fair number of the professors none of them were FIREd, except for those with lucrative consulting businesses!
 
The central problem arises every generation when they tear up the data and touch 'the hormone button.'

Ben Graham's Postscript chapter in the many editions of The Intelligent Investor.

Warren Buffett's paraphrase - a few good stocks can make a lifetime of investing or Charlie Munger's - one stock pension fund.

? John Greaney's selection of individual stocks for those that remember when this forum's early days.

Do we not know or think we heard of someone who rode to victory on one great stock. Two from the old rocket plant spring to mind - JNJ, and Home Depot.

There is good rational data - and then hope springs eternal.

Geaux Saints! :D

heh heh heh - Target 2015 for retirement and a few good stocks cause the Norwegian widow wants to be a Parrothead. :rolleyes: :eek:.
 
I just skimmed it, but arent they focused on primarily diversification risk and drift? I'm not sure I've seen a paper that combined diversification risk, volatility risk and returns against average as a function of number of stocks.

Finance educators and professionals like to talk about 2 types of risk: market risk [which cannot be diversified], and firm/industry risk [which can be diversified by adding more firms/industries]. Also, individual firm/industry risk is not compensated, or not consistently compensated, with higher returns. So the papers are basically looking for a way to measure the second, diversifiable risk. To quote:

The table indicates that a single security selected at random would have an average tracking error in its monthly return of 5.49% from the valueweighted index and 9.23% from the equal-weighted index. The remaining rows demonstrate the familiar decline in diversifiable risk as portfolio size is increased.

Most importantly, Table 1 indicates that even a portfolio of 100 stocks will deviate from its target index by an average of 1.13% per month for the equalweighted approach and 0.60% per month for the value-weighted approach.

Doesn’t seem like much? A monthly average deviation of 1.13% would correspond to an annualized deviation of approximately 3.9%, and a monthly average deviation of 0.60% would correspond to an annualized deviation of approximately 2.1%. Thus, even a portfolio consisting of as many as 100 stocks deviates substantially from the overall market average. Translation: Investors with portfolios containing 100 stocks are bearing substantial diversifiable risk which, on average, is not rewarded with higher return.
I do know that good concentration can make you rich, but you take more diversification and volatility risk as a handcuff to that, and your choices are a lot more important. Good diversification can keep you rich longer, but you may have to give up some upside.
Again, you're not being adequately compensated for taking on firm specific [i.e. non-systematic] risks b/c those risks can be easily diversified away by just owning more stocks of other firms. It's been a while since my last finance class, but perhaps saluki or brewer can give a quick explanation.

I can see holding a smaller number of stocks when transaction costs are high [like in the past], but with transaction costs pretty low nowadays, I think the added benefits from more diversification outway any increased costs.

Given the number of stocks isnt horribly low (like one of those 10 or 20 stock funds) and the % of equities in the fund is pretty low as well, is it as much of a problem?
The good news is that the stocks in Wellesley are not randomly chosen, they're spread out across every industry that other value/dividend funds use, one stock doesn't make up more than about 5% of the stock holdings, and it has low turnover. Kind of like an index fund with a smaller sampling of high dividend stocks.

What about bond diversification?
I'm not aware of any papers/articles on the optimal number of bonds for issuer diversification, especially in the realm of the corporate bonds in which Wellesley mainly invests. However, with close to 300 investment grade bonds, I'd be more than comfortable with that. It's not the 700-800 bonds that Vanguard's ST or IT investment grade funds hold, but probably pretty good issuer diversification.
 
Pssst, we can't use Wellesley in taxable, at least not while both of us are working. Upon retirement, that may change, in addition to being able to convert some tax-exempt muni bond funds to taxable bond funds.
 
Good info Alec! See how much simpler my life was before I found all you guys and all these studies! ;)

Pssst, we can't use Wellesley in taxable, at least not while both of us are working. Upon retirement, that may change, in addition to being able to convert some tax-exempt muni bond funds to taxable bond funds.

Yeah, wellesley isnt that great of a fund to hold in taxable while you're still working.

When I was a single guy er'd 7 years ago with zero debt to service, the combined ~3.7% dividend from the half wellesley and half wellington didnt make for a large tax footprint. In fact, I shamelessly qualified for low income electric and telephone rates for a couple of years and paid no income taxes at all for three.

Today that 50/50 split would produce a 4.2% dividend with roughly an extra 3% per year capital appreciation annualized over the last 5 years, which is close to to inflation.

Volatility has been pretty good too with the funds only down 5% and 7% ytd even after the minibear.

So good income with no complications, low cost, low volatility, more or less sticks with inflation. Whats not to like? ;)
 
:2funny: I always pictured her as have fairly short, straight, richly brunette hair with piercing, sea-green eyes and wearing jeans and a bluegreen plaid shawl (for some reason). Age? Maybe 38.

Really ? I kinda thought her hair was blond (seems to be the majority opinion
here) and straight (her hair , that is) and she's really, well, kinda HOT ! Sorta
like your avatar ...
 
Really ? I kinda thought her hair was blond (seems to be the majority opinion
here) and straight (her hair , that is) and she's really, well, kinda HOT ! Sorta
like your avatar ...

(Posts about the woman in my avatar and links to photos of her moved to the "Pin-ups!" thread in Other Topics, where they are more on topic than here.)
 
True, that. But if you rely on it for current retirement income and you are down in the 15% federal tax bracket or lower, then it works (he says, trying to steer it back on-topic...)

So true (and thanks). I will probably get clobbered on my taxes this year, since I have a big chunk of Wellesley but won't retire until next year.

One might wonder, "Why?" In my case, I am trying to get my portfolio into its ER configuration in advance. Wellesley dividends will just get plowed back in along with some of my salary, since I still invest a lot of what I earn.
 
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