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Old 01-20-2018, 05:43 PM   #41
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Letís say you have 1 million in a tax deferred account and withdrawal the recommended 4%. That would be $40,000 a year. Taxes on that $40,000 would be very small after you subtract $24,000 for the married standard deduction. So you would only be taxed on $16,000 at 10%.

Why would you rather be taxed now and put the money in a Roth when you are in the 22% or higher tax bracket? Why are people saying the Roth is so much better? What am I missing?
You definitely have the right idea. It's all about choosing paying tax now versus paying tax later, and figuring how to get the better rate.

You just need to be aware (see some examples in thread) that there are a whole bunch of things that make it more complicated, but the basic idea is correct.

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My spouse and I have been maxing our tax deferred accounts and not maxing our Roth accounts. It seems that a lot of main stream financial gurus seem to be recommending to get your match on tax deferred and next max out Roth before maxing the tax deferred. To me it seems better to max out tax deferred assuming fees are reasonable before maxing our Roth.
I agree that this advice is common. I've seen it a lot. It is "cookie-cutter" advice, and these so-called "gurus" are doing a disservice by giving it. Actually, getting any employer match is almost certainly the right choice, but what to do next depends on many things, and for a lot of people, going to Roth is not the best choice. It all depends on a bunch of stuff.
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Old 01-20-2018, 06:37 PM   #42
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As pb4uski said, all things being equal its exactly the same.

Its all a game
1. how much big is your tax deductions (itemization) now vs later (kids, college, mortgage)?
2. how much extra income do you have (current job/bonus/stock options vs. SS and RMDs)?
3. will you retire early and have years you can convert to ROTH at little or no tax?
4. whats your finger wag at what tax brackets will be when you retire.. same, more, less?

In my working years I was always in the 33% plus category, so the likelihood of falling back into the 25% category was very high for me so other than backdoor IRAs just no point until I hit FIRE and now in 15% tax bracket...everything seems like a deal.
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Old 01-20-2018, 07:29 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rollergrrl View Post
Letís say you have 1 million in a tax deferred account and withdrawal the recommended 4%. That would be $40,000 a year. Taxes on that $40,000 would be very small after you subtract $24,000 for the married standard deduction. So you would only be taxed on $16,000 at 10%.

Why would you rather be taxed now and put the money in a Roth when you are in the 22% or higher tax bracket? Why are people saying the Roth is so much better? What am I missing?

Do not count on the low tax brackets of today being there tomorrow. The low bracket could be well over 50% at some point.
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Old 01-20-2018, 07:36 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by rollergrrl View Post
Letís say you have 1 million in a tax deferred account and withdrawal the recommended 4%. That would be $40,000 a year. Taxes on that $40,000 would be very small after you subtract $24,000 for the married standard deduction. So you would only be taxed on $16,000 at 10%.

Why would you rather be taxed now and put the money in a Roth when you are in the 22% or higher tax bracket? Why are people saying the Roth is so much better? What am I missing?
Median household income in this country is still in the $5x,xxx/year. Right there in the 15% tax bracket, but likely with a lot more deductions/credits than that same couple would have in retirement (when they no longer get the child tax credits or mortgage deduction etc etc). For people making a "median" income, it's quite conceivable that their tax rate in retirement (especially if they retire at a median retirement age with SS etc) will be at or above their tax rate during the most of their higher earning working years.

That's one reason that many people "should" choose a Roth over traditional (all other things equal).
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Old 01-21-2018, 05:33 AM   #45
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Another reason Roth IRA's make sense if one wants to leave money to heirs.
Both Inherited Trad. and Roth IRA's require RMD's by Dec. 31 the year following the original account owner's death using the IRS single life expectancy table.

Roth IRA distributions to heirs will be tax free. Trad. IRA distributions will be taxed at the recipient's current tax rate which can be quite high assuming the person is still working.

Also, the Govt. tried to do away with the "stretch IRA" format allowing a beneficiary to take the distributions from an inherited IRA over their lifetime.
If this option no longer is available, a beneficiary would then be forced to take the distributions over 5 years or as a lump sum.
Now imagine a beneficiary inherits a Trad. IRA valued at $2M and must liquidate the entire amount over 5 years. One heck of a tax bite!
Whereas the entire amount of the ROTH IRA would not be taxed.
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Old 01-21-2018, 06:18 AM   #46
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Another reason Roth IRA's make sense if one wants to leave money to heirs.
Both Inherited Trad. and Roth IRA's require RMD's by Dec. 31 the year following the original account owner's death using the IRS single life expectancy table.

Roth IRA distributions to heirs will be tax free. Trad. IRA distributions will be taxed at the recipient's current tax rate which can be quite high assuming the person is still working.

Also, the Govt. tried to do away with the "stretch IRA" format allowing a beneficiary to take the distributions from an inherited IRA over their lifetime.
If this option no longer is available, a beneficiary would then be forced to take the distributions over 5 years or as a lump sum.
Now imagine a beneficiary inherits a Trad. IRA valued at $2M and must liquidate the entire amount over 5 years. One heck of a tax bite!
Whereas the entire amount of the ROTH IRA would not be taxed.

You don't have to pull everything out of an inherited IRA over 5 years. There is a calculator to figure out how much you have to pull out each year.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans...-beneficiaries

Another cool use of a ROTH IRA: A way to leave money to heirs is to start gifting early, avoiding a 5 year lookback. When your kids start working, they aren't always making much money and they are in a low tax bracket. Help them open a ROTH, then gift them the max amount they can put in it. It helps them build their own retirement and learn about investing, while they are on a low tax bracket, and while they're making too little to put much in investments. This only works if your kids aren't spendthrifts, drug addicts, etc.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by MrLoco View Post
Another reason Roth IRA's make sense if one wants to leave money to heirs.
Both Inherited Trad. and Roth IRA's require RMD's by Dec. 31 the year following the original account owner's death using the IRS single life expectancy table.

Roth IRA distributions to heirs will be tax free. Trad. IRA distributions will be taxed at the recipient's current tax rate which can be quite high assuming the person is still working.

Also, the Govt. tried to do away with the "stretch IRA" format allowing a beneficiary to take the distributions from an inherited IRA over their lifetime.
If this option no longer is available, a beneficiary would then be forced to take the distributions over 5 years or as a lump sum.
Now imagine a beneficiary inherits a Trad. IRA valued at $2M and must liquidate the entire amount over 5 years. One heck of a tax bite!
Whereas the entire amount of the ROTH IRA would not be taxed.
Regular stock brokerage accounts are also inherited tax free due to the step up in basis upon death of the owner.
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:31 PM   #48
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So the Roth vs tIRA is simple: it depends on alternatives such as matched 401k, tax rate now, and tax rate when you withdraw (if you ever do).

Hard to know future tax rates or tax position as a young person. And single folks get into higher brackets pretty fast. So it is not clear that folks early in their careers should fund a Roth over tIRA. Again, it depends.

Roth conversions as retiree or near retiree are easier to get right, since tax brackets become clearer.

Advantage of a tIRA: it's possible to convert to a Roth. But they do not give you your tax back and let you convert Roth to tIRA.

Calculate well my friends!
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:19 PM   #49
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Some of us fund our roths with distributions from our companies, and these avoid payroll taxes.
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Old 01-22-2018, 09:43 PM   #50
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My brain is twisting in the wind thinking about Roth IRA vs 529 accounts. At a certain level I wished I had increased my conversions to the IRAs with the intent of using them like a 529- but then when WA had the program where we could buy credit hours now for the future that was a good deal. Ah well, what is done is done. I can still take $ out of our Roth to help with their college expenses when the time comes.
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Old 01-23-2018, 06:14 AM   #51
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[QUOTE=EastWest Gal;2000689]You don't have to pull everything out of an inherited IRA over 5 years. There is a calculator to figure out how much you have to pull out each year.

Ummmm....Yes that is what I said. I was giving an example IF Congress did away with the "stretch IRA" provision for inherited IRA's. In Sept. 2016, the Senate Committee of Finance voted 26-0 to do away with the stretch option which would have left only the 5 year rule OR the lump sum option. However, thankfully, this change never became law.
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:02 AM   #52
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Excellent discussion.

I agree "As pb4uski said, all things being equal its exactly the same."

I, for one, plan to continue Roth contributions and conversions, from now until 2027 (when I turn 70 and start SS and RMDs) even though I am firmly in the 22% marginal bracket. I will do so because of the following possibilities (probabilities?) in the next 30 years:

1) Federal income tax rates will increase
2) There will be SS means testing based on income (like Medicare testing)
3) I or my spouse will die leaving the survivor to pay significantly higher single status income taxes

I am happy with our tIRA balances decreasing while our Roth IRA balances increase.
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:24 AM   #53
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Thanks. This topic is very important to me as I'm evaluating possible conversions into the 22% bracket where I don't expect much, if any, benefit from tax rate differentials.

Conceptually, I get it. I've seen people describe Roth conversions as a kind of "transfer" from the taxable account into the Roth. In your example, the $10K tIRA is really only worth $7.5K after tax. So by moving all $10K into the Roth and paying tax from the taxable account, in effect, you have transferred $2.5K from your taxable account into the Roth, where it will live a happy, tax-free life from that point on.

The benefit is equal to the tax that would have eventually been paid on the taxable account were it not "transferred" to the Roth. I set up a simple spreadsheet that also shows the benefit is quite small for conversions up to the top of the 12% bracket and for short periods between conversion and RMD, but then increases to a meaningful amount as you convert into higher brackets with longer periods.

The more difficult problem is calculating the real-world tax drag from the taxable account. If I continue managing income and limiting conversions to the top of the 12% bracket over the next 13-14 years, then I owe nothing on QDs and LTCGs until 70 when RMDs and SS start. But my plan is to nearly exhaust the taxable account by then (the result of deferring SS and tax-deferred withdrawals). So I'm struggling to find the benefit if I never actually pay tax on the taxable account.

What's more, if I convert into the 22% bracket, I immediately pay the 27% incremental rate on QDs and LTCGs. So the net cost on conversion is higher than 22%. And I potentially deplete the taxable account even earlier.
Precisely!

We are at the beginning of the 10-12 yrs of low income before 70.5 RMDs, living from small pensions plus taxable account W/D with non-taxed LTCGs. I doubt we will use all of our taxable accounts before RMDs kick in. But, I know for sure that we’re saving 15% (actually more on anything over that bracket) tax on LTCGs by filling up the 15/12% tax bracket with LTCGs instead of doing Roth conversions.

So, it seems to me that in our situation (which I’d expect is very common), future post-70.5 taxes would have to be at least 15% higher than current taxes for us to even consider Roth conversions instead of ZERO LTCGs for the next 10 yrs. Just for comparison, let’s say the ‘blended’ rate is 18%; then, our post 70.5 tax rate has to be 33% or higher for Roth conversions to make sense...IF tax rates remain the same. And, the LTCG savings is guaranteed, while we don’t know what taxes will be in 10 yrs.

What am I missing here?
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:33 AM   #54
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....The benefit is equal to the tax that would have eventually been paid on the taxable account were it not "transferred" to the Roth. I set up a simple spreadsheet that also shows the benefit is quite small for conversions up to the top of the 12% bracket and for short periods between conversion and RMD, but then increases to a meaningful amount as you convert into higher brackets with longer periods.

The more difficult problem is calculating the real-world tax drag from the taxable account. If I continue managing income and limiting conversions to the top of the 12% bracket over the next 13-14 years, then I owe nothing on QDs and LTCGs until 70 when RMDs and SS start. But my plan is to nearly exhaust the taxable account by then (the result of deferring SS and tax-deferred withdrawals). So I'm struggling to find the benefit if I never actually pay tax on the taxable account.

What's more, if I convert into the 22% bracket, I immediately pay the 27% incremental rate on QDs and LTCGs. So the net cost on conversion is higher than 22%. And I potentially deplete the taxable account even earlier.
No! The benefit is the difference between the tax currently paid on the conversion and the tax that would be paid if taken later once SS and RMDs start.

In my case, I currently pay about 8% on my conversion... some is sheltered by deductions and exemptions, some is at 10% and the remainder is at 15%.... there are also some qualified dividends and LTCG on top of that ordinary income that is 0% since I convert to the top of the 15% tax bracket.

So in 2017 I converted ~$30k and saved $4-5k [$30k*(22% or 25%-8%)].

If I didn't do any conversions, our taxes would be $0... which would be a good "feel good" but a poor decision in the long run since when the money that comes out at 8% today comes out later it will be taxes at 22%/25% or more.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:06 PM   #55
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No! The benefit is the difference between the tax currently paid on the conversion and the tax that would be paid if taken later once SS and RMDs start...
Perhaps you should re-read the context of the discussion. We were discussing an additional benefit unrelated to tax rate differences.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:05 PM   #56
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Ok, I see now... but IMO that is a fairly inconsequential second order impact.is
For example, let's say that the taxable account earns 6% and that the tax is 20%. $2.5k accreted for 10 years at an after-tax rate of 4.8% is $3,995, the same $2.5k at 6% is $4,477 so the benefit is $482 in 10 years.
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Old 01-23-2018, 03:48 PM   #57
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Ok, I see now... but IMO that is a fairly inconsequential second order impact.is
For example, let's say that the taxable account earns 6% and that the tax is 20%. $2.5k accreted for 10 years at an after-tax rate of 4.8% is $3,995, the same $2.5k at 6% is $4,477 so the benefit is $482 in 10 years.
You just calculated one portion of the benefit which occurs PRIOR to 70. Now let's say you need some cash. The $4,477 is tax free. The $3,995 is only $3,196 after tax. The net spendable difference at 70 is $1,281 on the original $2,500. For a 15 year time-frame, it goes to $1,951. The benefit also gets bigger as you convert into higher brackets because you are "transferring" larger amounts from taxable to Roth.

Also, it may be a second order impact in your situation. But the discussion was about equal rates at conversion and RMD. So in that context, it is the only benefit. I'm evaluating conversions into the 22% bracket where I expect little or no rate-related benefit.

All that said, I'm still struggling with the concept because the real-world tax consequences in my taxable account are not like the simple examples. I had assumed no benefit prior to 70 (0% on QDs and LTCGs). And at 70, I expect the taxable account to be nearly gone. As Animorph suggested in post #13, I think this could be a significant impact if you are already paying tax on a very large taxable account, and you're converting into the 22% and 24% brackets, and you have a long time period from conversion to RMD.
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Old 01-23-2018, 07:17 PM   #58
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I still say the Roth is superior because of the flexibility. If I would like to withdraw a million dollars at once from my account it would certainly be beneficial to have it in a Roth instead of a traditional IRA!
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:42 PM   #59
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You just calculated one portion of the benefit which occurs PRIOR to 70. Now let's say you need some cash. The $4,477 is tax free. The $3,995 is only $3,196 after tax. The net spendable difference at 70 is $1,281 on the original $2,500. For a 15 year time-frame, it goes to $1,951. The benefit also gets bigger as you convert into higher brackets because you are "transferring" larger amounts from taxable to Roth.

Also, it may be a second order impact in your situation. But the discussion was about equal rates at conversion and RMD. So in that context, it is the only benefit. I'm evaluating conversions into the 22% bracket where I expect little or no rate-related benefit.

All that said, I'm still struggling with the concept because the real-world tax consequences in my taxable account are not like the simple examples. I had assumed no benefit prior to 70 (0% on QDs and LTCGs). And at 70, I expect the taxable account to be nearly gone. As Animorph suggested in post #13, I think this could be a significant impact if you are already paying tax on a very large taxable account, and you're converting into the 22% and 24% brackets, and you have a long time period from conversion to RMD.
Your first part isn't right... the $3,995 is after-tax and is totally available since it is in a taxable account and the taxes in taxable account income have already been paid... the other part of $4,477 was being used only to calculate the second order impact of taxes in the taxable account.
================================================== ======
The example you used was $10k of conversion with 25% tax rate or $2.5k in tax.

Let's say that you start out with $2.5k in taxable funds and $10k in tax-deferred.

Scenario 1: you convert, use the taxable fund to pay the $2.5k in taxes and end up with $0 taxable and $10k in the Roth. After 10 years at 6%, the Roth is worth $17.9k

Scenario 2: you don't convert. The $10k of tax deferred grows at 6% to $17.9k. The $2.5k of taxable grows at 4.5% after tax to $3.9k. Your withdraw the $17.9k and pay $4.5 in tax and end the day with $17.3k ($17.9k - $4.5k + $3.9k).

The difference is $0.6k. That difference is also the difference between $2.5k grown at 6% (no-tax) of $4.5 and $2.5k grown at 4.5% (after-tax) of $3.9k and is the value of avoiding taxes on the taxable account for 10 years because it was invested in the Roth.

Essentially, even if the tax rate is the same the Roth wins because it avoids taxes on income earned on money in the taxable account... by using taxable funds to ay the taxes it is like reinvesting the money in the Roth and that money no longer is subject to taxes.

Note: in this last example I change the tax rate on the taxbale account to 25% to be consistent with the 25% used in the prior example.
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Old 01-24-2018, 08:24 AM   #60
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...........................
The difference is $0.6k. That difference is also the difference between $2.5k grown at 6% (no-tax) of $4.5 and $2.5k grown at 4.5% (after-tax) of $3.9k and is the value of avoiding taxes on the taxable account for 10 years because it was invested in the Roth.

................................................
nice intuitive insight above.........................I wonder if the difference might be somewhat smaller.......third order effect. If growth rate is 6%, 2% might be dividends taxed currently and 4% might be unrealized CG. The 2% taxed at 15% is 0.3% so wouldn't the compounding be at 5.7%. Of course, then you have to deal w/ the CG at the end and the basis increase from reinvestment.
I think you brought that up some time ago.
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