Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-26-2020, 03:35 PM   #61
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Brunswick
Posts: 95
WEP and GPO are discriminatory. My wife has 17 years of SS credit. She also has a 15-year permanent partial disability public pension from the fire department where she worked and got injured on the job.

Her SS will be significantly reduced because of the disability public pension. I worked for two companies and have a pension and 401(k) from both based on what I worked for and what I contributed. Why are public employees treated differently? If you earned it you should be paid it.

Ray
NXR7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 06-26-2020, 04:59 PM   #62
Recycles dryer sheets
2retireearly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic23 View Post
This has to be one of the most unjust laws on the books. Person never works a day and they get a monthly payment equal to one half of their spouses SS. Teacher works her entire life, and get and is not entitled to the same SS. It makes no since to me.
It makes sense to me. the person getting the Public Pension, has never paid a dime into SS. So why should they get SS? SS is a 'pension' based on the money you pay in. And therefore your net pay is lower than someone not paying into SS. Now for the actuarial math of SS: The spouse of someone who paid into SS is getting an amount, based on an Annuity Factor of joint with survivorship which causes a smaller payout than a single person's annuity factor would calculate. And, the spouse gets half of this. When spouse dies,the living person, continues to get this smaller payout, than he would have gotten if single. So, if person A is single, he will get a higher SS than a person B, who is married. SS is just like a pension..which is just like a SPIA. So if my Pension pays me $100 as a single person, with no survivorship. Then a person who is married gets $85 with survivorship, so spouse gets $42. Then when spouse dies, this married person, still only gets $85. He never gets $100, like I do. The annuity factors are different if it is a single, or joint with survivorship. Its all math. And being fair. Don't have SS pay people who never had anything removed from their checks to pay for it! Please..
2retireearly is offline   Reply With Quote
Special interests always benefit
Old 06-26-2020, 05:01 PM   #63
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Crossville
Posts: 281
Special interests always benefit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic23 View Post
This has to be one of the most unjust laws on the books. Person never works a day and they get a monthly payment equal to one half of their spouses SS. Teacher works her entire life, and get and is not entitled to the same SS. It makes no since to me.
If you trace history you will find some Congressperson or persons gained votes by making changes such as these to SS. Nothing is ever done at the Federal level because it is "the right thing to do". Everything is about pandering for votes.
ychuck46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 05:01 PM   #64
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 424
There is a book called "The Hero's Penalty" by Devin Carroll that addresses WEP. If that person has 20 years of substantial income where they contributes to SS, the WEP penalty is reduced - and goes away completely after 30 years.
imnontrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 05:10 PM   #65
Recycles dryer sheets
2retireearly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by imnontrad View Post
There is a book called "The Hero's Penalty" by Devin Carroll that addresses WEP. If that person has 20 years of substantial income where they contributes to SS, the WEP penalty is reduced - and goes away completely after 30 years.
which actuarially is correct. All of us, have our SS based on the top 30 years of years you paid into SS. So of course, if you get a govt pension AND in addition you paid 30 years into SS , of course you get your SS! I think people are looking for some nefarious 'scheme'. It is just math..actuarial annuity factors. And the fact if you pay into something you get a stream of income. If you don't...you don't.
2retireearly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 05:20 PM   #66
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2retireearly View Post
All of us, have our SS based on the top 30 years of years you paid into SS.
Actually, it is the top 35 years - and each year until you reach 60 is indexed for inflation. So an income of 20K 10 years ago may have more "weight" than an income of 40K this year.

Devin has a FB group called "Social Security intelligence" and we answer not only WEP questions but other questions about SS.
imnontrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 05:29 PM   #67
Recycles dryer sheets
2retireearly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by imnontrad View Post
Actually, it is the top 35 years - and each year until you reach 60 is indexed for inflation. So an income of 20K 10 years ago may have more "weight" than an income of 40K this year.

Devin has a FB group called "Social Security intelligence" and we answer not only WEP questions but other questions about SS.
True, I knew it was 35, but I didn't want to get into why their saying '30 years' was a pretty good deal! Thanks for making me honest!!
2retireearly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 06:25 PM   #68
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2retireearly View Post
True, I knew it was 35, but I didn't want to get into why their saying '30 years' was a pretty good deal!
The WEP penalty ends at the 30 year point. The "top 35"is used for SS calculation.
So if someone starts working at 22, works at a job that does not contribute to SS for 20 years, but has a side job with "substantial income" where they contribute to SS for 15 of those years, and then goes to work full time contributing to SS for 20 years, at age 62, they could be eligible for that non-ss pension without any WEP penalty from SS plus the SS amount equal to the 35 top years of the SS income.
imnontrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 08:58 PM   #69
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Brunswick
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2retireearly View Post
It makes sense to me. the person getting the Public Pension, has never paid a dime into SS. So why should they get SS?
That's not even close to reality for many people because not everyone starts out in public service. My wife has 17 years of credit in SS and only 15 in public service due to a disability (she was a firefighter/paramedic and sustained on-the-job injuries).

Yet her meager SS is still getting cut significantly.

Ray
NXR7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 09:32 PM   #70
Recycles dryer sheets
Niuatoputapu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 194
DW has worked 20 years paying into SS (only 9 of those years deemed "substantial" for the WEP calculation) and 16 years paying into California teacher pension system. We hope she will collect about $500/mo SS after WEP adjustment and $2500/mo from her pension. We consider the total of the two and say "Great, it's more than she would receive from SS with the same work history paying 100% into SS" .

It is not as good as the pension a CA teacher receives for 30 or 35 years of service, nor as good as someone who earned a corporate pension plus their SS, but we have no complaint about WEP causing her to collect less SS than her account suggests or being ineligible for 50% of my SS benefit, because $3000/mo is more than either.
__________________
ER'd 6/5/2015 at age 58. DW retired 6/18/2021 with small pension and SS. Planned WR before my SS (2022-2026) is 4-5%, then we will start my SS and a lower WR at age 70 (2027)
Niuatoputapu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 10:02 PM   #71
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Sunset's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 13,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by NXR7 View Post
WEP and GPO are discriminatory. My wife has 17 years of SS credit. She also has a 15-year permanent partial disability public pension from the fire department where she worked and got injured on the job.

Her SS will be significantly reduced because of the disability public pension. I worked for two companies and have a pension and 401(k) from both based on what I worked for and what I contributed. Why are public employees treated differently? If you earned it you should be paid it.

Ray
But surely you are happy that the person who worked 17 years for SS and earned the same as your wife, and then sat on their butt drinking beer will get MORE SS than your wife.
__________________
Fortune favors the prepared mind. ... Louis Pasteur
Sunset is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 10:04 PM   #72
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Way up North
Posts: 463
Quote:
Originally Posted by NXR7 View Post
WEP and GPO are discriminatory. My wife has 17 years of SS credit. She also has a 15-year permanent partial disability public pension from the fire department where she worked and got injured on the job.

Her SS will be significantly reduced because of the disability public pension. I worked for two companies and have a pension and 401(k) from both based on what I worked for and what I contributed. Why are public employees treated differently? If you earned it you should be paid it.

Ray
SS itself is discriminatory. The bend points and the 35 year cap are very discriminatory, by design. WEP and GPO are just consequences of the payout formulas. People under WEP and GPO are treated mathematically no worse than they would be, had they worked their career under FICA (which those of us in the private sector have no choice in). In many cases people under WEP and GPO get a better deal than a similarly positioned private sector worker.
bada bing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2020, 02:31 AM   #73
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2retireearly View Post
It makes sense to me. the person getting the Public Pension, has never paid a dime into SS. So why should they get SS? SS is a 'pension' based on the money you pay in. And therefore your net pay is lower than someone not paying into SS. Now for the actuarial math of SS: The spouse of someone who paid into SS is getting an amount, based on an Annuity Factor of joint with survivorship which causes a smaller payout than a single person's annuity factor would calculate. And, the spouse gets half of this. When spouse dies,the living person, continues to get this smaller payout, than he would have gotten if single. So, if person A is single, he will get a higher SS than a person B, who is married. SS is just like a pension..which is just like a SPIA. So if my Pension pays me $100 as a single person, with no survivorship. Then a person who is married gets $85 with survivorship, so spouse gets $42. Then when spouse dies, this married person, still only gets $85. He never gets $100, like I do. The annuity factors are different if it is a single, or joint with survivorship. Its all math. And being fair. Don't have SS pay people who never had anything removed from their checks to pay for it! Please..
This is not totally accurate. First, not all people who receive public pensions have not paid into SS. In New York City, teachers pay into their pension system and SS. In California, those In CALPERS, pay into their public pension and SS.

Secondly, there are people like myself, who have worked in the private sector before and during my teaching career in public schools. I have paid into SS and am eligible to receive payments but they will be greatly reduced. I’m fortunate because have taught and been an administrator in the California system for over 30 years and will have a substantial pension that will by far exceed the highest amount that SS provides. However, it does not feel good when you see that money taken from your check and you won’t see the full benefit from it. In addition, my wife’s quite a few year’s younger than me, and we have a young daughter. If I should pass, fortunately she’ll receive the pension benefits but it would be helpful for her to get the full spousal support. If I’m paying for it, I should be able to receive full payment back from it.
Carlos2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2020, 06:03 AM   #74
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
dixonge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ajijic
Posts: 1,501
I'm rather unsure how this will affect us. Both have government pensions, but both paid into SS *except* for my very last two years of work. Not sure if that will cause GPO to kick in or not...
dixonge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 09:19 AM   #75
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: clearwater
Posts: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixonge View Post
I'm rather unsure how this will affect us. Both have government pensions, but both paid into SS *except* for my very last two years of work. Not sure if that will cause GPO to kick in or not...



No affect if you have paid into social security for 30 years. If you receive a pension from work not covered by social security that is, otherwise it does not apply to you.
rothlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 09:49 AM   #76
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 12,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by bada bing View Post
In many cases people under WEP and GPO get a better deal than a similarly positioned private sector worker.
Can you give an example of one of these many cases?
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 09:52 AM   #77
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 12,385
dixonge asked:

Quote:
I'm rather unsure how this will affect us. Both have government pensions, but both paid into SS *except* for my very last two years of work. Not sure if that will cause GPO to kick in or not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rothlev View Post
No affect if you have paid into social security for 30 years. If you receive a pension from work not covered by social security that is, otherwise it does not apply to you.

Are you sure that applies to GPO? I thought the 30 years of creditable contributions to SS only applied to WEP.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 12:44 PM   #78
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: clearwater
Posts: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
dixonge asked:







Are you sure that applies to GPO? I thought the 30 years of creditable contributions to SS only applied to WEP.

Yes, you are correct however -


It sounds like they both paid into social security as do 60% of teachers who also get a pension. If neither of them receive a pension relating to work in which they did not pay into social security then those offsets do not apply. I for example receive a small florida teachers pension and full social security. As florida does pay into social security. Thus , those offsets do not apply to me.
rothlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 01:00 PM   #79
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: clearwater
Posts: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
Can you give an example of one of these many cases?

I think the idea is that you do receive social security ( albeit at a much lower rate, thus 2 streams of income , not one ) So, if you do put a full civil service career in or full teacher career in and receive a pension much higher than what you would have got from social security, which is often the case, you are ahead. ie ) a teacher who taught 30 years and put in 10 years under social security also.



However you come out very poorly if you have two partial careers as your pension is low and your social security is docked by GPO. In this situation the GPO is not fair.
rothlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 01:15 PM   #80
Recycles dryer sheets
samm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
..... In Illinois, there have been a number of teacher-driven attempts to get teachers onto SS. Distrust of the extremely mismanaged state pension system is a primary concern but the fact that SS is a "good deal" because there is employer matching comes into play as well.
Chicago Teachers’ Pension Fund Releases 2019 Comprehensive Annual Financial Report, News April 1, 2020
The Chicago Teachers’ Pension Fund (CTPF) Board of Trustees has released its 2019 Comprehensive Annual Financial Report.
.....The funded ratio for pension benefits, based on the actuarial value of assets, decreased to 47.4% as of June 30, 2019.

Given that Illinois is already broke, losing population and jobs to many nearby states, and all public pensions are severely underfunded, I think that the future failure of these plans may lead to adoption of SS....which would be good on a go-forward basis.
samm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
? WEP - no pension newtoseattle FIRE and Money 13 01-30-2017 03:21 PM
Pension survivorship and GPO/WEP PERSonalTime FIRE and Money 5 10-07-2014 08:57 PM
Teacher Pension Question ... green night FIRE and Money 25 04-03-2014 09:37 AM
Will taking early state pension reduce WEP? Cincy FIRE and Money 5 03-16-2014 08:23 PM
Illinois Teacher Pension Fund DFW_M5 FIRE and Money 25 12-21-2011 07:12 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:00 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.