To convert to Roth or not?

sailfish

Dryer sheet aficionado
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I am curious about how many of you out there are planning to convert some or all of their IRA or 401K to a ROTH this year. Also, if you plan to pay all the tax in 2010 or split it up in 2011-2012. Wife and I are just 64, retired and I find it emotionally hard to use most of my cash in a regular account to pay for the ROTH conversion. I'm not that worried about leaving money tax free to the kids eventually and we probably will be able to stay at the top of the 15% tax level through the years. I know it makes sense and I just keep reading that converting at least some is the right thing to do!
Again, What are your thoughts!
Thanks
 
The question to ask is...

Will my marginal tax rate be higher than now when I liquidate the Roth accounts. If the answer is yes then A Roth conversion may make sense.
 
Even if the tax rates are the same, you do get the benefit of sort of adding those tax dollars to your Roth. More after-tax value saved in the Roth than the traditional IRA/401k.

I think after age 59.5 you don't need to worry about the 5 year waiting periods any longer, but that's something to confirm.

Try the Fidelity calculator or one of the others on the web.

I doubt you'll see a tremendous difference between your options, but maybe it'll be worth it to you.
 
I had a TIRA that I started years ago. I've been contributing to a Roth IRA instead and I finally got around to rolling it over into my Roth, just to get it out of my hair. And I only procrastinated for three or four years ! :uglystupid:
 
Regarding paying the tax on a conversion now or splitting it between 2011-2012, I spoke with our accountant about this yesterday. She said that if you pay it now, you pay this year's tax rates on the conversion; if you split it between 2011 and 2012, you pay those years' tax rates on the conversion. Her concern: "With the rate the government is spending money, I would not be surprised if taxes went up in the next couple of years."

Of course, she does not have a crystal ball, but it's something to consider. If you think tax rates will stay the same in the next couple of years, splitting it is probably a more attractive solution. But if you think they might go up, paying the tax this year makes more sense.
 
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I think after age 59.5 you don't need to worry about the 5 year waiting periods any longer, but that's something to confirm.

According to flowchart on p. 65 of Pub 590, this is true for the 5 yr waiting period for each conversion, providing that the first Roth you ever opened is at least 5 yrs old and you are over 59.5 yrs old.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p590.pdf

If the above is true, consider 2 cases: both in 25% bracket; both start w/
10K in TIRA and 2.5K in cash.
1) A converts to Roth. Tax on 10K conversion is 2.5K so A is left with only
10K in Roth. All 10K can be removed w/o tax/penalty provided A has
had a Roth for 5 yrs.........assume he had opened one more than 5 yrs
ago....and is over 59.5 y.o.
2) B does not convert so still has 10K in TIRA and 2.5K in cash. Although the gross amount is more than A, if he has to pull the 10K out of the TIRA,
he will owe 2.5K in tax so effectively does not have any more "useful" funds than A. Since the income earned by the cash in a taxable account is taxed, the Roth is actually somewhat better.

Even though I think I know this, it still is hard emotionally to convert and pay the taxes. Maybe living w/ the idea long enough will help. Another factor is that when RMDs from TIRAs are required after 70.5, the extra income could increase your tax bracket and make you worse off than if you had converted.


A.
 
My DW/me are 62. We do not plan on converting any TIRA's to Roths.

In our case, we have more than enough to live on (planning through age 100) and don't see any pressing need to pay taxes if not due. As someone said, "A tax delayed is a tax not paid".

We also have a special situation as after we both pass, our liquidated residual estate proceeds will be going to charity. Assuming the laws remain the same, our bequests (as to our TIRA's) will be tax-free to our named charities...
 
The question to ask is...

Will my marginal tax rate be higher than now when I liquidate the Roth accounts. If the answer is yes then A Roth conversion may make sense.

To the OP - what Master Blaster said is what should drive the decision - however, if one looks at the current US economic environment along with projected expenditures as well as meeting current expenditures, the aging of the populations, etc., I believe there is a high probability that the lowest tax brackets (aside form those who don't pay taxes) will still be at a higher percentage than what it is now. With the Bush tax roll backs set to expire, passive income will be taxed at a higher rate as well. This leads me to believe tax rates in general in the future will be higher than they have been. For me, I like the idea of having access to a tax-free fund to augment my other streams of income. Additionally, my IRA is not a significant amount of money, so the taxes I would pay now would not be onerous (i.e. I could pay it of cash I have laying around). I do have other tax-deferred investment vehicles which I will not be converting (would need to convert them to a self-directed IRA anyhow beforehand). I do know of some who are slowly converting their IRAs to Roths as they truly believe in having the tax-free income available, however, they have nice pensions which are taxed, so adding the RMDs into that situation make them end up forfeiting more of their hard earned money.

Your mileage will vary depending on your situation, however, my crystal ball says the good times will become less so in the future, so I'm going to take advantage of this brief respite (of course Congress will find a way to close this loophole).

Sort of aside - it seems that if you have a pension of some sorts, making the other streams of income more tax efficient becomes important, otherwise, you will be seeing quite a bit of your entitlements (I know bad word, but can't think of another one) and assets be taxed at higher rates.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself :)
 
I am planning to convert as much as I can within the "headroom" I have between my estimated income for 2010 and the upper limit of my tax bracket. Unrelated to that conversion, I just sold part of a fund to trim back my equity allocation. I plan to use the CG from that sale to pay the taxes on the Roth conversion.

I expect that my tax bracket will not change in the future (unless, of course, taxes increase.)
 
With the Bush tax roll backs set to expire, passive income will be taxed at a higher rate as well. This leads me to believe tax rates in general in the future will be higher than they have been. For me, I like the idea of having access to a tax-free fund to augment my other streams of income.

I suppose that one must also have a government trust caveat on the Roth IRA money. Do you trust the government some decades out, desperate for resources, to not slap a "use" fee or an "excess withdrawal penalty" tax on that Roth. There certainly is historical precedence for such.
 
I suppose that one must also have a government trust caveat on the Roth IRA money. Do you trust the government some decades out, desperate for resources, to not slap a "use" fee or an "excess withdrawal penalty" tax on that Roth. There certainly is historical precedence for such.

what precedence do you have in mind?
 
I suppose that one must also have a government trust caveat on the Roth IRA money. Do you trust the government some decades out, desperate for resources, to not slap a "use" fee or an "excess withdrawal penalty" tax on that Roth. There certainly is historical precedence for such.

No, no, no, no! They wouldn't do THAT!:D People would notice and us Boomers are still a major "stick" in the political "stick ball" game. No, I think they are getting everyone comfortable with the idea of essentially, a national sales tax (call it VAT or excise or whatever). So no one can accuse them of taxing Roth gains or withdrawals. "No, we aren't taxing Roths, Mr. X. As long as you don't spend the money - there's no tax!!":whistle:

Seriously, I have no more insight than the next person regarding future taxation or what form it will take - that really is up to all of us, er, U.S. We'll get the tax increases we'll put up with. My guess is that "tax the rich" will become the battle cry - until the middle class folks find out that THEY are the rich. :(

Related elsewhere on the forum, I'm in the process of converting significant traditional IRA's to Roth IRAs. Since most of my starting "stash" was in trad. IRAs, I thought this might be a good hedge. I'll end up with some of each by the time RMD's roll around. My SWAG comes down on the side of higher taxes (in one or many forms) in the future. It would be nice if I were wrong.
 
I think on all of this it also depends how much available cash you have (to pay the taxes) and whether you have so much in IRAs that the RMDs will raise your tax bracket in the future. Also on where you are today, financially. If you make less in the future, higher tax rates might not affect you.

I've got a weird addition to the stories... I have an 89 year old father. If he dies and leaves me some money (which I expect, the question is when...) that could significantly change my income afterward. How to plan :confused: !!!

I mean, at 89 there is no telling the future. My mother seemed fine and died in 3 weeks of starting to feel ill, at 85. Dad still plays tennis :). Who knows...

Not asking for advice, but this is something I haven't heard mentioned.
 
what precedence do you have in mind?

Prior to 1997, if you took more than a certain amount out of an IRA you paid an excess distribution penalty tax of 15%. That was on top of any income taxes due or any early withdrawal penalties (if applicable).

That's the precedence I had in mind.
 
Prior to 1997, if you took more than a certain amount out of an IRA you paid an excess distribution penalty tax of 15%. That was on top of any income taxes due or any early withdrawal penalties (if applicable).

That's the precedence I had in mind.

OUCH!!!! This is no longer true, correct? I never heard of limits on withdrawals, just RMDs.
 
Prior to 1997, if you took more than a certain amount out of an IRA you paid an excess distribution penalty tax of 15%. That was on top of any income taxes due or any early withdrawal penalties (if applicable).

That's the precedence I had in mind.

hmmmm i dont think i know what that was, can you provide details (like how much was too much, was it age dependant, etc.)?
 
I've got a weird addition to the stories... I have an 89 year old father. If he dies and leaves me some money (which I expect, the question is when...) that could significantly change my income afterward. How to plan :confused: !!!

I mean, at 89 there is no telling the future. My mother seemed fine and died in 3 weeks of starting to feel ill, at 85. Dad still plays tennis :). Who knows...

Not asking for advice, but this is something I haven't heard mentioned.

Poison?
 
hmmmm i dont think i know what that was, can you provide details (like how much was too much, was it age dependant, etc.)?


<This is prior law and is therefore no longer directly applicable>
Prior law: Prior law contained provisions that assessed onerous penalties under four different sets of circumstances. Penalties are assessed for excess contributions to an IRA. This is a 6% nondeductible penalty, assessed each year that the excess is not withdrawn. A second penalty is assessed for excess distributions from an IRA and other qualified plans. This is a 15% nondeductible tax on total retirement distributions to an individual, during any one calendar year, in excess of a predeterminedpre·de·ter·mine
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines

v.tr.
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance:
..... Click the link for more information. amount adjusted for inflation ($155,000 for 1996). Individuals with accrued benefitsAccrued benefits

The pension benefits earned by an employee according to the years of the employee's service.
..... Click the link for more information. of more than $562,500 on Aug. 1, 1986 are allowed to make a grandfather election that could exempt certain distributions from the excess distributions penalty. The third penalty provision is a 15% Federal estate tax (over the regular Federal estate tax) for excess retirement accumulations. The excess accumulation Excess accumulation

The amount of a required minimum distribution that an IRA holder fails to remove from an IRA in a timely manner. Excess accumulations are subject to a 50% IRS penalty tax. is the value at the date of death in the decedent's retirement plans over the present value of a single life annuity Single life annuity

An annuity covering one person. A straight life annuity provides payments until death, while a life annuity with a guaranteed period provides payments until death or continues payments to a beneficiary for a guaranteed term, such as ten years. with annual payments over predetermined amounts. The fourth penalty provision is a 10% excise tax Excise Tax

1. An indirect tax charged on the sale of a particular good.

2. A penalty tax applied to ineligible transactions in retirement accounts. This penalty is assessed by and paid to the IRS.

Notes:
1. on premature distributions from IRAs and other qualified plans. This penalty generally applies to distributions made before age 59 1/2 (with some exceptions). New law: Sec. 4980A(g), as amended by SBJPA Section 1452(b) (effective for years beginning after 1996 and before 2000), suspends the 15% excess distribution excise tax from IRAs and other qualified plans. This is an extremely valuable planning tool for any client with significant IRA and other retirement accumulations as a result of either corporate rollovers or successful retirement plan growth. The suspension of the 15% penalty on excess distributions not only avoids the excess distribution penalty for the three-year suspension period, but also can allow the taxpayer to reduce the plan total (in order to avoid the 15% penalty on excess retirement accumulations). Planning opportunity: Practitioners should carefully review their client lists to determine which clients may be subject to both the excess distributions and excess retirement accumulations penalties. Projections should be made using reasonable earnings assumptions for clients' current retirement balances and assumptions about their future income tax brackets Noun 1. income tax bracket - a category of taxpayers based on the amount of their income
income bracket, tax bracket

bracket - a category falling within certain defined limits under different life expectancy Life Expectancy

1. The age until which a person is expected to live.

2. The remaining number of years an individual is expected to live, based on IRS issued life expectancy tables. scenarios. These projections can be used to explain the likelihood of the application of these two penalties, and a joint decision can be made with the client as to the appropriateness of accelerating IRA and other plan distributions during the three-year suspension period for the excess distributions excise tax. The projections related to this issue are very complex. The factors to be considered include not only assumptions about retirement account earnings, future tax rates and life expectancy, but also present value calculations comparing potential future penalties to current income taxes (which would be voluntarily accelerated if earlier distributions are chosen).
 
a "use" fee or an "excess withdrawal penalty" tax on that Roth.

I don't see this happening, because the Roth money is so explicitly "tax-free." That is, the whole selling point was that you pay taxes when you put it in so that there are no taxes when you take it out.

Concerning a possible VAT tax, you'll be paying that on the withdrawn money whether or not it was converted to a Roth, so that's irrelevant to the conversion decision, right?
 
I don't see this happening, because the Roth money is so explicitly "tax-free." That is, the whole selling point was that you pay taxes when you put it in so that there are no taxes when you take it out.

Concerning a possible VAT tax, you'll be paying that on the withdrawn money whether or not it was converted to a Roth, so that's irrelevant to the conversion decision, right?

To be honest, my mind doesn't do very well with this type of thinking. I once thought as T-Al suggests as well, but I was thinking I read about a flaw in the logic. I'm sure someone here, smarter than I, can figure this out. Recall that the process includes mixing at least 3 kinds of money at one time or another (even before considering VAT). 1) Tax deferred money (e.g., in a Traditional IRA) 2) Taxable money as in money put into a Roth or that converted from Trad. to Roth and 3) "already taxed" money as in money you put toward your tax bill to cover the conversion from Trad. to Roth or the taxes to pay for income that goes into a Roth originally.

I keep coming back to the thought that by doing a conversion, you actually end up with a "bigger" IRA (A Roth is worth more for the same nominal dollar figure) because the tax has already been paid. So you shelter more money from taxes in a Roth than in a Trad. IRA. So when you finally cash in the Roth, you actually get to spend more than you would had it been a Trad. Of course, you no longer have the money you spent on paying tax at conversion.

Okay, I give up. Someone impress us :cool: and show us how to figure this if the VAT (etc.) is an issue to converting or not, please. :flowers: But, keep it simple, like "Mary had $1000 and Joe had $1000... :whistle:
 
Tax Brackets, IRA choices, and Retirement Oh My !

Tax Brackets and IRA choices

1) If your marginal tax bracket will be higher in retirement then a ROTH is the way to go.

2) If tax brackets are the same during the working years as when you take the money out...

then one dollar [earned, invested in a deferred tax plan, and then withdrawn in retirement and taxes then paid]

is exactly equal to :

the one dollar[ earned, paid taxes on when earned, invested in a ROTH plan and then withdrawn in retirement]

provided the term is the same and the investment rate gain is the same.

3) IF marginal tax rates go down in retirement then go with the deferred plan. If marginal tax rates go up in retirement then go with the ROTH.

Good luck with predicting your future tax rates and future tax policy some decades out ! If your income is at least what you make now then I would predict that your retirement income tax rates will be at least as high (or higher) than they are now. MY magic 8-ball says that for you perhaps the ROTH is the way to go.
 
The Sure Thing

I don't see this happening, because the Roth money is so explicitly "tax-free."

Well that's the promise. However are you willing to bet the farm that those in control won't want a cut.

They could make some story up about you being so well off that you must give up your fair share to those in need. And if you take out more than they deem to be needed then the tax free deal is off. In that case I could see additional taxes on your "excess" withdrawal.

No such sure thing.
 
Concerning a possible VAT tax, you'll be paying that on the withdrawn money whether or not it was converted to a Roth, so that's irrelevant to the conversion decision, right?

It might be relevant to your decision in this way... If you believe taxes in the future must be higher, you might be tempted to give more preference to Roth; but then if government decides to increases taxes not so much via income tax but instead via VAT, it might turn out that Traditional IRA was better after all (since your income tax would still be lower but VAT would be the tax making up the difference). So, recognizing this possibility may pull you back to Traditional IRA.
 

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