What's the True Cost of the Bailout

The Congressional Budget Office director yesterday told Congress that the proposed bailout may worsen the current financial crisis. “Ironically, the intervention could even trigger additional failures of large institutions, because some institutions may be carrying troubled assets on their books at inflated values,” Peter Orszag said. “Establishing clearer prices might reveal those institutions to be insolvent.”
Bailout Could Deepen Crisis, CBO Chief Says - washingtonpost.com
Think Progress » ThinkFast: September 25, 2008

Treasury explains how it came up with $700 billion: We just wanted ‘a really large number.’

Forbes writes on part of the reason that the American public is so skeptical of the Bush administration’s bailout proposal:

In fact, some of the most basic details, including the $700 billion figure Treasury would use to buy up bad debt, are fuzzy.

“It’s not based on any particular data point,” a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. “We just wanted to choose a really large number.”
Think Progress » Treasury explains how it came up with $700 billion: We just wanted ‘a really large number.’
Bad News For The Bailout - Forbes.com

I wish someone were more forthcoming on the mechanisms here.. how much is supposed to go to whom and what is the expected result?
 
no one really knows

a lot of these assets are level 3 that aren't reported because they are in off-balance sheet entities like SIV's

i think CBO is partly wrong. failure of an institution is not that scary as a failure without a backstop from the government to stop cascading failures like that which AIG could have been caused. and the big thing is too many failures at once. if they happen over several years than the market can absorb it, if it happens within a month or faster than it sends fear and people just pull everything out at once.
 
The government will make a major fortune with the "bailout." First, they avoid the total collapse of the credit system. Therefore, home values will not plummet. Unemployment will not exceed 20%. With a stable and possibly recovering housing market and employment picture, they will avoid the distraction caused by repeated state and local bankruptcies. They will avoid the reduction of 20% of federal tax revenue. But hey, they can alway tax the rich.

Once the "mark to market death spiral" is broken every bank and financial company can mark up to market as stability returns through an orderly auction process. The value will be set by what the actual performance of the asset produces and not the worst case scenario thrown around. Stupid investments will remain stupid investments when the smoke clears. Unfortunately, everything involving mortgages are toxic. Everyone is afraid to buy anything that isn't pennies on the dollar. 95+% of all mortgages are performing. How can all mortgage backed assets be valued between 35 to 65 cents to the dollar?

This problem has been entirely caused by stupid Fed actions and other laws and policies. Mark to market is #1 followed by naked shorting which I still have trouble understanding why anyone would let someone "sell" them a stock and not deliver it as required by SEC regulations. If people can do naked shorts why can't they do naked buys. I could "buy" without committing cash and totally take over the publically traded company of my choice.

This problem needs a quick, direct action to turn the corner. It may be time to actually do things I would otherwise consider stupid like permanently banning short sales (at least until the situation improves but it has to sound permanent). Using the "bailout" as an excuse to load it up with feel-good crap will be worse than doing nothing.

I actually think that when the bozos get done there will be a workable bill that can be implemented to do what's needed. Afterwards, go in and execute those that made money off the weird derivatives, sieze their assets and sell their families into slavery. I really don't care at that point.


You can't stop shorting, that would in essence, stop the market from trading. Imagine a computer aged trading system where computers can't be used, and each trade will force that brokerage firm to manually go seek out someone to sell to match the buy. I guess it would slow down any free fall.
In my opinion, the mistakes were many, and backed wholeheartedly by Congress at the time. They lifted the up tick rule, that was put in place after the Great Depression, and for good reason. Why is it, we can't change an outdated Bill of Rights, but we can arbitrarily lift something as topical as an uptick rule?
We allowed Hedge Funds to classify themselves with the same rights as brokerages, and thusly were allowed to naked short 'til their hearts content. Now as the rules are changing, notice large Hedge Funds either breaking up (to hide assets?), or soon to be declaring bankruptcy (to avoid prosecution).
They've allowed for fancy accounting systems which conveniently make it possible for major corporations to "write off" bad debt.

While I am totally for the bailout, there have got to be rules. And there has got to be a team of accountants brought into these corporations to not only review the books, but to be involved in them in the future. Any company taking a bailout should not only agree to government involvement, but also must agree to wiping out all bonuses for execs for these companies, a freeze on all golden parachutes, and a plan to repay the government as soon as possible. In this way, the shareholders (and bondholders)won't be getting raped as the fat cats flee, and it just might restore some faith to the system. JMO.
 
Will someone with knowledge about this bailout thesis please explain why they think it will work? I have listened to hearings and the analysts but no one can really prove that it will work.

As I understand it from an analysts explanation, the interest rate paid by commercial and other borrowers is too high now (the spread betweeen LIBOR and Treasury and the rate they have to pay is too wide) so that slows down borrowing and therefore the economy. With the $700 billion injection that will infuse enough money to narrow the spread.

So what happens after the $700 is in the system (just like the stimulus rebate checks) and it gets used up in one way or another? I have heard analysts say that it all depends on whether the housing situation improves and whether the economy improves.

I don't think the housing crisis is going away any time soon. There are still millions of option ARMs to recast in California and elsewhere. If the economy doesn't improve with this "bailout" then what? More bailout? Or a collapse anyway?
 
every financial institution from your neighborhood bank to Goldman Sachs is essentially a hedge fund. They borrow at lower short term rates to invest in higher yielding long term investments and use various strategies to hedge the investment.

pretty much every mortgage loan was made with borrowed money. Either short term commercial paper or your checking account or CD. if the mortgages fail they still owe money to whoever they borrowed it from.

Government buys up the loans and takes the losses. Banks get money and we have years of slower growth due to better lending standards instead of systemic financial failure where hundreds of financial institutions along with local governments fail and deflation will most likely occur for years if not decades. and with that no scientific or cultural advancement for decades.

not every loan will fail, but the defaults are at much higher levels than originally thought and what the loans were priced at. overall the foreclosure rate is still not very high by historical standards. it's just that too many institutions took too much risk with too much leverage in the last 8 years to make this a big problem
 
In my opinion, the mistakes were many, and backed wholeheartedly by Congress at the time. They lifted the up tick rule, that was put in place after the Great Depression, and for good reason. Why is it, we can't change an outdated Bill of Rights, but we can arbitrarily lift something as topical as an uptick rule?
I don't think Congress lifted the uptick rule. I think the SEC did that all by themselves.

Audrey
 
Will someone with knowledge about this bailout thesis please explain why they think it will work? I have listened to hearings and the analysts but no one can really prove that it will work.

As I understand it from an analysts explanation, the interest rate paid by commercial and other borrowers is too high now (the spread betweeen LIBOR and Treasury and the rate they have to pay is too wide) so that slows down borrowing and therefore the economy. With the $700 billion injection that will infuse enough money to narrow the spread.

So what happens after the $700 is in the system (just like the stimulus rebate checks) and it gets used up in one way or another? I have heard analysts say that it all depends on whether the housing situation improves and whether the economy improves.

I don't think the housing crisis is going away any time soon. There are still millions of option ARMs to recast in California and elsewhere. If the economy doesn't improve with this "bailout" then what? More bailout? Or a collapse anyway?
The $700B is not like a rebate check. It is a "sovereign wealth fund" if you will. A fund that buys distressed debt for pennies on the dollar with the reasonable hope of realizing profit down the road. Since the govt doesn't have to worry about ratings or going bankrupt (since it prints the money), it can "afford" to own some of this toxic stuff while the private sector currently simply cannot. The government buys the debt cheap (hopefully). The bank that sold it to them gets it off the books and therefore its balance sheet improves. It is free to make new (hopefully better) loans. Since the govt bought the debt setting a floor on the value, other banks can mark their books with (hopefully better) numbers that makes their balance sheets look a little better. Now they also are free to make some new loans. Meanwhile, the debt the govt bought isn't worthless. The govt continues to get paid on that debt or disposes of the related property, or holds it until market conditions improve.

Audrey
 
Sorry, perhaps my punctuation wasn't clear. I was stating in a separate sentence that "they" lifted the uptick rule. Not that Congress did. My implication was that Congress backed many mistakes.
 
I don't think Congress lifted the uptick rule. I think the SEC did that all by themselves.

Audrey

I don't see what that has to do with the price of cheese anyway. How would that have fixed the problem we have now?
 
I don't see what that has to do with the price of cheese anyway. How would that have fixed the problem we have now?
Congress enacted the uptick rule in the 1930s? because that was part of what caused the depth of the 1929 market crash. True - it's purely technical. HOWEVER allowing shorts to pile on as a stock drops can result in very sudden and sharp drops. It also makes it extremely tempting for shorts to spread panicky rumors that help drive a stock price down.

Unfortunately, the ratings agencies for financial stocks also look at stock price (as a measure of confidence) for the company ratings. So as the stock price drops, the rating agencies lower ratings, leading to more price drops - a downward spiral.

Having the uptick rule still in place along with enforcing rules against naked short selling would have slowed the process down. Slowing things down in distressed market conditions is very important. It gives companies time to make deals. When things happen too fast (as it has recently), companies fail instead as everyone gets too scared to do anything.

Audrey
 
Congress enacted the uptick rule in the 1930s? because that was part of what caused the depth of the 1929 market crash. True - it's purely technical. HOWEVER allowing shorts to pile on as a stock drops can result in very sudden and sharp drops. It also makes it extremely tempting for shorts to spread panicky rumors that help drive a stock price down.

Unfortunately, the ratings agencies for financial stocks also look at stock price (as a measure of confidence) for the company ratings. So as the stock price drops, the rating agencies lower ratings, leading to more price drops - a downward spiral.

Having the uptick rule still in place along with enforcing rules against naked short selling would have slowed the process down. Slowing things down in distressed market conditions is very important. It gives companies time to make deals. When things happen too fast (as it has recently), companies fail instead as everyone gets too scared to do anything.

Audrey

Audrey, I think you have a pretty good grasp on the situation, but you need to take a more dire view of the results. By naked shorting FNM and FRE, without any concern about covering, it caused the stock to freefall. Considering there was no uptick rule, they didn't have to concern themselves with a ratchet down in price, or even a slowing drop in price. It made them able to tank the stocks!
Now, if you're a shareholder in Fannie Mae, how long are you willing to watch that price go from $60 to $3 before you bail and take your losses?
 
is he on any drugs?

why have this crazy system when the market can do this for you? good for him and other rich people that have access to more information. bad for the guy on the street managing his investments


I'd say from his perspective, everyone knows how to read a balance sheet. I guess it wouldn't hurt for everyone to learn right now.
Read some of his other blogs on there. The guy's pretty sharp! I know I've made some money piggybacking him.
 
Too bad he can't figure out how to win an NBA championship...


I think he knows how, he should have paid Tim Donaghy more than the bookies did for him to screw the Mavs.
 
Audrey, I think you have a pretty good grasp on the situation, but you need to take a more dire view of the results. By naked shorting FNM and FRE, without any concern about covering, it caused the stock to freefall. Considering there was no uptick rule, they didn't have to concern themselves with a ratchet down in price, or even a slowing drop in price. It made them able to tank the stocks!
Now, if you're a shareholder in Fannie Mae, how long are you willing to watch that price go from $60 to $3 before you bail and take your losses?
Yes - thank you for outlining the additional (and accurate) direness to the picture! It was the combination of no uptick rule and naked shorting (which was illegal but not enforced!!!!) and rating agency ratings that proved so deadly this past month.

With the uptick rule in place, and proper enforcement of naked shorting, it might never have been necessary for the US Govt take over FNM and FRE, and maybe some of the other financial institutions.

I'm sure the US Govt would still have had to step in to some degree due to the massive leveraging of these crazy investment banks, and the mortgage mess, but perhaps not on the current scale.

Audrey
 
I don't think Congress lifted the uptick rule. I think the SEC did that all by themselves.

Audrey

yeah, but WAY TOO late for it to help.......;) Bottom line, hedge funds have exploded in assets, and their leverage advantages using short selling tools that funds and others can't use, finally tipped the house of cards over.
 
The SEC knew there was a problem. At first they merely stated, no more naked shorting on FNM or FRE. They came back a month or two later to include major banks. Why not, in one swoop, just state no more naked shorting?? Because people in Washington were making a killing in hedge funds.
How long before someone starts suing these hedge funds?
 
yeah, but WAY TOO late for it to help.......;) Bottom line, hedge funds have exploded in assets, and their leverage advantages using short selling tools that funds and others can't use, finally tipped the house of cards over.
Huh? Way too late? 2007? They shouldn't have removed the uptick rule at all!

Audrey
 
Huh? Way too late? 2007? They shouldn't have removed the uptick rule at all!Audrey

Why?? It's not like it created a liquidity crisis or anything. Bottom line, if the hedge funds had to follow rules like the mutual funds do, noone would invest in them, because the their advantage would be neutralized.......;)
 
Hey, I just figured out how the government could make a profit on the bailout. The key is to get people to pay their subprime mortgages, right? So, d'uh, we just send this guy out to make the collections!
 
the ultimate "cost" of this will all depend on whether 1) "we" make a habit of doing it, and 2) how much political advantage is taken of the situation. if done well and "clean", the "cost" could indeed be 0 or negative. but given the way things usually go with politicians ... .
 
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