Where on earth is the value investor to go ?

This time it's Different. It would truly have to be different this time to get a major correction after 4 years at the current levels.
Well, that's true, but not too different.

The S&P500 had huge runup 1962-66, then a couple nice peaks & dips between 66-72, but it basically slid sideways near the 90s for those four years. It was a timer's dancing delight but a killer if you missed a step.

Then came the '73 oil shock. The S&P500's low point was 65... just before Labor Day 1974.

After that I remember BW's infamous "Are Stocks Dead?" issue-- from 1979. And we were still three years away from the start of the next great bull market!

So I suspect that $75 oil could make things really interesting.

When that happens, we'll be living off our two-year cash stash and keeping an eye on the calendar!
 
Nords, don't get me wrong. I'm certainly not saying that we are the heels of a Bull Market. What I'm saying is that Major Corrections come close to major bubbles.

We've been flat for 4 years. We could be flat for 15 more years, or 5 years. You just have to guess to right. And I know I can't time the market!
 
In looking at the numbers, it appears to me that after the big 94-00 runup we dropped back down to what appears to be the 'mean' or 'reasonable value level'...according to a variety of measurements like 'morningstar fair value' we did see some value back in 02-03.

But then the recent run-up appears to have brought us right back to the brink of high valuations...by almost any metric.

Its possible that is IS 'all different now' and we'll proceed at nosebleed valuations with the usual 8%+ return on equities.

As such, I have my pitiful 46%-whatever in stocks, but I'm waiting to see a value proposition before I commit my cash. So's Buffett, so I dont feel too dumb.

I read the four pillars, I know the data. Indexing is the way to go. But its gone nowhere for investors in the last 5 years, and I'm betting it goes nowhere for 5 more.

Guess we'll find out! ;)
 
I read the four pillars, I know the data. Indexing is the way to go. But its gone nowhere for investors in the last 5 years, and I'm betting it goes nowhere for 5 more.

Me too! - But, you do reacall the chapter on recency. 5 years does not make a portfolio.
 
Yep I know that. But so far I've made a couple of hundred thousand in the last 5 years. S&P500 is negative for the same period.

When I kept dumping my company stock every year to diversify, I was a moron for 6 years, then when the stock dropped 80% I was a genius all of a sudden without changing strategies. Maybe the same thing will happen in reverse now...the S&P500 will take off and gain 30-40% over the next 5 years and make my crappy 4-5% non-stock investments pale by comparison.

I'm sort of doubting it...but I guess whatever happens will make for some interesting discussion fodder between now and then!
 
Don't listen to me. I've already admitted that I'm an Investing idiot. That's why I've gone the Indexing route.
 
I would like to think that the correction was in 2003.

But I do not think we have "seen the bottom yet" of the 2000 bubble.

I think the last advancement was a "sucker's rally".

We really have to get to low teens PE's before we call the correction complete.

And earnings are peaking.

Fasten your safety belt. I am not a "market timer" but this one has been a "no brainer" for me for awhile. Fortunately I've bailed on a lot of of positions and moved portions internationally.

Sleepless in Delaware........
 
I have no idea what the market will do, but wanted to pass along Jeremy Grantham's opinion:

http://www.gmo.com/siteservercontents/marketcommentary/jg_letter_all_4q04.1107189819.pdf
Great Bear Markets Take Their Time
Yes, it already seems like we’ve been waiting a long time
for the market low, but actually this wait is far from
remarkable on a historical basis. In fact, a low in these
next 24 months would be the most typical timing we
could expect from history. But this market cycle has been
interestingly different from earlier bubbles and probably
we should not expect a typical experience.
The first difference is that the market in 2000 went far
higher than ever before: 34 times trailing earnings versus
21 times at the market tops of 1965 and 1929. Even
Japan, adjusted for cross holdings, was not materially
higher. Second, the sustained phase of declining interest
rates and easy money has no historical US parallel, either
in extent or duration. Third, stock ownership was far
broader than ever before, so that the great majority of the
readers of large circulation magazines, for example,
owned stocks this time, while they did not in the other
bull markets....
The normal tendency is for the length of the market
decline following a bubble to take about the same time or
a little less to get back to trend as the market increase took
from trend line to peak. For this down cycle from March
2000, that would lead us to expect a market low this year
or next. And admittedly there is quite a bit of noise
around this average, although less than you’d probably think.
A low in 2009 and 2010 would be just within the
normal range at the longer end and 2002 would equally
have been just within the short end of the normal range.
Indeed, in September 2002 when the S&P tumbled to
775, which was half its peak price, the market looked for
a couple of weeks like it might just make the real break
and slice through the then fair value of 700+/- and
establish a real low, say in the low 600s, and get this
whole unpleasantness out of the way.

My opinion is that over the next 30 years, stocks will significantly outperform cash or bonds. Since I don't know the timing and think I can tolerate extreme volatility, I don't want to hold much more cash today than I'd be willing to hold for the long run.
 
I am no Abby J Cohen (hahahaha) but I think C-T made some valid points.  We are not in a bubble in my opinion and I don't think we will have a major correction.  Flat is more realistic in my very humble & meaningless opinion.

Funny thing today I got to listen to Dr. Jensen, a highly acclaimed academic professor from Harvard.  He became famous when he wrote about how corporations should return all of the money they make backk to shareholders as dividends b/c the people running the corporations pissed the money away on wasteful projects.  He is considered by many in the academic world to be the father of modern corporate finance.  Anyway he admitted that he pulled all of his money out of the equity markets in 2000 and hasn't been back since.

My opinion - it never pays to be a perpetual bull and it never pays to be a perpetual bear.    
 
C-T- great chart of the Dow for a century +. One thing really jumps out- volatility has taken a vacation over the last 18 years or so. Other than the 1987 crash, very few drops stick out on that chart, including the drop before Desert Storm and the drop of several years ago. They are just lost in the noise.

Other than this period, the only relentlessly uncorrected advance was from the trough early in WW2. The only segment that shows a slope even in the ballpark of 1994 to present is the blast off in the 20s leading up to crash of 29.

I am frustrated like everyone else, but I can't bring myself to believe that a meaningful advance can come from here. In '42, the tide of war had turned on both fronts. We had a never before seen manufacturing base. We had hard working people with little or no debt. Corporate liquidity was high. The long period of expansion of the American oil industry was just beginning.

Today, most of these things are a the opposite end. Consumers are up to their eyeballs in debt. We have to send troops across the world to grab oil, at great cost in treasure and life. Most manufacturing is outsourced to China or Bangladesh or Africa. If we ever get into a war with China, it had better be over fast, 'cause we can't sustain it.

It looks like a fool's paradise to me, and although so far nothing has happened the potential is sure there. Once something starts, I don't know where the floor might be, because the background could be seen as very negative.

IMO, it is like one of those perceptual puzzles where one second you are looking at a beautiful young woman wearing a headscarf. The next minute she has been transformed into an old crone. Bang, you can't control the flip.

I paid tax on $100,000 of CGs this year, and I've booked another $60,000 this year- and I still have a lot of stock. I may end up feeling foolish for taking these gains; but I also may end up feeling relieved that I am not having trouble controlling my bowels because the stock market just underwent a 50% drop.

Mike
 
I read the four pillars, I know the data. Indexing is the way to go. But its gone nowhere for investors in the last 5 years, and I'm betting it goes nowhere for 5 more.

All depends on what you're indexing -- I've been indexing other things like small international value and small US value, developing country bonds, REITS and commodities and the portfolio is up about 57% over the last 5 years.
 
Does anyone else find it funny to see a bunch early retired, financially independent people who enjoy every day just the way they want to call themselves idiots, etc. on this board? You guys, the idiots sit all around me all day long, trust me, you guys aren't among them! :)
 
Well, C-T and I don't usually call ourselves "idiots". We normally reserve that for others :) Anyway, we're justing
killing time and amusing ourselves. I think that one reason I can enjoy retirement so much is that I am self
entertaining. I love my own writing/pontificating.
DW agrees. Unfortunately, she doesn't find this trait endearing :)

JG
 
I am frustrated like everyone else, but I can't bring myself to believe that a meaningful advance can come from here

Mikey,

I certainly agree with you here. In fact I don't see a meaningful advance in any investment right now. Hence the gist of this thread!

My only point is that I don't think we'll see a major correction in stocks, because these usually follow the euphoria of a bubble. No one is euphoric over stocks.

The only euphoria that I see is real estate.
 
What with indexing, Vanguard, and some cash and bonds, my big consolation is, if I go down, everybody else will, too. Well, most everybody! :D
 
What with indexing, Vanguard, and some cash and bonds, my big consolation is, if I go down, everybody else will, too.  
That doesn't console me at all. Having lots of company won't solve anything if you find your self on the Titanic.
I would much rather be lonely in a life boat! :)
 
Heh, heh, heh

My trusty no. 2 pencil says a 50% market drop combined with a 20% bond drop is livable in my balanced index based retirement.

Wrapped around the emotional Maypole - if it happens, you bet! Just stand there and do nothing - my fond hope!

The modern version of 1966 - 1982 - aka long sideways movement with an entertaining 73-74 type drop combined with some new form of stagflation is not something I look forward to - but it doesn't keep me awake at night either.

De Gaul and the Norwegian widow ride on. Got my Yogi Berra book from last year in case things get really grippy and need to lighten up.
 
Back
Top Bottom