Who counts as Rich?

[mountaintosea]

According to the Fed website the top 1% makes 380,000/year or has 13 million in assets. I believe that's in 2009 terms.

 

[pb4uski]

.....Real rich people don't want to show off their wealth for two reasons: [1] they don't want to be targeted for their wealth; stay below the radar. [2] material wealth is no longer important to them, they're already financially secure, so they don't need to show off.

Who knows, maybe they even have push reel mowers in their garages.

I actually have a push reel mower in my garage. Not sure what to make of that though.

 

[Spanky]

I just find it interesting that level for 'the rich' seems to be lowered every time you turn around.

It means that everyone is getting poorer even for the rich.
Soon an asset of $1 dollar is considered rich when everyone else has nothing.

 

[NW-Bound]

I feel rich whenever my portfolio sets a new personal high watermark. Like in May of 2011.

I feel poor now.

 

[clifp]

It turns out Newt Gingrich's 2.6M/year doesn't qualify him as rich either.

What I'm seeing in the thread is an aversion to calling yourself rich. - Rich is perpetually other people. But it all depends on who you're comparing yourself to.

I lived for 4 months in central China surrounded by poverty. In striking contrast, less than a year after I returned to the US I got a job making well over $100k while still in my early 20's. I think it would be an incredible insult to my Chinese friends I left behind to not consider myself rich. "Yeah, I make more in a month than you make in 10 years, but I'm not rich, you should hear about this other guy I know who makes every month what I make in 10 years, now he's the rich one."

Of course if you compare yourself to billionaires you're not going to consider yourself rich.

But if I compare myself to everyone I've ever met in my life, even people I've just bumped elbows with, I'd have to estimate I have more assets and income than about 95% of them. I've thought of myself as rich ever since I was a teenager. Even though my parents never would have dreamed of putting that label on themselves.

Great post.
I know why rich is a label people aren't comfortable with but don't accept that rich is or certainly should be a pejorative. I want everyone to be rich, just like I'd want everyone to be a great athlete, great humanitarian and live to ripe old age.

I worked in Silicon Valley so I certainly wasn't in the top 5% by those standards, but by US standard and certainly world standards I am rich.

People have different talents, and different skills. God knows at times in Jr High I would have traded a few IQ points for the ability to not embarrass myself on the basketball court, baseball field, tennis court, art class or shop class. My hand to eye coordination is probably in the bottom 5%.

It is funny parents are extremely proud when their kids scores in the top 5% in the SAT, goes to an elite college, does well in virtually any sport, appears in plays. Even adults are generally comfortable acknowledging that they are a excellent golfer, bowler, chess player, cook, gardener, but you apply those same criteria to wealthy and naw were just middle class.

 

[Amethyst]

Rich is when you can hire servants for cooking, cleaning, organizing, watching kids, etc. and it's not a stretch (e.g. upper middle class people have nannies, and it's often a significant expense for them).

Amethyst

 

[WestLake]

According to Scott Burns one needs $4 million to be independently upper middle class: http://assetbuilder.com/blogs/scott_burns/archive/2011/07/08/mere-millionaires-need-not-apply.aspx

 

[Amethyst]

That is because as soon as people confirm that you are well off, somebody starts trying to get at your money (whether by straight-out asking, suing you over a trifle, trying to get you to chip in for something that they and others want).

Bragging about your kids is a way of bragging about yourself at one remove, so it's allowed.

Bragging about your accomplishments is allowed, because then people know if they want to invite you to bowl with them, etc. I stopped telling people how much I loved gardening after a couple of pushy dames tried to push me into working in THEIR gardens for free "Because you love it so much."

Now, what I have never fully understood, is why we are not allowed to brag about our looks. Maybe because it's obvious to everyone who is gifted in that department, and who isn't, so why discuss it?

Amethyst

Great post.
I
It is funny parents are extremely proud when their kids scores in the top 5% in the SAT, goes to an elite college, does well in virtually any sport, appears in plays. Even adults are generally comfortable acknowledging that they are a excellent golfer, bowler, chess player, cook, gardener, but you apply those same criteria to wealthy and naw were just middle class.

 

[Hamlet]

I think one thing that keeps most people from "feeling" rich is a shifting frame of reference.

My wife and I make a combined income that puts us near the top 10% of households, and we live in the Minneapolis area, so we don't have to contend with the massively inflated costs of the coasts.

By every objective measure, we are very well off. However, our friends make similiar money. Our parents make more, my boss makes much more. I am involved in a hobby that has me interacting with people who probably make 10 times what I do. That makes it harder to feel "rich".

What is funny is that all of those "rich" people have the same thing going on. The doctor that makes me feel "poor" when I visit his home is interacting with other doctors, some of them in specialties that make 10 times what he makes. Where I feel in awe of his fancy house, he feels in awe of his friend's mansion on the lake.

I'm sure that the guy with the house on the lake knows people that make him feel "poor".

At the end of the day, I think the only people that really end up feeling rich are Warren Buffett and Bill Gates.

 

[check6]

Rich is when you can hire servants for cooking, cleaning, organizing, watching kids, etc. and it's not a stretch (e.g. upper middle class people have nannies, and it's often a significant expense for them).

Amethyst

We have this discussion all the time. Even if we were that wealthy we are too private to ever warrant a house large enough to require "servants."

I wonder how many people it takes to run Candy Spelling's 56,000 sq ft LA bungalow.

 

[Spanky]

People have different talents, and different skills.

but they are valued significantly different.

It is funny parents are extremely proud when their kids scores in the top 5% in the SAT

Not good enough for most Asian families.

 

[Spanky]

I think one thing that keeps most people from "feeling" rich is a shifting frame of reference.

My wife and I make a combined income that puts us near the top 10% of households, and we live in the Minneapolis area, so we don't have to contend with the massively inflated costs of the coasts.

By every objective measure, we are very well off. However, our friends make similiar money. Our parents make more, my boss makes much more. I am involved in a hobby that has me interacting with people who probably make 10 times what I do. That makes it harder to feel "rich".

What is funny is that all of those "rich" people have the same thing going on. The doctor that makes me feel "poor" when I visit his home is interacting with other doctors, some of them in specialties that make 10 times what he makes. Where I feel in awe of his fancy house, he feels in awe of his friend's mansion on the lake.

I'm sure that the guy with the house on the lake knows people that make him feel "poor".

At the end of the day, I think the only people that really end up feeling rich are Warren Buffett and Bill Gates.

To feel better about oneself is not to interact with people who are much wealthier since comparison to others is unavoidable. We get on one of the boat tour of Lake Minnetonka once in a while, seeing all those big houses with servant quarters. I often came with a feeling that why would anyone need that kind house - what a waste of resources.

 

[Hamlet]

I think that there are a few important things that wealth buys in America-

1. Consistently delivered, top quality health care. People who are not wealthy sometimes get good health care but they often do not.
2. Top quality education. You get a very different educational experience in the rich zip codes than you do in the poor ones.
3. A completely different experience interacting with the legal system. I shudder at the idea of having to depend on a public defender for my defense. Does anyone think OJ would have walked if he had been using a public defender?
4. A different experience interacting with our political system. The truly wealthy have more access to our elected representatives, and influence them to a very large degree. The old Texas adage that "you dance with thems that brung ya" is very often true.

It occurs to me that defining rich in OUR society is difficult. It's only when we compare to the 3rd world that it becomes obvious how "rich" most Americans are. But, to compare to our fellow Americans, it gets much more difficult. I think the problem stems from the fact that (with the exception of the very lowest financial rung - those living in cardboard boxes under the overpass) all Americans have access to essentially all the same things (except for those few at the very, very top who can afford, say, a private jet of their own). Let me explain my point of view.

Even the poorest Americans (assuming they play the "game" - maybe stand in line at a gummint office, etc.) have enough food to eat (food stamps), a place to live (rent control, housing subsidies, etc.) and clothing (Walmart or Salvation Army - hey, don't knock it! Some of my finest Aloha shirts came from Salvation Army.) So, realistically, what in America, can the "rich" have that the "poor" can't have. I'm sure you can find a few things (but, saying 2 houses is a cheat - you can't live in two at once.)

I mentioned a personal jet. But, realistically, "poor" people in America fly. Maybe not as often, maybe not to as exotic destinations, but they do fly.

So, my point is that it actually IS very difficult to say what is "rich" and conversely, what is "poor" in the "Western world". The real distinctions, for the most part, between rich and poor are in quantity and quality. These may be difficult to define ("How many houses can you use?" or "Would you actually PREFER to fly to Vale for skiing or would a gambling junket to Vegas be more fun to you?") Your answers to these questions may reveal YOUR definition of rich, but not everyone's definition of rich.

But to be specific about my situation, the richest I ever felt was before we got kids in the mid '90's and my assets were growing so fast that my results exceeded my salary several years in a row. THAT felt rich.

 

[Koolau]

I think that there are a few important things that wealth buys in America-

1. Consistently delivered, top quality health care. People who are not wealthy sometimes get good health care but they often do not.
2. Top quality education. You get a very different educational experience in the rich zip codes than you do in the poor ones.
3. A completely different experience interacting with the legal system. I shudder at the idea of having to depend on a public defender for my defense. Does anyone think OJ would have walked if he had been using a public defender?
4. A different experience interacting with our political system. The truly wealthy have more access to our elected representatives, and influence them to a very large degree. The old Texas adage that "you dance with thems that brung ya" is very often true.

Your point is well stated and taken. What I was saying is that (with the possible exception of the under-bridge dwellers AND the uber-wealthy) all these are degrees of "more" or "better" - not "none" or "exclusive" in the USA. Lots of places in the world, only the wealthy (where everyone else is "poor") have any right to all these things. That's why it's difficult to define wealthy in the USA. Few of us are excluded from any of these things based on our wealth. However, your list could probably be used as a definition of "rich" in the USA.

 

[clifp]

Now, what I have never fully understood, is why we are not allowed to brag about our looks. Maybe because it's obvious to everyone who is gifted in that department, and who isn't, so why discuss it?

Amethyst

Hum, that hasn't stopped the two really good looking woman I dated nor the thousands I have wanted to but never did from telling many stories of how how their good looks have helped. I am pretty sure the stories of traffic tickets turned into warning, late assignments that teachers have accepted, free drinks scored, clubs waltzed into, undesirable work assignments avoided, bureaucratics bending rules, all because hot girl flash a winning smile and some skin are all ways of bragging about looks.

I am pretty sure that I have been the subject of a few of these stories myself.

My top two choices for being reincarnated are being a pampered house cat, or a hot girl.

 

[clifp]

Your point is well stated and taken. What I was saying is that (with the possible exception of the under-bridge dwellers AND the uber-wealthy) all these are degrees of "more" or "better" - not "none" or "exclusive" in the USA. Lots of places in the world, only the wealthy (where everyone else is "poor") have any right to all these things. That's why it's difficult to define wealthy in the USA. Few of us are excluded from any of these things based on our wealth. However, your list could probably be used as a definition of "rich" in the USA.

I agree and also point that there is rapidly diminishing benefit to higher priced "better" products. A $400-500 37" TV is not that much worse a viewing experience than $2K 60" TV, same thing with $400 computer vs $2K, a 20K Hyundai vs a $100K Mercedes, or flying coach vs 1st class, $10 vs $50 wine. The quality of most low end goods is pretty remarkable now days.

I'd argue that most of the status symbols, Rolls Royce, Rolex, $5000 50 year old wines, are actually worse than the top end of the luxury brands. For example I bet Lexus and Mercedes are actually better cars than a Rolls.

Finally, I'd argue that increasing importance of virtual goods is a great leveler. A poor kid with a used laptop and free wifi connection has the same access to all of the free information on internet, that I or Bill Gates has. Since young people by and large are pretty cavalier about paying for digital goods, this kid has the same access to books, games, movies, as a rich person. Gates and my money only buy the minor feeling of moral superiority of purchasing a digital object instead of stealing it.

 

[Amethyst]

But you don't really approve of their bragging, do you? [and I'm willing to bet those ladies didn't dare brag about their looks around other women - biiiiigg no-no taboo, that is]. Whereas, nobody tut-tuts at the people at work who can't stop bragging about their kid who is going to a prestigious college for free, thanks to scholarships. Which is just another way of saying, "WOW, what great DNA I passed on, and what a terrific job I did of nurturing it!"

Hum, that hasn't stopped the two really good looking woman I dated nor the thousands I have wanted to but never did from telling many stories of how how their good looks have helped. .

 

[clifp]

But you don't really approve of their bragging, do you? [and I'm willing to bet those ladies didn't dare brag about their looks around other women - biiiiigg no-no taboo, that is]. Whereas, nobody tut-tuts at the people at work who can't stop bragging about their kid who is going to a prestigious college for free, thanks to scholarships. Which is just another way of saying, "WOW, what great DNA I passed on, and what a terrific job I did of nurturing it!"

You are right about kids, bragging about them is fair game.

As far as woman bragging around other woman, I am no expert but I think there is a fair amount of subtle bragging. I remembered my 5' 9" 120 lb girlfriend complained about putting on 5 lb, the dagger-like looks from other woman in the office, made me think that they thought she was bragging.

I said in a rather loud voice, "you know Jackie somehow I doubt you are going to get a lot of sympathy about gaining 5 whole pounds" and everybody cracked up. This may explain why she dumped me a couple of months later...

 

[Amethyst]

No, the other women were actually annoyed with you for liking such an extraordinarily thin woman, but our society doesn't really allow women to attack men for such things, so they looked daggers at her, instead!

A.

As far as woman bragging around other woman, I am no expert but I think there is a fair amount of subtle bragging. I remembered my 5' 9" 120 lb girlfriend complained about putting on 5 lb, the dagger-like looks from other woman in the office, made me think that they thought she was bragging.

.

 

[Hamlet]

I think that this may be one of the causes of the rapid appreciation in the top end of many collectible markets.

The ultra-wealthy are reaching the point where there is nothing really useful to spend their money on, consumption-wise.

I agree and also point that there is rapidly diminishing benefit to higher priced "better" products. A $400-500 37" TV is not that much worse a viewing experience than $2K 60" TV, same thing with $400 computer vs $2K, a 20K Hyundai vs a $100K Mercedes, or flying coach vs 1st class, $10 vs $50 wine. The quality of most low end goods is pretty remarkable now days.

I'd argue that most of the status symbols, Rolls Royce, Rolex, $5000 50 year old wines, are actually worse than the top end of the luxury brands. For example I bet Lexus and Mercedes are actually better cars than a Rolls.

Finally, I'd argue that increasing importance of virtual goods is a great leveler. A poor kid with a used laptop and free wifi connection has the same access to all of the free information on internet, that I or Bill Gates has. Since young people by and large are pretty cavalier about paying for digital goods, this kid has the same access to books, games, movies, as a rich person. Gates and my money only buy the minor feeling of moral superiority of purchasing a digital object instead of stealing it.

 

[haha]

No, the other women were actually annoyed with you for liking such an extraordinarily thin woman, but our society doesn't really allow women to attack men for such things, so they looked daggers at her, instead!

A.

You'll have to admit that Clifp must be pretty cool to snag a 5'9" 120 # woman. Just walking down the street with her will improve his reputation in his 'hood, especially if she will take his arm and then lean over and kiss his cheek. I have good looking gf. I ask her to wear heels when she comes around, she improves my standing with my neighbors. I tried to get her to moan a little louder toward the same effect, but she said I don't rate that. It's even getting harder to get her to wear heels. She says she can't wear heels if I insist on taking buses instead of driving because the walking is too hard.

Ha

 

[obgyn65]

This quote is perfect. Thanks for sharing, W2R.

"My greatest skill in life has been to want but little” ― Henry David Thoreau, Walden

 

[rescueme]

This quote is perfect. Thanks for sharing, W2R.

Sorry, but I don't agree.

If one has the assets and desires that match (or in our case, assets that greatly exceed our desires), what is the harm done in "following your bliss"?

 

[Midpack]

Sorry, but I don't agree.

If one has the assets and desires that match (or in our case, assets that greatly exceed our desires), what is the harm done in "following your bliss"?

Bernie Madoff followed his bliss...so there may be exceptions.

I used to make bliss a priority, but in time I realized Thoreau was on to something. YMMV

 

[obgyn65]

No problem. This is America, it is ok to disagree.

Sorry, but I don't agree.