Crazy RE - Redfin CEO Tweetstorm

Tekward

Recycles dryer sheets
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Nov 18, 2006
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Crazy changes in RE. Thoughts on Redfin CEO insights?

1of 15: It has been hard to convey, through anecdotes or data, how bizarre the U.S. housing market has become. For example, a Bethesda, Maryland homebuyer working with @Redfin included in her written offer a pledge to name her first-born child after the seller. She lost.
2 of 15: There are now more Realtors than listings.
3 of 15: Inventory is down 37% year over year to a record low. The typical home sells in 17 days, a record low. Home prices are up a record amount, 24% year over year, to a record high. And still homes sell on average for 1.7% higher than the asking price, another record.
4 of 15: But in two of America’s largest cities, inventory has increased, in New York by 28%, in San Francisco by 77%. San Francisco hasn’t had an inventory increase this large since 2008. And still in both markets, prices are increasing.
5 of 15: In 2020, new-construction permits were down 13% in DC and New York, 40% in LA, 48% in Chicago, 50% in Seattle, 79% in San Francisco. Permits were up 25% in Miami, 56% in Vegas, 96% in Greenville, 122% in Detroit, 246% in Knoxville.
6 of 15: Lumber prices are up 300%.
7 of 15: In Redfin’s annual survey of nearly 2,000 homebuyers, 63% reported having bid on a home they hadn’t seen in person.
8 of 15: In an April survey of 600 Redfin.com users who had relocated in the past year, about two thirds of the people who moved got a house the same size or bigger, but about the same proportion, two thirds, spent the same or less on housing.
9 of 15: Even though most of the people who moved got a bigger home, 78% reported having the same or more disposable income after their move. Idaho home prices could triple and still seem affordable to a Californian.
10 of 15: For low-tax states, 4 people move in for every 1 who leaves. For Texas, this ratio is 5:1; for Florida, 7:1. Cites & states have no leverage to raise taxes, after many promised new money for social justice; the federal government will have to fund long-term investments.
11 of 15: This migration to lower-cost areas may lead to lower workforce participation. For many families @Redfin has relocated, the money saved on housing costs lets one parent stop working. A wave of Redfin customers are retiring early.
12 of 15: Lenders are calling employers to confirm that the homebuyer will have permission to work remotely when the pandemic ends. Rates are lower for loans on primary residences, and the lender also wants to make sure the borrower actually plans to work after getting the loan.
13 of 15: The average housing budget for out-of-towners moving to Nashville was $720K, ~50% higher than locals’ $485K budget. It used to be coastal elites who worried that every adult in the family had to win a career lottery, just to afford a home. Now that feeling may spread.
14 of 15: it’s not just income that’s k-shaped, but mobility. 90% of people earning $100,000+ per year expect to be able to work virtually, compared to 10% of those earning $40,000 or less per year. The folks who need low-cost housing the most have the least flexibility to move.
15 of 15: an investor recently said, with an ancient touch of awe but also greed, that one source of America’s miraculous economic recovery was the bounty of “the land itself.” We have more room to grow than we ever imagined. We just have to make sure that benefits everyone.
https://www.businessinsider.com/housing-market-covid-takeaways-redfin-ceo-2021-5?op=1

 
We were in Nashville a few months ago and couldn't help but noticed the explosive growth that was going on. I have never seen so many cranes...and this observation from a guy who watched Atlanta's epic growth over the years...but this part:

The average housing budget for out-of-towners moving to Nashville was $720K, ~50% higher than locals’ $485K budget.

The strange times keep on rolling on.
 
This is astounding. I have been searching for a place outside SoCal for over a year and now due to market issues looking at having to either keep working or totally reimagine my plans.

Talking to my friends who know RE well, the consensus is this isn’t a bubble either. Guess we’ll see.
 
Lumber yards better get some security to watch their product. Some may be using the five finger discount to get the product.
 
Yeah, I was trying to slip a couple of sheets of plywood under my shirt, but my recent weight loss tripped me up. My new t-shirts are too small.
 
Yeah, I was trying to slip a couple of sheets of plywood under my shirt, but my recent weight loss tripped me up. My new t-shirts are too small.
Then you must live in a box. And hurricane season starts June 1.
 
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Yeah, I was trying to slip a couple of sheets of plywood under my shirt, but my recent weight loss tripped me up. My new t-shirts are too small.
Have to wear your old, larger clothes for that. In college, a smaller classmate asked to borrow my jacket as we were leaving a reception. He came back to me outside and pulled a handle of vodka out from under my coat as he handed it back.
 
Have to wear your old, larger clothes for that. In college, a smaller classmate asked to borrow my jacket as we were leaving a reception. He came back to me outside and pulled a handle of vodka out from under my coat as he handed it back.
Used the tip jar to pay for drinks at a wedding reception.
 
One thing we're seeing is the realization that any place within an hour's drive of 500,000 people probably has all the restaurants, shopping, and cultural resources the average person needs. Unless someone is in a specialized line of work, it also likely to have jobs adequate to let the residents take advantage of those things.
 
Hmmm..now that work is becoming more virtual, people don't want to live in states that tax them to death and are seeking out lower tax states to live in.

Who would have ever guessed? :)

CA, NJ, NY, MI and other similar states could be in real trouble in terms of people moving out..I know we're looking hard to do so for the same reason - taxes on a decent house here are > $1,000 per MONTH. No thanks. That's an ER budget killer for sure.
 
We were in Nashville a few months ago and couldn't help but noticed the explosive growth that was going on. I have never seen so many cranes...and this observation from a guy who watched Atlanta's epic growth over the years...but this part:



The strange times keep on rolling on.

Flying into Atlanta airport to change planes last week, could not believe all the red clay torn up for brand new developments. Must have been 10 or more huge neighborhoods being built, with brand new roads visible from on high. Traffic is already unbearable there, isn't it?
 
CA, NJ, NY, MI and other similar states could be in real trouble in terms of people moving out..I know we're looking hard to do so for the same reason - taxes on a decent house here are > $1,000 per MONTH. No thanks. That's an ER budget killer for sure.

A lot depends on what the definition of "a decent house" is, but (ssshhhh) here in WV we're paying just over $1k a YEAR.:dance:

Now, I get a little bit of a break being over 65, but still....
 
A lot depends on what the definition of "a decent house" is, but (ssshhhh) here in WV we're paying just over $1k a YEAR.:dance:

Now, I get a little bit of a break being over 65, but still....

Wow - lucky you. My property taxes last year were over $9K ($9,600'ish IIRC). And what did we get for that? Snow removal and trash pickup. Oh, and we got to fund the local schools - even though we don't have kids.

By 'decent' house - I mean your typical 4BR subdivision house in a decent to nice neighborhood built in the past 20-25 years. Nothing super "fancy". Those are even more.

We'd love to downsize and move to a nice cabin in TN or similar, but like the article says..the housing market is absolutely bananas and we're unlikely to find anything like we'd ideally be looking for anytime soon..we do candidly feel a bit 'trapped' by it all at the moment and the one regret I have in my whole ER decision was not having the retirement house either built or purchased BEFORE we both ER'd..lot easier to do that when you have decent sized paychecks coming in.
 
Hmmm..now that work is becoming more virtual, people don't want to live in states that tax them to death and are seeking out lower tax states to live in.

Who would have ever guessed? :)

CA, NJ, NY, MI and other similar states could be in real trouble in terms of people moving out..I know we're looking hard to do so for the same reason - taxes on a decent house here are > $1,000 per MONTH. No thanks. That's an ER budget killer for sure.

Not sure why you put MI in the same category as the other three. While our Governor is made a name for herself nationally, our taxes are not bad at all. Certainly not in the league of the other three.

This article puts us closer to the middle of the pack.

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416

Plus, my personal opinion is that fresh water is going to become more and more valuable. Hail to the Great Lake State!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no MI fanboy, but my family is here and I find no problem living well in retirement here. FWIW, I just over $4K a year in taxes on my house which has a market value around $275K. A lot of that is our school district which is one of the better districts in the state.
 
Crazy changes in RE. Thoughts on Redfin CEO insights?

1of 15: It has been hard to convey, through anecdotes or data, how bizarre the U.S. housing market has become. For example, a Bethesda, Maryland homebuyer working with @Redfin included in her written offer a pledge to name her first-born child after the seller. She lost.
2 of 15: There are now more Realtors than listings.
3 of 15: Inventory is down 37% year over year to a record low. The typical home sells in 17 days, a record low. Home prices are up a record amount, 24% year over year, to a record high. And still homes sell on average for 1.7% higher than the asking price, another record.
4 of 15: But in two of America’s largest cities, inventory has increased, in New York by 28%, in San Francisco by 77%. San Francisco hasn’t had an inventory increase this large since 2008. And still in both markets, prices are increasing.
5 of 15: In 2020, new-construction permits were down 13% in DC and New York, 40% in LA, 48% in Chicago, 50% in Seattle, 79% in San Francisco. Permits were up 25% in Miami, 56% in Vegas, 96% in Greenville, 122% in Detroit, 246% in Knoxville.
6 of 15: Lumber prices are up 300%.
7 of 15: In Redfin’s annual survey of nearly 2,000 homebuyers, 63% reported having bid on a home they hadn’t seen in person.
8 of 15: In an April survey of 600 Redfin.com users who had relocated in the past year, about two thirds of the people who moved got a house the same size or bigger, but about the same proportion, two thirds, spent the same or less on housing.
9 of 15: Even though most of the people who moved got a bigger home, 78% reported having the same or more disposable income after their move. Idaho home prices could triple and still seem affordable to a Californian.
10 of 15: For low-tax states, 4 people move in for every 1 who leaves. For Texas, this ratio is 5:1; for Florida, 7:1. Cites & states have no leverage to raise taxes, after many promised new money for social justice; the federal government will have to fund long-term investments.
11 of 15: This migration to lower-cost areas may lead to lower workforce participation. For many families @Redfin has relocated, the money saved on housing costs lets one parent stop working. A wave of Redfin customers are retiring early.
12 of 15: Lenders are calling employers to confirm that the homebuyer will have permission to work remotely when the pandemic ends. Rates are lower for loans on primary residences, and the lender also wants to make sure the borrower actually plans to work after getting the loan.
13 of 15: The average housing budget for out-of-towners moving to Nashville was $720K, ~50% higher than locals’ $485K budget. It used to be coastal elites who worried that every adult in the family had to win a career lottery, just to afford a home. Now that feeling may spread.
14 of 15: it’s not just income that’s k-shaped, but mobility. 90% of people earning $100,000+ per year expect to be able to work virtually, compared to 10% of those earning $40,000 or less per year. The folks who need low-cost housing the most have the least flexibility to move.
15 of 15: an investor recently said, with an ancient touch of awe but also greed, that one source of America’s miraculous economic recovery was the bounty of “the land itself.” We have more room to grow than we ever imagined. We just have to make sure that benefits everyone.
https://www.businessinsider.com/housing-market-covid-takeaways-redfin-ceo-2021-5?op=1




Thanks for sharing these statistics. It was very interesting.
 
Not sure why you put MI in the same category as the other three. While our Governor is made a name for herself nationally, our taxes are not bad at all. Certainly not in the league of the other three.

This article puts us closer to the middle of the pack.

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416

Plus, my personal opinion is that fresh water is going to become more and more valuable. Hail to the Great Lake State!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no MI fanboy, but my family is here and I find no problem living well in retirement here. FWIW, I just over $4K a year in taxes on my house which has a market value around $275K. A lot of that is our school district which is one of the better districts in the state.

I put MI in the same list as the other high property tax states not just because of the tax RATE, but because of average total property taxes paid by homeowners which is largely dependent on what the house is valued by the State at -not what you paid for it or what you think it's currently worth.

A great example is California. On the list you referenced, CA is actually "less" than MI on RATE but as we all know, it's ridiculously high on "average" taxes actually paid - because many houses in CA are insanely expensive and valued as such by the state.

Regardless of what Wallethub and others may think, the average home VALUATION (tax base) in MI is a lot higher than in many other states. I have a good friend who lives in the Denver area in a nearly 5,000 sq ft house. (Why, I have no idea, but that's what she has). Her property taxes are in the $2K/yr range IIRC. Our house is considerably smaller than that and we're at ~$9K. Because it's not just the tax rate, but the "State Equalized Value" or valuation that also is a big part of determining total property taxes.

I think most would agree that $9K+ on a not that "fancy" of a house in INSANE, and a big impediment to ER. Sure, we could find another house (I personally prefer TN with it's incredibly low by comparison tax rates) but there just aren't any out there to buy that are even remotely close to what we'd be looking for in terms of privacy, floorplan, nearby amenities including good healthcare, parks & trails, etc. We've been looking for a whole lot of years now, even before the market going totally crazy as it's been in the past several months.
 
Not sure why you put MI in the same category as the other three. While our Governor is made a name for herself nationally, our taxes are not bad at all. Certainly not in the league of the other three.

This article puts us closer to the middle of the pack.

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416

Plus, my personal opinion is that fresh water is going to become more and more valuable. Hail to the Great Lake State!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no MI fanboy, but my family is here and I find no problem living well in retirement here. FWIW, I just over $4K a year in taxes on my house which has a market value around $275K. A lot of that is our school district which is one of the better districts in the state.
No wonder why people flock to parts of FL. A home valued at $280K and property taxes are $1.4K per year and no state income tax.
 
No wonder why people flock to parts of FL. A home valued at $280K and property taxes are $1.4K per year and no state income tax.



I’d like to know the FL county where taxes are 0.5% for a new purchase.

Bought several years ago, have a homestead and/or other exemptions, J can believe it.

I’m in one of the lowest property tax rate counties at ~1%. Broward was about 2% when I bailed, many others in broadly considered attractive places are similar.

Enlighten me, please. I like to move to a warmer part of the state in a few years
 
Hmmm..now that work is becoming more virtual, people don't want to live in states that tax them to death and are seeking out lower tax states to live in.

Who would have ever guessed? :)

CA, NJ, NY, MI and other similar states could be in real trouble in terms of people moving out..I know we're looking hard to do so for the same reason - taxes on a decent house here are > $1,000 per MONTH. No thanks. That's an ER budget killer for sure.


It depends on your budget. It is actually the lower income and middle income households moving out and they tend to not pay much in state taxes. Capitol Journal: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com); Wait, California Has Lower Middle-Class Taxes Than Texas? - Bloomberg
 
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I put MI in the same list as the other high property tax states not just because of the tax RATE, but because of average total property taxes paid by homeowners which is largely dependent on what the house is valued by the State at -not what you paid for it or what you think it's currently worth.

Not sure why you think that. In MI, what you paid for it or what you think it’s worth is exactly how the taxable value is determined. It is usually lower because there is a property tax amendment (Headlee Amendment) which limits increases in the taxable value. When I bought my house 5 years ago, the assessed value went up to exactly what I paid for the house. Taxable value is half of that number. If you don’t agree with your assessed value, you appeal it by showing market value appraisals. I’m not saying that makes things cheap, but that is how it’s done.

Now that I’ve been in my house for 5 years, I would never appeal my assessed value because I feel that I could already get more than the assessed value for my house.
 
I’d like to know the FL county where taxes are 0.5% for a new purchase.

Bought several years ago, have a homestead and/or other exemptions, J can believe it.

I’m in one of the lowest property tax rate counties at ~1%. Broward was about 2% when I bailed, many others in broadly considered attractive places are similar.

Enlighten me, please. I like to move to a warmer part of the state in a few years
Central FL parts of Orange and Osceola
Warmer parts of the state? You must be kidding unless you are referring to a few weeks in the winter in North FL.
 
Not sure why you think that. In MI, what you paid for it or what you think it’s worth is exactly how the taxable value is determined. It is usually lower because there is a property tax amendment (Headlee Amendment) which limits increases in the taxable value. When I bought my house 5 years ago, the assessed value went up to exactly what I paid for the house. Taxable value is half of that number. If you don’t agree with your assessed value, you appeal it by showing market value appraisals. I’m not saying that makes things cheap, but that is how it’s done.

Now that I’ve been in my house for 5 years, I would never appeal my assessed value because I feel that I could already get more than the assessed value for my house.

That's actually only partially right. Assessed value is determined by a massively complex set of rules (literally hundreds and hundreds of pages - I know, because I have a copy) that determine value NOT on what you paid for your house, what you think your house is worth, etc - but instead, literally, every last amenity and feature your house has. Have a garbage disposal? Cha-ching. (Seriously? I've paid for my garbage grinder about 10 times over already in the form of additional yearly taxes..on a GARBAGE. GRINDER). Granite? Cha-ching. Brick? Cha-ching. A pool (God help you if you do). SERIOUS Cha-ching - that alone adds $40K to your valuation, REGARDLESS of how much your pool is worth or what you paid for it. The list goes on..and on..and on..EVERY. SINGLE. AMENITY. you have adds valuation - and hence, tax. Double oven? Cha-ching. Built-ins? Cha-ching. A gable over your porch? Cha-ching. Bay window? Cha-ching. It's ENDLESS. Oh, and that doesn't get in to what "Class" they put your house in. That's in the SOLE OPINION of the Assessor. Oh, sure..they have guidelines. But you'd better be pretty nice to your Assessor or you could wind up in a higher class than would be ideal. And that alone will add tens if not hundreds of thousands to your base valuation if that happens.

We were seriously considering building a retirement home in MI but pulled back when I became INTIMATELY familiar - WAY too familiar, in fact - with how house valuations are set. And it TRULY has ZERO to do with what you paid for it, and EVERYTHING to do with what it is "in" your house in terms of amenties, square footage, materials used, etc. And if you think differently, good luck with the review process.

All that said, I stand by my earlier statement that MI Property Taxes are INSANE and some of the worst in the country.

All that said, you ARE absolutely correct on the limitations on INCREASES in annual value. But you're missing the key part, and that's how the BASE value is initially set. And that has everything to do with what's "in" your house, the materials you used to build it, etc and DIDDLY to do with what you paid for it, what you "think" it is worth, etc. Worse, if you (God help you), sell a "capped" house (like we have..20+ years in, so our increases have been limited), everything "resets" on the new house. And you start from scratch all over again with a significantly higher starting point. We literally just looked at a new house today. Much smaller than current house. Nicer lot. Our taxes would go up $4-5K annually from what we are currently paying, because we are 'capped' today on the existing house but wouldn't be once we sell and buy a new house.
 
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PS - our retirement house was going to be ~2,500 sq ft. We planned to make it "nice" (like, actually having a garbage grinder, LOL) but not exhorbitant. I worked very closely with the county assessor to make sure I wasn't getting myself into a situation where my taxes would be prohibitive. Best estimate was that my property taxes would be $12,000 - $14,000 per year on that simple, albeit "nice" 2,500 sq foot house.

That's not to say EVERY 2,500 sq ft house in MI has those property taxes. Far from it. But like I said..it depends on a lot of things include materials used to build, what's "in" the house, even the architecture of the house (believe it not..gables? Cha-ching. Bump-outs like a bay window? Cha-ching. Face brick? Cha-ching..the list goes on..and on..and on.

Like I said..MI property taxes are BRUTAL.
 
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