Expat Corner

[kcowan]

You live in two nice places that I’ve enjoyed visiting a number of times. I get the lifestyle benefits but, since you maintain two households, do you think you save money overall by being a snowbird in PVR? Obviously, your real estate outlay is higher but I wonder about everything else net of real estate.

back in 2003, we started spending more than our 3 weeks provided by our timeshare (fixed time, fixed unit) because we had just retired. So we rented additional time in Old Town. First an extra month and finally an extra 10 weeks. We also had a former workmate who had retired to Mexico in 1997. He had moved to Ajijic, then Manzanillo, PV and finally Mazatlan.

We worked with him to establish COL Comparisons to Vancouver. Utilities were easy but we got a comparative on food by comparing the weekly sales fliers from Safeway and Soriana.

We concluded that the savings were 60%! Everything like property taxes and insurance was included. This was in 2004 when the C$ was 7.1 pesos. The main things that provided savings were food and beverage (as well as services like haircuts and house painting). Internet, gasoline and technology were equal or more.

So we purchased in 2007. Our yearly savings were about 40% which included more eating out and outsourcing in Mexico. Of course the current exchange rates help a lot!

Now all that is BAU. With Covid-19, all bets are off. Given the choice, we would likely choose Mexico as our home base and travel in the summer. Most expats here do that. Mexico away from the oceans is quite cool and dry in the summer. But that normal mode may take a year or two. We are prepared to drive because we would treat each trip as a different adventure since we are retired.

This is the latest we have ever stayed in Mexico and, so far, the weather has been fine. We were also lucky to sell our first condo for 6 million pesos last July just 4 months after listing it.

Carrying our Vancouver penthouse costs $60k/yr so it is not trivial!

 

[projectmaximus]

Hi projectmaximus. I'm interested in this thread because I've spent a lot of time in Asia (mostly "Greater China"), all on a short-term basis (not with residency of any kind). Now I'm considering the question of where I can establish residency as a retiree. I've learned some Mandarin and prefer places where that's useful, but there are other considerations that may take precedence.

I'm curious to know what kind of visa arrangement you might be looking at in Taiwan. As noted in another thread ("List of countries offering retirement visas?"), most countries don't make it easy for retirees to settle there. If you're looking at other countries as well, that would be interesting to know.

Hi Hans, countries where Mandarin might prove useful pretty much means "Greater China" and maybe Singapore, though English feels much more prevalent there...but still you'd have plenty of opportunities for Mandarin practice if that's the goal.

I don't think there are any simple retirement visa options for any of those places unfortunately. Malaysia, Philippines, and Thailand are the places I believe offer some sort of option. And actually Mandarin is fairly useful throughout Malaysia, although again English will be more prevalent. But the MM2H program in Malaysia has some weaknesses...the application process is slow and murky, the required deposit is fairly substantial, and the rights it provides are not as robust as an actual residency (this has been made clear during the covid-19 crisis when Malaysia closed its borders to mm2h holders who happened to be outside the country).

Re: our Taiwan plans, I'm planning to apply for the Gold Card, which is their relatively new visa option for attracting "talent" without any ties to an employer. It may be an option for you, however it only comes with a 3-year term at best. And while it hasn't been around long enough for anyone to report on the renewal process, it is expected that they will be looking to see your contributions to the local economy/community during your first stint. My wife and I are in our mid-30s so we're still open to growing our businesses or starting new business there...but even if we just lounge around for 3 years and don't renew that would be ok too

 

[JakeinChina]

For Mainland China, the only long term visa options are thru your employer, or if your wife is a Mainland China citizen. There is no retirement visa option or anything even close to that.

 

[Markola]

back in 2003, we started spending more than our 3 weeks provided by our timeshare (fixed time, fixed unit) because we had just retired. So we rented additional time in Old Town.

Thanks for the reply. 2003 was approximately the first time we visited Sayulita. Good memories there.

 

[martyp]

I am retired in Thailand. It is fairly easy to come to Thailand for long term stay for anyone over 50 years old. There are a variety of visas to enter but the goal is to get 1 year extensions of whatever visa you arrived with. Every year you apply for another 1 year extension and you can do this indefinitely. There is a nonimmigrant O visa and a nonimmigrant O-A visa and you specify whether you are staying for reason of retirement or marriage to a Thai. There are different financial requirements and a slightly different process depending on how you do this. The best thing is to join the Thai visa advice Facebook group for accurate information.

I recently viewed a YouTube video about retiring to various different inexpensive countries. The rules in Thailand seem to be similar to these other countries. One thing to note about Thailand, there is no option for me, as a retiree who has never worked here and paid taxes, to get permanent residency much less citizenship.

 

[JakeinChina]

I am retired in Thailand. It is fairly easy to come to Thailand for long term stay for anyone over 50 years old. There are a variety of visas to enter but the goal is to get 1 year extensions of whatever visa you arrived with. Every year you apply for another 1 year extension and you can do this indefinitely. There is a nonimmigrant O visa and a nonimmigrant O-A visa and you specify whether you are staying for reason of retirement or marriage to a Thai. There are different financial requirements and a slightly different process depending on how you do this. The best thing is to join the Thai visa advice Facebook group for accurate information.

I recently viewed a YouTube video about retiring to various different inexpensive countries. The rules in Thailand seem to be similar to these other countries. One thing to note about Thailand, there is no option for me, as a retiree who has never worked here and paid taxes, to get permanent residency much less citizenship.

I've heard from a lawyer friend of mine who is an expat and have lived in Thailand for about 15 years, he said the country is becoming very anti-foreigner. Part of this is the locals look on foreigners and Covid-19, but he also said even before the virus there was a big shift by the government on not being so welcoming to foreigners wanting to live in Thailand.

I did also hear the Thai economy is really suffering since so much of it is based on tourism. I wonder how this effects the everyday life of expats now in Thailand.

 

[martyp]

I've heard from a lawyer friend of mine who is an expat and have lived in Thailand for about 15 years, he said the country is becoming very anti-foreigner. Part of this is the locals look on foreigners and Covid-19, but he also said even before the virus there was a big shift by the government on not being so welcoming to foreigners wanting to live in Thailand.

I did also hear the Thai economy is really suffering since so much of it is based on tourism. I wonder how this effects the everyday life of expats now in Thailand.

For many old timers like your friend my understanding is that Thailand has indeed changed over the years. I get the impression that 15 years ago that anyone could come, anything goes, and everything was cheap. I've only been visiting and living here for the past 4 years. My perspective is that Thailand isn't so much anti-foreigner but that they are becoming more like the rest of the world. Many of the changes people don't like were existing immigration laws that were not enforced before and are now being enforced. If you are an American concerned about immigration then you certainly can't fault Thailand from enforcing their laws. My experience starts in 2016 so that is my baseline for normal.

I heard a good comment from an Australian that said Thailand is easy to get into but once here Immigration keeps a close eye on you (at least now they do). Australia (and I would say the US) make if difficult for foreigners to come and live but once you get in Immigration doesn't follow up on you much.

Thailand is still relatively inexpensive to live in. I have personal experience with that. However, if you've been here for decades then you will have been hit with a punishing exchange rate change. Particularly for those from the UK who have lost 50% of their purchasing power over the years. You really have to have solid financial resources which is something those of us in the ER community are very familiar with.

My own personal experience, living in the big city (Bangkok) and married to a Thai from the countryside (Isaan) is that I feel completely welcome here. Are there some jarring cultural differences sometimes? Sure. Are there bad Thais? Sure. I can definitely see, looking back at the US today, that the political and cultural atmosphere there is something I want to stay as far away from as I can. I am so glad I am riding out Covid here.

Overall, the Thai economy is suffering as much as anyplace in the world that has shut down their economy due to Covid. Tourism here is down like everywhere in the world. Prior to Covid the Thai economy was stagnant. People tell me about the good times 10 years ago. My wife's family are mostly farmers and the local Isaan economy is still slow but everyone seems to be getting along relatively OK. I am retired on an pension income and Social Security so I am little influenced by economic conditions other than the usual faced by retirees.

 

[Hans]

But the MM2H program in Malaysia has some weaknesses...the application process is slow and murky, the required deposit is fairly substantial, and the rights it provides are not as robust as an actual residency (this has been made clear during the covid-19 crisis when Malaysia closed its borders to mm2h holders who happened to be outside the country).

I can concur on the Malaysia MM2H murkiness. I inquired via an immigration consultancy in KL. Many bizarre "gotchas". One is that they require you to show a fairly high current income (even if over 50), meaning it's better if you're still working when you apply, or have a fat pension (which few Americans do). I tried to see if they'd count IRA distributions as income (since the IRS does), but they didn't seem to know what I was talking about, then gave me the opinion that it should work, although I'm not sure they understood that it's not a pension (and therefore it could get rejected after going through enormous effort to apply). They also require that bank statements show the currency, which is something American banks don't do. And they require certain bank letters with specific content and wording that US banks won't write because they have their own standard letter formats which don't meet Malaysian immigration requirements. So then the only option is to go through enormous effort to collect all the forms, statements, letters, etc., and hope they let the non-conformant stuff slide. Not exactly promising.

I got the impression that Americans are an unfamiliar animal to them.

The thing about never getting actual residency puts another cloud over the whole thing. If they don't allow MM2H holders to go "home" during Covid, then they should take the "H" out of "MM2H".

Re: our Taiwan plans, I'm planning to apply for the Gold Card, which is their relatively new visa option for attracting "talent" without any ties to an employer. It may be an option for you,

I hope it works for you. Please post if you get it. The chances for me are probably zero. I applied for the HK equivalent (QMAS visa) several years ago and was turned down, probably because my professional experience was already stale by over a decade. Now, I'm even more stale. Also, I don't want to come out of retirement, so I probably don't have a path to 5-year residency leading to permanent status in Taiwan.

It seems the options for an already-retired person to retire permanently in Asia are pretty slim (something not revealed in the click-bait "great places to retire" articles).

I've heard from a lawyer friend of mine who is an expat and have lived in Thailand for about 15 years, he said the country is becoming very anti-foreigner.

I don't know about government policies, but my sense of Thailand was that day-to-day life is not as foreigner-friendly as what I found in Mainland China (pre-Olympic) and Taiwan (later). I got a sense that most foreigners in Thailand don't have local friends, whereas not having local friends would be strange in China/Taiwan (when I was there). And then there's the tipping double-standard (foreigners seem to be expected to tip even when it's not the custom among locals). I had a vague sense that foreigners in Thailand were seen as "wallets to be drained"... or maybe I hung out in the wrong neighborhoods!

 

[martyp]

It seems the options for an already-retired person to retire permanently in Asia are pretty slim (something not revealed in the click-bait "great places to retire" articles).

I don't know about government policies, but my sense of Thailand was that day-to-day life is not as foreigner-friendly as what I found in Mainland China (pre-Olympic) and Taiwan (later). I got a sense that most foreigners in Thailand don't have local friends, whereas not having local friends would be strange in China/Taiwan (when I was there). And then there's the tipping double-standard (foreigners seem to be expected to tip even when it's not the custom among locals). I had a vague sense that foreigners in Thailand were seen as "wallets to be drained"... or maybe I hung out in the wrong neighborhoods!

I am an already retired person that moved to Thailand in 2017. Every country has immigration hurdles. Thailand is no exception. I found it pretty easy to get here and stay. You do have to have and show some financial resources.

I have found Thais to be very friendly and there is no cultural issues with making friends. There may be language barriers. It, of course, depends on who you hang out with. Until Covid I went out salsa dancing every week. It is a crowd I am familiar with in the US and there is no problem making friends anywhere where you would normally make friends.

I've never encountered any tipping standard. You tip 20-100 baht depending on the circumstances and often nothing. It is not much expected. Nothing as draconian as in the US.

Are westerners looked at as "wallets"? Well, again, that depends on who you hang out with. Westerners and Thais know that the exchange rates are favorable to westerners. It is, in most cases, cheaper to live here. So act accordingly.

 

[Hans]

I am an already retired person that moved to Thailand in 2017. Every country has immigration hurdles. Thailand is no exception. I found it pretty easy to get here and stay.

Understood. I get that it's easier to stay long-term in Thailand than some other places. However, I'm concerned about your earlier comment, that permanent residency is not an option for you. If I retire somewhere, I'd want it to be permanent. So I need to make sure that when I'm old and disabled, I don't get kicked out and have to move someplace that isn't home anymore. That could be difficult for me to do at 88, or 92, when I might not be able to walk anymore, or tolerate outings of more than a few hours at a time.

If that's not the deal, then I'm really just a tourist.

You do have to have and show some financial resources.

I hope it means only assets, and not substantial income (unlike Malaysia, which requires both).

I have found Thais to be very friendly and there is no cultural issues with making friends. There may be language barriers. It, of course, depends on who you hang out with. Until Covid I went out salsa dancing every week. It is a crowd I am familiar with in the US and there is no problem making friends anywhere where you would normally make friends.

I went to some social functions (Meetup groups, a local theater interest group, an improv practice group, etc.) in Chiang Mai and noticed that there were only foreigners and no Thais. In China and Taiwan, those kinds of functions were always attended by some mix of foreigners and locals. So I wasn't seeing a way to make local friends through my usual activities (or through foreign friends, as the foreigners I knew didn't seem to have local friends).

In Pattaya, I noticed that at dinnertime, I'd see foreigners by themselves or with other foreigners, and no local/foreigner mixed groups (other than a foreign guy with a local lady, as that's a thing there).

I don't have experience with Bangkok.

I've never encountered any tipping standard. You tip 20-100 baht depending on the circumstances and often nothing. It is not much expected. Nothing as draconian as in the US.

The fact that you'd tip at all is interesting, because all the info I've found says tipping is not customary among locals in Thailand. In China/Taiwan, I found that neither locals nor foreigners tip anywhere nor are expected to (other than parts of Shenzhen where they try to trick people).

In Pattaya, there are foot massage places where the staff gets pushy about tips (this is why I speculated "wrong neighborhood"...).

It is, in most cases, cheaper to live here. So act accordingly.

"Act accordingly" is kind of subjective. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" worked just fine for me in most places (e.g., China/Taiwan, as I mentioned), but in Thailand, it turned out to be an issue sometimes if a foreigner acts different from locals (which is why I said "double standard"). It's only in Thailand where I experienced that.

I can accept that Thailand is different from some other places (or so I have found). It is what it is. I just want to report accurately on my experiences.

Cheers.

 

[Puravida1]

Hello from Malta. Retired here two years ago from the SF Bay area. We are already EU citizens so that helps. Advantages are Mediterranean Climate, British culture, legal system and English is an official language. European quality healthcare. Italy is so close as to be visible across the sea on a clear day. There is really no crime to speak of and though people dont have much there is no poverty like in California. People often dont bother locking their cars or houses. The police are unarmed and mostly there isn't much law enforcement of anything - you are more governed by respectability and what the consensus is of what you the right thing to do is rather than any law. The people are super friendly. On the downside the Islands are really small, property is quite expensive and the local politics kind of suck, but it isnt hard to get off the island and go to Sicily which is a great place to visit. That said it takes a certain kind of attitude to deal with the small frustrations of life and I think very few of my US friends would be able to take it.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Hello from Malta. Retired here two years ago from the SF Bay area. We are already EU citizens so that helps. Advantages are Mediterranean Climate, British culture, legal system and English is an official language. European quality healthcare. Italy is so close as to be visible across the sea on a clear day. There is really no crime to speak of and though people dont have much there is no poverty like in California. People often dont bother locking their cars or houses. The police are unarmed and mostly there isn't much law enforcement of anything - you are more governed by respectability and what the consensus is of what you the right thing to do is rather than any law. The people are super friendly. On the downside the Islands are really small, property is quite expensive and the local politics kind of suck, but it isnt hard to get off the island and go to Sicily which is a great place to visit. That said it takes a certain kind of attitude to deal with the small frustrations of life and I think very few of my US friends would be able to take it.

I became a Maltese citizen last year based on my Maternal history. My wife is not but it would be easy based on my Citizenship. I had No problems at all becoming a Citizen. Currently live in the US and would consider moving from here if things get worse. I have lots of family there. But I may be too old to adjust to the change.

My Father went to school in Gozo. That may be too remote for me.

 

[projectmaximus]

I can concur on the Malaysia MM2H murkiness. I inquired via an immigration consultancy in KL. Many bizarre "gotchas". One is that they require you to show a fairly high current income (even if over 50), meaning it's better if you're still working when you apply, or have a fat pension (which few Americans do). I tried to see if they'd count IRA distributions as income (since the IRS does), but they didn't seem to know what I was talking about, then gave me the opinion that it should work, although I'm not sure they understood that it's not a pension (and therefore it could get rejected after going through enormous effort to apply). They also require that bank statements show the currency, which is something American banks don't do. And they require certain bank letters with specific content and wording that US banks won't write because they have their own standard letter formats which don't meet Malaysian immigration requirements. So then the only option is to go through enormous effort to collect all the forms, statements, letters, etc., and hope they let the non-conformant stuff slide. Not exactly promising.

I got the impression that Americans are an unfamiliar animal to them.

The thing about never getting actual residency puts another cloud over the whole thing. If they don't allow MM2H holders to go "home" during Covid, then they should take the "H" out of "MM2H".

I feel like Malaysia may be the best option you have. Which company/agent did you contact? I'd suggest reaching out to Alter Domus, they seem to have the most experience and come extremely highly recommended in the facebook groups I am in. Also suggest you join those groups if you are not already. There's an MM2H specific group, and then various expat groups for each geographic region in Malaysia. Lots of folks with tons of experience to share.

The income requirement in Malaysia is quite reasonable imo. It is approx 2500 USD per month for a single person. Perhaps an even better option for you is the mm2h for the Eastern Malaysia state of Sarawak. They operate their own separate mm2h program specifically for 50+ age group and their requirements are lower. About 1750 USD/month income and the fixed deposit is only $25k for a single person as opposed to $75k.

https://www.sarawak.gov.my/web/home/article_view/221/279/

Basic pros and cons with the Sarawak program:

Pros - you have lower requirements and it still allows you to live anywhere in Malaysia.
Cons - application process is a little bit more tedious (no authorized agents for hire) so you actually have to secure someone local to sponsor you. Again, there's a fellow in the facebook group who has shared extensively on how he did this.

The program is expected to introduce some changes in the future which would affect both of those items...their may be requirements that encourage/force you to have more actual presence in Sarawak and they may allow for licensed agents to sponsor. If you have to settle in Sarawak, Kuching and Miri would be places to consider with large Chinese populations. (Note I've never been to Sarawak)

And fyi when I said the mm2h application process was slow and murky, my emphasis was on slow. The murkiness mainly refers to the timeline and lack of clarity with it. In the fb groups people have been reporting waiting over a year now for their approvals, although the govt states waiting times around 4 months. It seems most people are eventually getting their approvals, and it just suddenly pops up out of nowhere. So just an uncertainty with when exactly to expect access, especially since it is recommended to NOT be in the country while awaiting approval.

I hope it works for you. Please post if you get it. The chances for me are probably zero. I applied for the HK equivalent (QMAS visa) several years ago and was turned down, probably because my professional experience was already stale by over a decade. Now, I'm even more stale. Also, I don't want to come out of retirement, so I probably don't have a path to 5-year residency leading to permanent status in Taiwan.

Sure I will. Not planning to move to Taiwan until Q4 of 2021 so won't apply until mid-2021 or so. I did research on the QMAS cause a year ago we were still considering HK as an option. I believe the Taiwan Gold Card is much easier to obtain. There is no cap on the number issued so it's not really "competitive" the way QMAS is. Taiwan is trying to get as many Gold Card holders as possible.

That said, I agree it is probably not your best option. There's an extensive gold card thread on forumosa and included a retired person trying to apply based on his work salary from over a decade prior. So it might be possible for you as well...however it would really only serve for 3 years and I'd assume you would have no chance to renew after that.

It seems the options for an already-retired person to retire permanently in Asia are pretty slim (something not revealed in the click-bait "great places to retire" articles).

Yeah for the most part they seem to apply to folks who are just in a phase (1-3 years) rather than someone seeking a permanent place to settle for good.

Hello from Malta. Retired here two years ago from the SF Bay area. We are already EU citizens so that helps. Advantages are Mediterranean Climate, British culture, legal system and English is an official language. European quality healthcare. Italy is so close as to be visible across the sea on a clear day. There is really no crime to speak of and though people dont have much there is no poverty like in California. People often dont bother locking their cars or houses. The police are unarmed and mostly there isn't much law enforcement of anything - you are more governed by respectability and what the consensus is of what you the right thing to do is rather than any law. The people are super friendly. On the downside the Islands are really small, property is quite expensive and the local politics kind of suck, but it isnt hard to get off the island and go to Sicily which is a great place to visit. That said it takes a certain kind of attitude to deal with the small frustrations of life and I think very few of my US friends would be able to take it.

Thanks for reporting in from Malta! It does seem like a great place for westerners if they want to settle in a warm climate in the EU. Is it expensive to buy property or to rent property...or both?

 

[Puravida1]

That Maltese passport is useful to have and gives you a good option in the future if you decide to move to Europe. Its definitely not for everyone. I am also living in Gozo.

Property is really expensive in Malta especially for what you get. The quality of construction is quite poor and you have to have a kind of laid back attitude to getting any work done. Relatively simple projects take years to complete and you have to have endless patience. A Kitchen remodel might take a couple of years. This is because the workers are so busy. They all work really hard unlike many other Mediterranean places.
The houses have no insulation but its not that cold in winter and you can always put on a sweater. You cannot let anything bother you like it does in the US. Rent is also expensive since there is a lot of work in Malta and the unemployment is really low for young people in tourism and IT. It costs as much as most places in the US and more than many places. You will get a much better deal in Italy, France or Spain but will have to learn a language there. It is an advantage to know Maltese but its really difficult to learn and even a lot of Maltese are bad at it. Nearly everyone speaks good English though and all legal and business stuff is through English. They even have blue lights outside police stations and red pillarboxes like in England. Its too hot for a few months in the summer but Europe is at your doorstep and summers there are wonderful.

 

[kcowan]

Thanks for the reply. 2003 was approximately the first time we visited Sayulita. Good memories there.

I notice the thread is veering towards discussions on permanent residency. We had of 4-year visas run out when Mexico introduced new laws so we went permanent. It required a letter in Spanish indicating that we each had $3300/mo in income. And a copy of a investments showing earnings. We carefully tailored what we provided to show just above the minimum income. It was on bank letterhead because we are all electronic.

 

[projectmaximus]

That Maltese passport is useful to have and gives you a good option in the future if you decide to move to Europe. Its definitely not for everyone. I am also living in Gozo.

Did you guys consider anywhere else before deciding on Malta? Do you think you will remain there forever?

I notice the thread is veering towards discussions on permanent residency. We had of 4-year visas run out when Mexico introduced new laws so we went permanent. It required a letter in Spanish indicating that we each had $3300/mo in income. And a copy of a investments showing earnings. We carefully tailored what we provided to show just above the minimum income. It was on bank letterhead because we are all electronic.

Nice congrats. Has there been a tangible benefit for you since gaining permanent residency status? And do you plan to continue as part-timers there for the rest of your lives?

 

[ShokWaveRider]

I notice the thread is veering towards discussions on permanent residency. We had of 4-year visas run out when Mexico introduced new laws so we went permanent. It required a letter in Spanish indicating that we each had $3300/mo in income. And a copy of a investments showing earnings. We carefully tailored what we provided to show just above the minimum income. It was on bank letterhead because we are all electronic.

I think you could also have gone with a lump sum of $126k US in an overseas bank account PP.

 

[Hans]

Hi projectmaximus. Thanks for your detailed response.

I feel like Malaysia may be the best option you have. Which company/agent did you contact?

As I recall, the consultancy was called JoyStay. I had been checking on various resources and discussion groups, and they were highly recommended (5 years ago).

The income requirement in Malaysia is quite reasonable imo. It is approx 2500 USD per month for a single person. Perhaps an even better option for you is the mm2h for the Eastern Malaysia state of Sarawak. They operate their own separate mm2h program specifically for 50+ age group and their requirements are lower. About 1750 USD/month income and the fixed deposit is only $25k for a single person as opposed to $75k.

I suppose that's reasonable for a person still working. As a "Life after FIRE" person, I'm no longer working, and financially independent based on assets, not income. I'm convinced that MM2H is not for people in that category (e.g., I don't think the immigration department is interested in hearing my ideas about "safe withdrawal rates").

There are ways I could contrive income, but it would have adverse financial consequences (higher tax bracket, reduced Obamacare subsidy, etc.). That would cost me thousands. Add to that the fact that I'd be going with the consultant's "opinion" about whether it would work, and then taking the risk that the immigration department would decline the application (as I'd have nothing in writing in advance that my situation is acceptable). This combination of cost and murkiness is a significant deterrent.

And fyi when I said the mm2h application process was slow and murky, my emphasis was on slow.

My emphasis was on murky. I have time, but I don't have much tolerance for large expenditures of time and money without assurance that it won't go to waste. To me, financial independence necessarily involves not throwing money away.

The kinds of murkiness I mentioned were only the ones I could remember off the top of my head. In the end, I decided not to do it. I could reopen my decision, but, at a minimum, I'd need clarification that the questions I ran into (about contrivances of income, format of bank statements/letters, and other stuff) can be answered, and not by the opinions of consultants or anecdotes of other applicants, but by official criteria from the immigration department. Aside from the income issue, the bank documents I can obtain don't even meet the official rules (which I think are skewed against American applicants, e.g., the currency issue I noted). If some applicants got past the official rules, it's not a guarantee that I will.

Just sharing my experience and perspective... as in all things immigration, your mileage may vary!

There's an extensive gold card thread on forumosa and included a retired person trying to apply based on his work salary from over a decade prior.

I'd be interested to know if he got the Taiwan gold card. My experience is closer to 20 years old, so I'd be a bit more of a long-shot.

So it might be possible for you as well...however it would really only serve for 3 years and I'd assume you would have no chance to renew after that.

I guess it's a dead end for a person not planning to work or do business.

 

[martyp]

However, I'm concerned about your earlier comment, that permanent residency is not an option for you. If I retire somewhere, I'd want it to be permanent.

If that's not the deal, then I'm really just a tourist.

Yes. Permanent residency is a no-go here

I hope it means only assets, and not substantial income (unlike Malaysia, which requires both).

Actually you don't need any income. I do have to park 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account. Technically, the account has to have 800k 2 months before and 3 months after each 1 year of stay application and 400k minimum the other 7 months of the year. I just leave the 800k there all year long and don't touch it.

I went to some social functions (Meetup groups, a local theater interest group, an improv practice group, etc.) in Chiang Mai and noticed that there were only foreigners and no Thais. In China and Taiwan, those kinds of functions were always attended by some mix of foreigners and locals. So I wasn't seeing a way to make local friends through my usual activities (or through foreign friends, as the foreigners I knew didn't seem to have local friends).

Interesting. My experience in Thailand: I went to a theater performance of "Whose Afraid of Virginia Wolf". It was an english language performance. 60 people attending, all foreigners. When I go to classical music concerts it is attended by hundreds of people the large majority of which are Thais. When I go salsa dancing the women are Thai and the men are foreigners.

In Pattaya, I noticed that at dinnertime, I'd see foreigners by themselves or with other foreigners, and no local/foreigner mixed groups (other than a foreign guy with a local lady, as that's a thing there).

You just can't judge Thailand by looking at Pattaya or the southern resort islands. Even I feel surrounded by foreigners in those places. They are for short vacations only.

The fact that you'd tip at all is interesting, because all the info I've found says tipping is not customary among locals in Thailand. In China/Taiwan, I found that neither locals nor foreigners tip anywhere nor are expected to (other than parts of Shenzhen where they try to trick people).

Tipping is not required but appreciated. 20 baht at restaurants. Maybe more for food delivery because during Covid times are hard.

in Thailand, it turned out to be an issue sometimes if a foreigner acts different from locals (which is why I said "double standard"). It's only in Thailand where I experienced that.

The main place you find a "double standard" is dual pricing at tourist locations and national parks. Some expats get incensed over this. It doesn't bother me at all. All these places are still less expensive than similar places in the US and i think it is great that Thailand makes it's cultural and national resources affordable to poor Thais.

 

[kcowan]

...Nice congrats. Has there been a tangible benefit for you since gaining permanent residency status? And do you plan to continue as part-timers there for the rest of your lives?

Yes we were able to claim primary residence exemption on the sale of our first condo.

We bought the new condo with a view to make it permanent and then use Airbnb for our trips back to Vancouver.

 

[candrew]

I notice the thread is veering towards discussions on permanent residency. We had of 4-year visas run out when Mexico introduced new laws so we went permanent. It required a letter in Spanish indicating that we each had $3300/mo in income. And a copy of a investments showing earnings. We carefully tailored what we provided to show just above the minimum income. It was on bank letterhead because we are all electronic.

In early March, DW & I began our Mexican permanent residency application at the local consulate in Phoenix. If a foreigner is applying for permanent residency, there are actually two different methods:

1. Statements as proof of investments or statements of bank accounts with a monthly average balance equivalent to twenty thousand days of general minimum wage in Mexico (123.22 MXP for 2020), approximately $130,000 USD for the past twelve months (considering a rate of exchange of 19 pesos per US dollar).

OR

2. Documents showing that the applicant has a pension (free of liens) greater than the equivalent of five hundred days of general minimum wage in Mexico (123.22 MXP for 2020), approximately $3,250 USD for the past six months (considering a rate of exchange of 19 pesos per US dollar).

DW & I made the decision to apply separately for permanente under the requirements in #1 so that we wouldn't have to produce an apostilled marriage certificate. The only hitch for us now is if the virus will let us return to Mexico prior to September so we can complete the process at an INM office! If not, we have to start over.

 

[Puravida1]

We looked at a few places over the years. My last job was in a health insurance company in california and I knew it would be a lot easier to retire abroad if I was going to do it before medicare kicks in. I became very aware of how expensive healthcare can be in the US. We looked at Canada and also Mexico/Costa Rica/Panama. Over the years we realized that we did not want to live in any kind expat compound but be more integrated with the locals. But we dont speak any language other than English. Also I did not want to live anywhere where people have bars on the windows. We like travelling in Europe a lot and also didn't want to give up the California Weather. So English Speaking, In Europe, Mediterranean climate - that really narrowed it down. So we visited Malta and didnt like it - too noisy, crowded and too much construction. This is how it is with a lot of retire overseas places. They look great on paper and you get all excited, but then you go there on a trip and in a day you think - no way, what was I thinking. We went over to the smaller Island, Gozo, and it was perfect and we bought a farmhouse a week later. We just knew it was right for us. Sounds like a leap in the dark but it really wasnt.

Malta is also quite good on the tax side. You are still going to pay the same US taxes no matter where you are, but the other country often takes another bite. Malta doesnt. Its also a modern EU country which reduces the risk a lot.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Is everything available easily on Gozo? How long is the Ferry to the main Island?

 

[jim584672]

I read Malta will give 10 year residency permits to Brits who move there prior to the end of the year. Brexit is killing free movement at the end of the year.

 

[Puravida1]

Gozo vrs Malta is like living in a town near a big city. You can get everything in Gozo but Malta has a lot more choices. Lots of Maltese chain stores have outlets in Gozo.

The ferry is easy - 25 mins each way and goes every 30-45 mins. They are quite big and take a few hundred cars, big trucks and about a thousand people. They run 24 hours a day though there are less at night. Also if youre over 60 they are free. They are cheaper if you live on Gozo than if you live in Malta.

Brits also get the 10 year residency in future years but its not backed by the EU treaty - only a legal difference. Brits also get free healthcare. The rest of us buy private insurance which costs from 500 to 2500 for a couple for a year depending on if you want health care that covers worldwide(Except US) or just Malta. I pay 15 euro to see a London educated doctor though the Maltese say I should only pay 10. A visit lasts 45 mins and is not rushed. And the Doctors do house calls if youre sick. Very different than California. More than half the Expats here are British so they tend to dominate the expat scene especially in Gozo.