Expat Corner

[Bryan Barnfellow]

Projectmaximus, thanks for starting this thread. It's nice to have a little piece of real estate in the ER.org space just for our specific concerns.

I moved from the US to Switzerland 11 years ago for a very interesting job. My wife and I knew I was getting near the end of our plan for FIRE. After six years I pulled the ripcord and we decided we really liked it here and so stayed on and were able to get permanent residence.

It's not easy to get even a one year work permit in Switzerland if you are not EU (Switzerland is not in the EU but has a lot of cross border agreements, including free movement of labor with the EU); your employer has to demonstrate that they could not find (among applicants) someone as qualified as you among Swiss nationals or EU citizens.

Much harder to get permanent residence. It normally requires 10 years residence on a lower work/residence permit plus a certain level of competency in the national language used in your canton. There are four national languages: German, French, Italian, and Romansh. You also need to show that either through your job or your own resources if retiring that you have at least the national minimum for your size of family (single, couple, #children). Also, background checks with various certifications. It's virtually impossible to just move here to retire. You have to have moved up from a lower permit after a suitable amount of time, and the lower permit is always tied to a job. Some cantons (cantons are similar to states in the US) have special schemes for the super rich to retire directly here. Needless to say, my wife and I did NOT qualify.

It's a slog. But the quality of life is worth it and Switzerland's location in the center of Europe is great for travel. It's an efficiently run, modern country with little crime and first rate services. Health care is universal (mandatory for all residents) but you pay for it yourself, like with Obamacare, even when working. It's rare for the employer to pay, unless it is done to attract and keep highly specialized talent (IT, Fintech, Pharma, precision manufacturing, like that). BTW, Switzerland is about 30% expat! Highest in Europe and mostly highly skilled immigrants needed for the economy. The health care is excellent and the government will subsidize you if you start to have trouble paying the full bill. But it stays your policy all your life and so you can choose to retire without worries about health care.

My biggest issue is the currency exchange rate. The Swiss franc is considered to be overvalued by as much as 30%. This is great when spending Swiss francs in other countries. However, we derive about 93% of our income from dollar-based assets, which are vulnerable to swings in the FX rate. Long term the prospects for the US dollar generally lean toward less as opposed to more strength. This makes keeping a well thought out plan B ready in the box for possible eventual use.

-BB

 

[projectmaximus]

We looked at a few places over the years. My last job was in a health insurance company in california and I knew it would be a lot easier to retire abroad if I was going to do it before medicare kicks in.

Thanks for the details. Sounds like Malta (or Gozo specifically) has been your ideal spot! Are you planning to return to the US at medicare age?

 

[projectmaximus]

Projectmaximus, thanks for starting this thread. It's nice to have a little piece of real estate in the ER.org space just for our specific concerns.
-BB

Nice! Congrats..I don't think anyone expected to hear from an ER expat in Switzerland! Of course, since you can make it work it certainly makes sense as QOL is so great. Which city did you settle in? Is it also where you were working or did you move elsewhere?

Also sounds like you are thinking this is not a forever spot...just permanent for now? Do you have any possibility of a path to citizenship?

 

[Bryan Barnfellow]

Nice! Congrats..I don't think anyone expected to hear from an ER expat in Switzerland! Of course, since you can make it work it certainly makes sense as QOL is so great. Which city did you settle in? Is it also where you were working or did you move elsewhere?

Also sounds like you are thinking this is not a forever spot...just permanent for now? Do you have any possibility of a path to citizenship?

Yeah, never during all the years we scraped our pennies and lived way below our means did we think that we would end up in this country. It was the job that brought us here and the last of our four parents had passed away, so we were free to leave. We had considered, when we lived in the States, retiring at least part of the year to Italy. But, now we love it here and do want to stay permanently.

We live in Lugano, in the southern, Italian speaking canton of Ticino, which is voted every year by the Swiss as "most beautiful" and "most stylish." We are just on the border with northern Italy. So, we can go to markets in Italy or lunch at the drop of a hat. The Italian influence is strong and I don't think I've ever seen so many good looking people. Milan is more the center of cultural attention here than Zurich. My wife is good at managing the budget and finding the "Buy 2 Get One Free" offers in the grocery stores. And I manage the income producing assets and have gotten at least not bad at it.

We plan to apply next year for citizenship. It's tough: they require a reasonable fluency in Italian here, plus you are tested on your knowledge of Switzerland (geography, history, politics, culture, food, etc.). A sample question I read about from a Canton further north. "If you are on a train going from here to Lucerne, name the three major rivers you would cross." Yikes! Finally, they require evidence of integration: you have Swiss friends, you participate in community activities, clubs, sports, etc.

But we're smitten, so we want to take that final step just because we are eligible and want to feel like we truly belong here.

That said, we are realists and know that we could encounter a situation where living in such an expensive country could outmatch our resources, given the right perfect storm. So, we think about Italy. France is out due to the taxes. I've looked at Malta. Spain and Portugal are options perhaps. But I am hoping we can stay here.

Thanks for asking!

-BB

 

[Puravida1]

Thanks for the details. Sounds like Malta (or Gozo specifically) has been your ideal spot! Are you planning to return to the US at medicare age?

No it doesn't really make sense as Medicare is still far more expensive then the most expensive private global health insurance plan here.

But Medicare is still a backup option in case we get one of those diseases that require specialist care like some of those rare cancers. The US is pretty much the only game in town for treating those so there is a possibility that if we are so unlucky as to need specialized treatment in a US hospital like the Mayo Clinic then the only access to something like that would be to move back to the US and get treated there. Costs for treatments like these run into the millions of dollars per year in the US and no international insurance company will touch that.

But the most likely scenario is that we will just need standard treatment in the future and we have options locally at the US Stewart Healthcare run hospital in Gozo, the hospitals in Malta or alternatively a private hospital in Switzerland or another more advanced European country.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

No it doesn't really make sense as Medicare is still far more expensive then the most expensive private global health insurance plan here.

As a resident of Malta, does one have to purchase private medical healthcare, or are you covered by Malta's universal healthcare?

 

[FIREd]

Yeah, never during all the years we scraped our pennies and lived way below our means did we think that we would end up in this country. It was the job that brought us here and the last of our four parents had passed away, so we were free to leave. We had considered, when we lived in the States, retiring at least part of the year to Italy. But, now we love it here and do want to stay permanently.

We live in Lugano, in the southern, Italian speaking canton of Ticino, which is voted every year by the Swiss as "most beautiful" and "most stylish." We are just on the border with northern Italy. So, we can go to markets in Italy or lunch at the drop of a hat. The Italian influence is strong and I don't think I've ever seen so many good looking people. Milan is more the center of cultural attention here than Zurich. My wife is good at managing the budget and finding the "Buy 2 Get One Free" offers in the grocery stores. And I manage the income producing assets and have gotten at least not bad at it.

We plan to apply next year for citizenship. It's tough: they require a reasonable fluency in Italian here, plus you are tested on your knowledge of Switzerland (geography, history, politics, culture, food, etc.). A sample question I read about from a Canton further north. "If you are on a train going from here to Lucerne, name the three major rivers you would cross." Yikes! Finally, they require evidence of integration: you have Swiss friends, you participate in community activities, clubs, sports, etc.

But we're smitten, so we want to take that final step just because we are eligible and want to feel like we truly belong here.

That said, we are realists and know that we could encounter a situation where living in such an expensive country could outmatch our resources, given the right perfect storm. So, we think about Italy. France is out due to the taxes. I've looked at Malta. Spain and Portugal are options perhaps. But I am hoping we can stay here.

Thanks for asking!

-BB

There was a documentary a few years ago on Swiss TV (probably the TSR) showing that some Swiss retirees might actually pay less taxes in France than in Switzerland because of the numerous tax loopholes available in France. And taxes have actually gone down in France since then. With the lower cost of living and lower health insurance premiums than in Switzerland, France might actually be a competitive option. For my part, I do find it quite attractive. But if you have a large, inflexible retirement income (like a pension), then yes it is best to look elsewhere.

 

[kcowan]

Our various European trips have taken us to Anncey and Lugano and we can see the attraction of those locations. We always thought the area was too expensive for retirement but the portfolio performance has opened up many possibilities.

 

[projectmaximus]

That said, we are realists and know that we could encounter a situation where living in such an expensive country could outmatch our resources, given the right perfect storm. So, we think about Italy. France is out due to the taxes. I've looked at Malta. Spain and Portugal are options perhaps. But I am hoping we can stay here.

Thanks for asking!

-BB

I've never been to the Italian region; it sounds lovely. Good luck on the citizenship! I hope it works out for you and you enjoy your ER in Switzerland!

 

[projectmaximus]

No it doesn't really make sense as Medicare is still far more expensive then the most expensive private global health insurance plan here.

Ah gotcha. Fingers crossed you have good health and never look back!

 

[projectmaximus]

There was a documentary a few years ago on Swiss TV (probably the TSR) showing that some Swiss retirees might actually pay less taxes in France than in Switzerland because of the numerous tax loopholes available in France. And taxes have actually gone down in France since then. With the lower cost of living and lower health insurance premiums than in Switzerland, France might actually be a competitive option. For my part, I do find it quite attractive. But if you have a large, inflexible retirement income (like a pension), then yes it is best to look elsewhere.

Wow FIREd, are you also an expat ER in Switzerland? Or are you a native there?

 

[FIREd]

Wow FIREd, are you also an expat ER in Switzerland? Or are you a native there?

I was born in a Franco-Swiss family and I was raised near Geneva, Switzerland. I came back to the area early last year after having spent 20+ years in the US. Upon my return, I had to deal with many issues that expats face (except immigration). I don't actually live in Switzerland, but rather in France - albeit a stone throw away from the Swiss border and less than 5 miles from downtown Geneva. The border is very soft and I cross it all the time, having family on both sides.

 

[rt-texas]

Hola from the Atenas Costa Rica. 10th month here. Wasn't necessarily going to stay here permanently, was checking it out and enjoying the nature, but decided to ride out Covid here as opposed to back in the states.

We were going to spend the summer in Europe visiting friends and looking hard at Portugal, Spain and Malta for long term.

No kids, sold our suburban golf course house last July. Did a good job of setting up bank and brokerage accounts beforehand, still have US cell numbers we have had for years so 2F authentication has been no issue on anything. Renewed DL's, passports credit cards all before we left so we have a calendar buffer out into the future for legal needs. Set-up all electronic on all accounts 6+ months before we left so we had time to iron out issues.

Have a traveling mailbox for 90% that might show up. Accountant is the legal address of all financial institutions in case of snail mail. The one or two issues we have had have been taken care of by a quick Skype phone call.

Love being down here. Had the opportunity to take a repatriation flight back to the states, didn't do it. We could go back but we'd expose ourselves and don't feel it's worth the risk.

 

[ddoorn]

There are many expats on this board. We are extended snowbirds owing to Covid flight Restrictions. I think it is hard to discuss common problems because destination is so crucial to any discussion.

If you can suggest what you interests are, we can direct you to the right threads/places?

I am not an expat but wife and I are giving it serious consideration and it would be nice to join a thread that ponders how to decide to go for an expat lifestyle.

I’m torn due to extended family that would become far MORE extended if we were to go to Belize or Costa Rica.

Thx, Don

 

[esterhazy]

Things were really cheap back then in Shanghai as well. Rent for a two bedroom was like 500 USD per month. Now it's like 2500 to 3k usd haha.

This is the one big thing I tell people about when they dream about retiring to a "cheap" location. (I am retired in Vietnam but I lived and worked here before retiring.)


Developing countries are developing which means the whole point is that prices will go up. They want their citizens to earn more money which means that, over time, everything will cost more money.


If you're retiring on something pretty lean or have a high reliance on a pension/Social Security (which is indexed to US inflation) then that can cause problems as the years add up.



A friend's father early retired to Hua Hin, Thailand, many years ago (maybe two decades at this point?) and the father has said that many of his German/Swiss/Austrian friends basically ran out of money as their pensions/investments failed to keep up with the increasing prices and had to end up moving back to Europe where they begged family members to move in with them.



Of course, this doesn't happen overnight or even after just a few years. But if you're going to be retired 40+ years someplace, small differences in local inflation add up.

 

[projectmaximus]

I was born in a Franco-Swiss family and I was raised near Geneva, Switzerland. I came back to the area early last year after having spent 20+ years in the US. Upon my return, I had to deal with many issues that expats face (except immigration). I don't actually live in Switzerland, but rather in France - albeit a stone throw away from the Swiss border and less than 5 miles from downtown Geneva. The border is very soft and I cross it all the time, having family on both sides.

Ah ok. Hope the move back has treated you kindly!!

 

[projectmaximus]

Hola from the Atenas Costa Rica. 10th month here. Wasn't necessarily going to stay here permanently, was checking it out and enjoying the nature, but decided to ride out Covid here as opposed to back in the states.

We were going to spend the summer in Europe visiting friends and looking hard at Portugal, Spain and Malta for long term.

Sounds awesome and glad you're enjoying it there! Take your time in your search and decision. The journey is just as important as the destination!

 

[projectmaximus]

I am not an expat but wife and I are giving it serious consideration and it would be nice to join a thread that ponders how to decide to go for an expat lifestyle.

I’m torn due to extended family that would become far MORE extended if we were to go to Belize or Costa Rica.

Thx, Don

Is it feasible to give it a trial run for a year?

 

[projectmaximus]

Of course, this doesn't happen overnight or even after just a few years. But if you're going to be retired 40+ years someplace, small differences in local inflation add up.

You make a very good point. I mean Shanghai is an extreme example (by some measures it is one of the most expensive cities now) but yeah, to some degree this is likely to happen at all the popular locations.

btw, I'd really like to hear your thoughts and experiences. Honestly Vietnam is one of the few places I'm extremely curious about that I've never been to. I have been hoping someone would check into this thread from there!

 

[martyp]

Developing countries are developing which means the whole point is that prices will go up. They want their citizens to earn more money which means that, over time, everything will cost more money.


If you're retiring on something pretty lean or have a high reliance on a pension/Social Security (which is indexed to US inflation) then that can cause problems as the years add up.

I am living in Thailand. Inflation is something you have to worry about in any country. The US has had plenty of inflation over the past 20-30 years. The additional thing expats have to pay attention to is currency exchange rates. For example, my understanding is that British expats in Thailand have lost about 50% of their purchasing power over the last 20-30 years due to exchange rates alone. In the meantime though, I think prices in the countryside in Thailand have hardly budged.

Another thing that periodically increases are the yearly financial requirements to maintain your visa or extension of stay status. Two years ago Thailand made changes that effectively raised the financial requirements.

When considering Southeast Asian countries I think it is best to ignore the past reputation of the region as being a place where you can to live on a shoestring and go anywhere and do anything you want. As part of developing countries going about the business of developing, they are bringing their economies and immigration standards closer to the the developed world. However, it is still true that places like Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, and the Philippines are low cost places to live with reliable policies to allow people to stay long term.

 

[esterhazy]

However, it is still true that places like Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, and the Philippines are low cost places to live with reliable policies to allow people to stay long term.

I can only speak about Vietnam, where I live, but this isn't really true. Vietnam has never offered an easy, long-term visa. The only options were own a business, be married to a local, or live on a tourist visa and renew it every 90-days. Renewing would be a combination of border runs and paying to have it renewed in country -- it varied a bit over time and depending on the whims of the local office.


However, last year Vietnam passed some laws to crack down on people living here indefinitely on tourist visas. The 90-day tourist visa is gone as of July 1st and only a 30-day tourist visa exists. There is much speculation that, come July, there will be tougher questions asked on multiple renewals, especially in the same geographic location. But it also might just mean you have to pay a higher bribe every 30 days to renew your tourist visa.



Along with that, Vietnam passed new banking laws that make it impossible to open a local bank account until you have some kind of visa that allows you at least a 12-month stay. Again, this essentially means only people who are working or married to locals have that option. It's not impossible to live here without a local bank account but between daily ATM withdrawal limits and merchants that don't accept international credit cards, you can certainly run into issues. For a year or so, the only ride sharing service -- Grab -- only accepted local credit cards. Foreigners had to pay with cash.

 

[martyp]

I can only speak about Vietnam, where I live, but this isn't really true. Vietnam has never offered an easy, long-term visa. The only options were own a business, be married to a local, or live on a tourist visa and renew it every 90-days. Renewing would be a combination of border runs and paying to have it renewed in country -- it varied a bit over time and depending on the whims of the local office.


However, last year Vietnam passed some laws to crack down on people living here indefinitely on tourist visas. The 90-day tourist visa is gone as of July 1st and only a 30-day tourist visa exists. There is much speculation that, come July, there will be tougher questions asked on multiple renewals, especially in the same geographic location. But it also might just mean you have to pay a higher bribe every 30 days to renew your tourist visa.



Along with that, Vietnam passed new banking laws that make it impossible to open a local bank account until you have some kind of visa that allows you at least a 12-month stay. Again, this essentially means only people who are working or married to locals have that option. It's not impossible to live here without a local bank account but between daily ATM withdrawal limits and merchants that don't accept international credit cards, you can certainly run into issues. For a year or so, the only ride sharing service -- Grab -- only accepted local credit cards. Foreigners had to pay with cash.

Since this is an early retirement site I was mainly addressing retirement possibilities. But yes, there is more detail to be said for every individual country. For Thailand, long stay visas and extensions (1 year at a time) for those not working are available to those over 50 years old, those married to a Thai, and those who purchase into the Thai Elite visa program. If your are a very early retiree, under 50 years, and there are certainly many like that on this forum, then options are more limited in Thailand unless you are well off financially.

Hopefully this discussion thread can help people navigate the process in individual countries and compare/contrast countries.

 

[Puravida1]

As a resident of Malta, does one have to purchase private medical healthcare, or are you covered by Malta's universal healthcare?

UK and Maltese citizens and all workers are covered for free in the public healthcare system.

Everyone else who is not working must buy a minimum level of insurance and they have special policies for this. It only costs a few hundred dollars a year. There is a private hospital system too and everyone needs insurance to access that. We buy an international plan that gives us access to all private hospitals in the world except the US and Canada. For short US trips you can buy travel insurance like the tourists do. And then you always have Medicare available for a major illness.

 

[Puravida1]

I am not an expat but wife and I are giving it serious consideration and it would be nice to join a thread that ponders how to decide to go for an expat lifestyle.

I’m torn due to extended family that would become far MORE extended if we were to go to Belize or Costa Rica.

Thx, Don

All the material out there focuses on trying to find the best country but the truth is that expat success is 90% you and 10% the country. People who are well suited could do well anywhere while people who are not well suited wont do well anywhere.

The first criteria is how self sufficient you are. It is a huge advantage to be able to do a lot of DIY stuff yourself. House stuff like simple construction skills, electrical and plumbing and be able to fix you own car. Other countries do not have the level of services, or else they do have the services but there is no follow through. Being able to just do it yourself saves a huge amount of frustration.

You also need to be able to accept things that you would not accept in the US without it bothering you. Things like dropping your car in for a service and getting it back dented. Would you be able to smile and just accept it. Are you happy to buy new things that turn out to be broken and not mind. This is not so easy.

Then there are language skills to consider and there may be things in the culture like racism or corruption. You just have to be able to suck it up.

After all this then the individual countries comes in. Its very different to all the expat marketing out there that focus on how the drinks are cheap or the bus is free.

 

[martyp]

All the material out there focuses on trying to find the best country but the truth is that expat success is 90% you and 10% the country. People who are well suited could do well anywhere while people who are not well suited wont do well anywhere.

The first criteria is how self sufficient you are. It is a huge advantage to be able to do a lot of DIY stuff yourself. House stuff like simple construction skills, electrical and plumbing and be able to fix you own car. Other countries do not have the level of services, or else they do have the services but there is no follow through. Being able to just do it yourself saves a huge amount of frustration.

You also need to be able to accept things that you would not accept in the US without it bothering you. Things like dropping your car in for a service and getting it back dented. Would you be able to smile and just accept it. Are you happy to buy new things that turn out to be broken and not mind. This is not so easy.

Then there are language skills to consider and there may be things in the culture like racism or corruption. You just have to be able to suck it up.

After all this then the individual countries comes in. Its very different to all the expat marketing out there that focus on how the drinks are cheap or the bus is free.

I totally agree. You have to accept that things work differently in different countries. Different is not necessarily bad or wrong. It is just different. You have to be looking for someplace different and not just a cheap place to live.