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Old 06-17-2020, 02:10 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Puravida1 View Post
That Maltese passport is useful to have and gives you a good option in the future if you decide to move to Europe. Its definitely not for everyone. I am also living in Gozo.
Did you guys consider anywhere else before deciding on Malta? Do you think you will remain there forever?

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I notice the thread is veering towards discussions on permanent residency. We had of 4-year visas run out when Mexico introduced new laws so we went permanent. It required a letter in Spanish indicating that we each had $3300/mo in income. And a copy of a investments showing earnings. We carefully tailored what we provided to show just above the minimum income. It was on bank letterhead because we are all electronic.
Nice congrats. Has there been a tangible benefit for you since gaining permanent residency status? And do you plan to continue as part-timers there for the rest of your lives?
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:28 PM   #42
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I notice the thread is veering towards discussions on permanent residency. We had of 4-year visas run out when Mexico introduced new laws so we went permanent. It required a letter in Spanish indicating that we each had $3300/mo in income. And a copy of a investments showing earnings. We carefully tailored what we provided to show just above the minimum income. It was on bank letterhead because we are all electronic.
I think you could also have gone with a lump sum of $126k US in an overseas bank account PP.
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Old 06-17-2020, 07:50 PM   #43
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Hi projectmaximus. Thanks for your detailed response.
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I feel like Malaysia may be the best option you have. Which company/agent did you contact?
As I recall, the consultancy was called JoyStay. I had been checking on various resources and discussion groups, and they were highly recommended (5 years ago).
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The income requirement in Malaysia is quite reasonable imo. It is approx 2500 USD per month for a single person. Perhaps an even better option for you is the mm2h for the Eastern Malaysia state of Sarawak. They operate their own separate mm2h program specifically for 50+ age group and their requirements are lower. About 1750 USD/month income and the fixed deposit is only $25k for a single person as opposed to $75k.
I suppose that's reasonable for a person still working. As a "Life after FIRE" person, I'm no longer working, and financially independent based on assets, not income. I'm convinced that MM2H is not for people in that category (e.g., I don't think the immigration department is interested in hearing my ideas about "safe withdrawal rates").

There are ways I could contrive income, but it would have adverse financial consequences (higher tax bracket, reduced Obamacare subsidy, etc.). That would cost me thousands. Add to that the fact that I'd be going with the consultant's "opinion" about whether it would work, and then taking the risk that the immigration department would decline the application (as I'd have nothing in writing in advance that my situation is acceptable). This combination of cost and murkiness is a significant deterrent.
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And fyi when I said the mm2h application process was slow and murky, my emphasis was on slow.
My emphasis was on murky. I have time, but I don't have much tolerance for large expenditures of time and money without assurance that it won't go to waste. To me, financial independence necessarily involves not throwing money away.

The kinds of murkiness I mentioned were only the ones I could remember off the top of my head. In the end, I decided not to do it. I could reopen my decision, but, at a minimum, I'd need clarification that the questions I ran into (about contrivances of income, format of bank statements/letters, and other stuff) can be answered, and not by the opinions of consultants or anecdotes of other applicants, but by official criteria from the immigration department. Aside from the income issue, the bank documents I can obtain don't even meet the official rules (which I think are skewed against American applicants, e.g., the currency issue I noted). If some applicants got past the official rules, it's not a guarantee that I will.

Just sharing my experience and perspective... as in all things immigration, your mileage may vary!
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There's an extensive gold card thread on forumosa and included a retired person trying to apply based on his work salary from over a decade prior.
I'd be interested to know if he got the Taiwan gold card. My experience is closer to 20 years old, so I'd be a bit more of a long-shot.
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So it might be possible for you as well...however it would really only serve for 3 years and I'd assume you would have no chance to renew after that.
I guess it's a dead end for a person not planning to work or do business.
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Old 06-17-2020, 10:08 PM   #44
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However, I'm concerned about your earlier comment, that permanent residency is not an option for you. If I retire somewhere, I'd want it to be permanent.

If that's not the deal, then I'm really just a tourist.
Yes. Permanent residency is a no-go here

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I hope it means only assets, and not substantial income (unlike Malaysia, which requires both).
Actually you don't need any income. I do have to park 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account. Technically, the account has to have 800k 2 months before and 3 months after each 1 year of stay application and 400k minimum the other 7 months of the year. I just leave the 800k there all year long and don't touch it.

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I went to some social functions (Meetup groups, a local theater interest group, an improv practice group, etc.) in Chiang Mai and noticed that there were only foreigners and no Thais. In China and Taiwan, those kinds of functions were always attended by some mix of foreigners and locals. So I wasn't seeing a way to make local friends through my usual activities (or through foreign friends, as the foreigners I knew didn't seem to have local friends).
Interesting. My experience in Thailand: I went to a theater performance of "Whose Afraid of Virginia Wolf". It was an english language performance. 60 people attending, all foreigners. When I go to classical music concerts it is attended by hundreds of people the large majority of which are Thais. When I go salsa dancing the women are Thai and the men are foreigners.

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In Pattaya, I noticed that at dinnertime, I'd see foreigners by themselves or with other foreigners, and no local/foreigner mixed groups (other than a foreign guy with a local lady, as that's a thing there).
You just can't judge Thailand by looking at Pattaya or the southern resort islands. Even I feel surrounded by foreigners in those places. They are for short vacations only.

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The fact that you'd tip at all is interesting, because all the info I've found says tipping is not customary among locals in Thailand. In China/Taiwan, I found that neither locals nor foreigners tip anywhere nor are expected to (other than parts of Shenzhen where they try to trick people).
Tipping is not required but appreciated. 20 baht at restaurants. Maybe more for food delivery because during Covid times are hard.

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in Thailand, it turned out to be an issue sometimes if a foreigner acts different from locals (which is why I said "double standard"). It's only in Thailand where I experienced that.
The main place you find a "double standard" is dual pricing at tourist locations and national parks. Some expats get incensed over this. It doesn't bother me at all. All these places are still less expensive than similar places in the US and i think it is great that Thailand makes it's cultural and national resources affordable to poor Thais.
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Old 06-18-2020, 07:07 AM   #45
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...Nice congrats. Has there been a tangible benefit for you since gaining permanent residency status? And do you plan to continue as part-timers there for the rest of your lives?
Yes we were able to claim primary residence exemption on the sale of our first condo.

We bought the new condo with a view to make it permanent and then use Airbnb for our trips back to Vancouver.
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Old 06-18-2020, 08:23 AM   #46
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I notice the thread is veering towards discussions on permanent residency. We had of 4-year visas run out when Mexico introduced new laws so we went permanent. It required a letter in Spanish indicating that we each had $3300/mo in income. And a copy of a investments showing earnings. We carefully tailored what we provided to show just above the minimum income. It was on bank letterhead because we are all electronic.
In early March, DW & I began our Mexican permanent residency application at the local consulate in Phoenix. If a foreigner is applying for permanent residency, there are actually two different methods:

1. Statements as proof of investments or statements of bank accounts with a monthly average balance equivalent to twenty thousand days of general minimum wage in Mexico (123.22 MXP for 2020), approximately $130,000 USD for the past twelve months (considering a rate of exchange of 19 pesos per US dollar).

OR

2. Documents showing that the applicant has a pension (free of liens) greater than the equivalent of five hundred days of general minimum wage in Mexico (123.22 MXP for 2020), approximately $3,250 USD for the past six months (considering a rate of exchange of 19 pesos per US dollar).

DW & I made the decision to apply separately for permanente under the requirements in #1 so that we wouldn't have to produce an apostilled marriage certificate. The only hitch for us now is if the virus will let us return to Mexico prior to September so we can complete the process at an INM office! If not, we have to start over.
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:01 AM   #47
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We looked at a few places over the years. My last job was in a health insurance company in california and I knew it would be a lot easier to retire abroad if I was going to do it before medicare kicks in. I became very aware of how expensive healthcare can be in the US. We looked at Canada and also Mexico/Costa Rica/Panama. Over the years we realized that we did not want to live in any kind expat compound but be more integrated with the locals. But we dont speak any language other than English. Also I did not want to live anywhere where people have bars on the windows. We like travelling in Europe a lot and also didn't want to give up the California Weather. So English Speaking, In Europe, Mediterranean climate - that really narrowed it down. So we visited Malta and didnt like it - too noisy, crowded and too much construction. This is how it is with a lot of retire overseas places. They look great on paper and you get all excited, but then you go there on a trip and in a day you think - no way, what was I thinking. We went over to the smaller Island, Gozo, and it was perfect and we bought a farmhouse a week later. We just knew it was right for us. Sounds like a leap in the dark but it really wasnt.

Malta is also quite good on the tax side. You are still going to pay the same US taxes no matter where you are, but the other country often takes another bite. Malta doesnt. Its also a modern EU country which reduces the risk a lot.
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:12 AM   #48
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Is everything available easily on Gozo? How long is the Ferry to the main Island?
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:17 AM   #49
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I read Malta will give 10 year residency permits to Brits who move there prior to the end of the year. Brexit is killing free movement at the end of the year.
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Old 06-18-2020, 10:13 AM   #50
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Gozo vrs Malta is like living in a town near a big city. You can get everything in Gozo but Malta has a lot more choices. Lots of Maltese chain stores have outlets in Gozo.

The ferry is easy - 25 mins each way and goes every 30-45 mins. They are quite big and take a few hundred cars, big trucks and about a thousand people. They run 24 hours a day though there are less at night. Also if youre over 60 they are free. They are cheaper if you live on Gozo than if you live in Malta.

Brits also get the 10 year residency in future years but its not backed by the EU treaty - only a legal difference. Brits also get free healthcare. The rest of us buy private insurance which costs from 500 to 2500 for a couple for a year depending on if you want health care that covers worldwide(Except US) or just Malta. I pay 15 euro to see a London educated doctor though the Maltese say I should only pay 10. A visit lasts 45 mins and is not rushed. And the Doctors do house calls if youre sick. Very different than California. More than half the Expats here are British so they tend to dominate the expat scene especially in Gozo.
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Old 06-18-2020, 11:06 AM   #51
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Projectmaximus, thanks for starting this thread. It's nice to have a little piece of real estate in the ER.org space just for our specific concerns.

I moved from the US to Switzerland 11 years ago for a very interesting job. My wife and I knew I was getting near the end of our plan for FIRE. After six years I pulled the ripcord and we decided we really liked it here and so stayed on and were able to get permanent residence.

It's not easy to get even a one year work permit in Switzerland if you are not EU (Switzerland is not in the EU but has a lot of cross border agreements, including free movement of labor with the EU); your employer has to demonstrate that they could not find (among applicants) someone as qualified as you among Swiss nationals or EU citizens.

Much harder to get permanent residence. It normally requires 10 years residence on a lower work/residence permit plus a certain level of competency in the national language used in your canton. There are four national languages: German, French, Italian, and Romansh. You also need to show that either through your job or your own resources if retiring that you have at least the national minimum for your size of family (single, couple, #children). Also, background checks with various certifications. It's virtually impossible to just move here to retire. You have to have moved up from a lower permit after a suitable amount of time, and the lower permit is always tied to a job. Some cantons (cantons are similar to states in the US) have special schemes for the super rich to retire directly here. Needless to say, my wife and I did NOT qualify. :-)

It's a slog. But the quality of life is worth it and Switzerland's location in the center of Europe is great for travel. It's an efficiently run, modern country with little crime and first rate services. Health care is universal (mandatory for all residents) but you pay for it yourself, like with Obamacare, even when working. It's rare for the employer to pay, unless it is done to attract and keep highly specialized talent (IT, Fintech, Pharma, precision manufacturing, like that). BTW, Switzerland is about 30% expat! Highest in Europe and mostly highly skilled immigrants needed for the economy. The health care is excellent and the government will subsidize you if you start to have trouble paying the full bill. But it stays your policy all your life and so you can choose to retire without worries about health care.

My biggest issue is the currency exchange rate. The Swiss franc is considered to be overvalued by as much as 30%. This is great when spending Swiss francs in other countries. However, we derive about 93% of our income from dollar-based assets, which are vulnerable to swings in the FX rate. Long term the prospects for the US dollar generally lean toward less as opposed to more strength. This makes keeping a well thought out plan B ready in the box for possible eventual use.

-BB
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Old 06-18-2020, 01:17 PM   #52
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We looked at a few places over the years. My last job was in a health insurance company in california and I knew it would be a lot easier to retire abroad if I was going to do it before medicare kicks in.
Thanks for the details. Sounds like Malta (or Gozo specifically) has been your ideal spot! Are you planning to return to the US at medicare age?
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Old 06-18-2020, 01:21 PM   #53
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Projectmaximus, thanks for starting this thread. It's nice to have a little piece of real estate in the ER.org space just for our specific concerns.
-BB
Nice! Congrats..I don't think anyone expected to hear from an ER expat in Switzerland! Of course, since you can make it work it certainly makes sense as QOL is so great. Which city did you settle in? Is it also where you were working or did you move elsewhere?

Also sounds like you are thinking this is not a forever spot...just permanent for now? Do you have any possibility of a path to citizenship?
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Old 06-18-2020, 02:18 PM   #54
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Nice! Congrats..I don't think anyone expected to hear from an ER expat in Switzerland! Of course, since you can make it work it certainly makes sense as QOL is so great. Which city did you settle in? Is it also where you were working or did you move elsewhere?

Also sounds like you are thinking this is not a forever spot...just permanent for now? Do you have any possibility of a path to citizenship?
Yeah, never during all the years we scraped our pennies and lived way below our means did we think that we would end up in this country. It was the job that brought us here and the last of our four parents had passed away, so we were free to leave. We had considered, when we lived in the States, retiring at least part of the year to Italy. But, now we love it here and do want to stay permanently.

We live in Lugano, in the southern, Italian speaking canton of Ticino, which is voted every year by the Swiss as "most beautiful" and "most stylish." We are just on the border with northern Italy. So, we can go to markets in Italy or lunch at the drop of a hat. The Italian influence is strong and I don't think I've ever seen so many good looking people. :-) Milan is more the center of cultural attention here than Zurich. My wife is good at managing the budget and finding the "Buy 2 Get One Free" offers in the grocery stores. And I manage the income producing assets and have gotten at least not bad at it.

We plan to apply next year for citizenship. It's tough: they require a reasonable fluency in Italian here, plus you are tested on your knowledge of Switzerland (geography, history, politics, culture, food, etc.). A sample question I read about from a Canton further north. "If you are on a train going from here to Lucerne, name the three major rivers you would cross." Yikes! Finally, they require evidence of integration: you have Swiss friends, you participate in community activities, clubs, sports, etc.

But we're smitten, so we want to take that final step just because we are eligible and want to feel like we truly belong here.

That said, we are realists and know that we could encounter a situation where living in such an expensive country could outmatch our resources, given the right perfect storm. So, we think about Italy. France is out due to the taxes. I've looked at Malta. Spain and Portugal are options perhaps. But I am hoping we can stay here.

Thanks for asking!

-BB
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:30 AM   #55
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Thanks for the details. Sounds like Malta (or Gozo specifically) has been your ideal spot! Are you planning to return to the US at medicare age?
No it doesn't really make sense as Medicare is still far more expensive then the most expensive private global health insurance plan here.

But Medicare is still a backup option in case we get one of those diseases that require specialist care like some of those rare cancers. The US is pretty much the only game in town for treating those so there is a possibility that if we are so unlucky as to need specialized treatment in a US hospital like the Mayo Clinic then the only access to something like that would be to move back to the US and get treated there. Costs for treatments like these run into the millions of dollars per year in the US and no international insurance company will touch that.

But the most likely scenario is that we will just need standard treatment in the future and we have options locally at the US Stewart Healthcare run hospital in Gozo, the hospitals in Malta or alternatively a private hospital in Switzerland or another more advanced European country.
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:24 AM   #56
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No it doesn't really make sense as Medicare is still far more expensive then the most expensive private global health insurance plan here.
As a resident of Malta, does one have to purchase private medical healthcare, or are you covered by Malta's universal healthcare?
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:08 AM   #57
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Yeah, never during all the years we scraped our pennies and lived way below our means did we think that we would end up in this country. It was the job that brought us here and the last of our four parents had passed away, so we were free to leave. We had considered, when we lived in the States, retiring at least part of the year to Italy. But, now we love it here and do want to stay permanently.

We live in Lugano, in the southern, Italian speaking canton of Ticino, which is voted every year by the Swiss as "most beautiful" and "most stylish." We are just on the border with northern Italy. So, we can go to markets in Italy or lunch at the drop of a hat. The Italian influence is strong and I don't think I've ever seen so many good looking people. :-) Milan is more the center of cultural attention here than Zurich. My wife is good at managing the budget and finding the "Buy 2 Get One Free" offers in the grocery stores. And I manage the income producing assets and have gotten at least not bad at it.

We plan to apply next year for citizenship. It's tough: they require a reasonable fluency in Italian here, plus you are tested on your knowledge of Switzerland (geography, history, politics, culture, food, etc.). A sample question I read about from a Canton further north. "If you are on a train going from here to Lucerne, name the three major rivers you would cross." Yikes! Finally, they require evidence of integration: you have Swiss friends, you participate in community activities, clubs, sports, etc.

But we're smitten, so we want to take that final step just because we are eligible and want to feel like we truly belong here.

That said, we are realists and know that we could encounter a situation where living in such an expensive country could outmatch our resources, given the right perfect storm. So, we think about Italy. France is out due to the taxes. I've looked at Malta. Spain and Portugal are options perhaps. But I am hoping we can stay here.

Thanks for asking!

-BB

There was a documentary a few years ago on Swiss TV (probably the TSR) showing that some Swiss retirees might actually pay less taxes in France than in Switzerland because of the numerous tax loopholes available in France. And taxes have actually gone down in France since then. With the lower cost of living and lower health insurance premiums than in Switzerland, France might actually be a competitive option. For my part, I do find it quite attractive. But if you have a large, inflexible retirement income (like a pension), then yes it is best to look elsewhere.
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Old 06-19-2020, 08:36 AM   #58
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Our various European trips have taken us to Anncey and Lugano and we can see the attraction of those locations. We always thought the area was too expensive for retirement but the portfolio performance has opened up many possibilities.
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Old 06-19-2020, 08:36 AM   #59
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That said, we are realists and know that we could encounter a situation where living in such an expensive country could outmatch our resources, given the right perfect storm. So, we think about Italy. France is out due to the taxes. I've looked at Malta. Spain and Portugal are options perhaps. But I am hoping we can stay here.

Thanks for asking!

-BB
I've never been to the Italian region; it sounds lovely. Good luck on the citizenship! I hope it works out for you and you enjoy your ER in Switzerland!
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Old 06-19-2020, 08:37 AM   #60
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No it doesn't really make sense as Medicare is still far more expensive then the most expensive private global health insurance plan here.
Ah gotcha. Fingers crossed you have good health and never look back!
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