Should you retire overseas

[theOAP]

Another though on cars for you Alan..... If you buy the right classic car it appreciates. I've never lost money on one yet.

I know we're not going to discuss tax, but since you've brought it up, owning a classic car abroad is one area that has annoyed me. I came close to buying a spotless classic Aston Martin from a friend at an exceptionally good price.

Buy the car abroad, pay for it with funds from abroad, sell it abroad, and make a profit. It will be a capital gain for a US person, plus, if it's a real classic, there's the chance of NIIT if your gains for the year go above the threshold with no offsetting foreign tax, as well as the currency gain being included in the capital gain calculation. A real problem for Alan in the UK (no capital gain tax on the profitable sale of a motor vehicle to use as foreign tax credits).

As I said, I really find this aspect annoying, but at least you get the enjoyment of driving it on good scenic roads. Since you've made a profit on the classics you've owned, don't you agree?

 

[nun]

One can retire anywhere, but more to your point, if we decide to stay in Ireland long term we would fulfill the requirements for citizenship which I have read and the requirements are not very difficult to meet. The retirement plan has a separate spreadsheet for Ireland including a budget that meets our needs and the requirement to remain in Ireland and not become a burden to the state. If we decide not to stay the world is our buffet to try something else.

There are some places where it's relatively easy to get residence as long as you have enough money and others where it's a lot more difficult. Ireland is fairly liberal. You'd find it almost impossible to retire to the UK or Germany without an EU passport.

 

[LARS]

You'd find it almost impossible to retire to the UK or Germany without an EU passport.

I was under the impression for the UK that if you are willing to park 2 million Sterling in UK gilts you are good to go?


UK Investor Visa for Migration to the United Kingdom › VISA.UK.COM

 

[Sojourning]

LARS, to retire to the UK at age 60 or over, you need only show you have income of 25k GBP per year without working AND demonstrate a tie to the UK. It may seem as if that 'tie to the UK' would make it difficult but in fact, it's a very loose 'tie'.
UK Immigration and Visa Services - Retirement Basically, you just have to have the money and say you are a 'student of British history' or something.

TheOAP, why on earth would you tell the IRS you had bought and sold a car in Europe? Do you look for ways to pay them more tax? Here is how I look at it, the law must not only be fair, it must be seen to be fair. Whenever the law is not seen by ME to be fair, I ask myself the moral question, is what I am doing morally OK or not? If the answer is yes it is, I carry on and ignore the law. Buy a car in the UK or Ireland, sell it there eventually and tell no one. No one is going to rush out and tell the IRS other than YOU.

Driving a nice little classic sports car top down, over some alpine passes, is indeed enjoyable theOAP.Classic Car Tours International : French tours: SWITZERLAND/ALPS/STELVIO PASS TOUR 2013


Quite frankly theOAP, the more I read about the paranoia of Americans here, with the IRS and worldwide income, the happier I am that I am not an American. I'm just about at the point that I would advise anyone who is and plans to retire overseas, that they do everything they can to get another passport and renounce US citizenship. It ain't good for much other than living in the USA. Given that someone has chosen to retire and live in another country and assuming they 'stick', I'd say after a few years, dump the US citizenship and move on with life. Move all money, all investments out of the US. Leave only a government pension for them to tax you on as a foreign national. Stand up and show them that US retirees are not all wimps who think the IRS is omnipotent and omniscient.

 

[LARS]

LARS, to retire to the UK at age 60 or over, you need only show you have income of 25k GBP per year without working AND demonstrate a tie to the UK. It may seem as if that 'tie to the UK' would make it difficult but in fact, it's a very loose 'tie'.
UK Immigration and Visa Services - Retirement Basically, you just have to have the money and say you are a 'student of British history' or something.


I'm just about at the point that I would advise anyone who is and plans to retire overseas, that they do everything they can to get another passport and renounce US citizenship. It ain't good for much other than living in the USA. Given that someone has chosen to retire and live in another country and assuming they 'stick', I'd say after a few years, dump the US citizenship and move on with life. Move all money, all investments out of the US. Leave only a government pension for them to tax you on as a foreign national. Stand up and show them that US retirees are not all wimps who think the IRS is omnipotent and omniscient.

Was not aware of the over 60 way in. Thanks. Certainly better than parking 2 mill sterling. Now I just have to get to 60

On the US passport front, and renouncing citizenship, won't that impact any SS you are entitled to as well as Medicare (should you ever return to US). Not small considerations for some...

 

[Sojourning]

LARS, I'm having a bit of a rant obviously as I really find this paranoia about the 'rules' a bit over the top. I'm not an expert on US tax laws (thank goodness I don't have to be). I have no idea what your SS system has to say about paying your pension if you are no longer a citizen.

I can give you two other examples though to compare to. Canada will pay a government pension to you anywhere in the world. If you are 'non-resident for tax purposes', they will not tax you on it. They will just pay the full amount into any bank acccount in any country you tell them to and it is then up to you to do what you need to do about paying tax on it in that other country. The UK will pay their government pension anywhere, in the same way. Neither requires you to renounce citizenship for you to do that.

Someone else may know what would happen with your SS if you renounced citizenship. If they say you would lose your SS, that to me is just all the more reason to be thankful I'm not an American.

Re Medicare, no offense but frankly you wouldn't be losing much. The US is known for 2 things in terms of healthcare. It's crap unless you have money to pay for private insurance (I don't know if Obamacare has really impacted that or not) and the charges for a doctor or hospital visit are among, if not the highest, in the world. You can get the same care for far less money in many countries.

If you apply for travel insurance from another country, did you know that they ask this question, 'will you be travelling in countries not including the USA or including the USA? If you tick the box, 'including the USA', the price of travel insurance is higher. So an Australian for example, will pay more if they include the USA but less if they travel to Canada or the UK or France or Indonesia or anywhere else.

If you renounce citizenship, you would only be returing to visit obviously since you would no longer have the right to live there. I can go to the USA for 30 days as a tourist and pay $140 for medical insurance to cover that period of time. What does medicare cost you a month?

 

[sengsational]

...I'm having a bit of a rant obviously...

I find this discussion most intriguing!

 

[LARS]

Sojourning.

Not currently at the age to get Medicare so I don't know premiums. Obviously others on the Forum will know from first hand experience.

I do know that SS will pay out even if you live (permanent) overseas. Just don't know what happens if you renounce: I can only assume you give up the right to collect.

For me personally, it is very hard to see a path that leads realistically to renunciation at this point in my life. For starters, DW would have none of it...

EDIT: Actually it does look like you can receive SS if you renounce. You are treated as a non-resident alien.

http://finance.zacks.com/can-former-citizen-receive-social-security-retirement-benefits-7099.html

 

[Peter]

LARS, to retire to the UK at age 60 or over, you need only show you have income of 25k GBP per year without working AND demonstrate a tie to the UK. It may seem as if that 'tie to the UK' would make it difficult but in fact, it's a very loose 'tie'.
UK Immigration and Visa Services - Retirement Basically, you just have to have the money and say you are a 'student of British history' or something.

The link doesn't point to an official UK government site. In fact, the independent means visa was discontinued in 2008. See the second page of this pdf, which is on an official UK government site:

http://tinyurl.com/mnbyo4y

The key quote is:

On 27 November 2008 the retired persons of independent means immigration category was closed to new entrants. This means people:
-cannot enter the UK in this category
-already here in a different category cannot switch into retired persons of independent means.

 

[Meadbh]

I'm having a bit of a rant obviously as I really find this paranoia about the 'rules' a bit over the top.

Sojourning, paranoia may sometimes be justified. Who are we to judge our American friends for their very real concerns? As an experienced traveller you may see reneging a citizenship as a practical benefit, but many people, myself included, would have emotional ties to their home country that could not be so easily severed. The tone of your posts suggests that you feel your knowledge and experience make you a superior authority. Your information is very helpful; your judgmental tone is less so. Please consider taking a less critical, less confrontational approach.

Meadbh (who has a bit of international experience herself)

 

[LARS]

The link doesn't point to an official UK government site. In fact, the independent means visa was discontinued in 2008. See the second page of this pdf, which is on an official UK government site:

http://tinyurl.com/mnbyo4y

The key quote is:

On 27 November 2008 the retired persons of independent means immigration category was closed to new entrants. This means people:
-cannot enter the UK in this category
-already here in a different category cannot switch into retired persons of independent means.

Thanks for the link.

On page 11 of the doc. it looks like the over 60, greater than 25,000 pounds, and ties to UK still work, no?

 

[Sojourning]

Good catch Peter. I was not aware that they had closed that door. Just goes to show that the 'rules' change all the time. So it's back to the drawing board for someone who wants to retire to the UK.


Meadbh, paranoia is never justified by definition. paranoia - definition of paranoia by The Free Dictionary It is an extreme, IRRATIONAL distrust of others. Fear is sometimes justifiable but not paranoia.

In my opinion (and I am entitled to one, we are all entitled to judge and all do so), the fears expressed here regarding some things border on paranoia. Who are you to say their concerns are 'very real'? I can't say they overreact but you can say they don't? It doesn't work that way Meadbh, you don't get to tell me my judgement is wrong and your judgement is right or their judgement is right. You get to disargree with me and have your own opinion and judgement, that's all you get. I am not alone in thinking Americans tend to the paranoid. Do some reading:
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=wtzgVPjXLcGBrAOytoDwDw&gws_rd=ssl#q=americans+paranoid
If you Google the opposite, 'Americans not paranoid' you get the same hits. In other words, there are lot of articles on Americans being paranoid and none saying the opposite.

Regarding my tone. Tone is a sound, it is not written. In all one on one communication, 55% of the message is conveyed through body language, 38% through tone and only 7% through the actual words used. You may THINK you can imply a tone from the written word but in fact you may be wrong in how you perceive it as often as you are right. I am direct in my writing and in my speech. I don't beat around the bush or concern myself overly with being 'pc'. You may well confuse that directness with a 'tone' you don't approve of, but that is something you are guessing at, not something you know to be a fact. So please do not presume to tell me what tone I am using or why.

"Please consider taking a less critical, less confrontational approach." You are incorrect in your judgement Meadbh. Please consider confining your comments to the subject and not making personal remarks about me.

 

[Peter]

Thanks for the link.

On page 11 of the doc. it looks like the over 60, greater than 25,000 pounds, and ties to UK still work, no?

I think you're referring to this:

You may grant leave to remain if the applicant:
- arrived in the UK with valid entry clearance as a retired person of independent means
- has made the UK their main home
- has a minimum disposable income of their own of £25,000 a year under their control in the UK (net of any overseas or UK tax)
- can demonstrate a close connection with the UK
- has maintained and accommodated themselves and any dependants without working here or abroad and without using public funds.

The way I read the above is that leave to remain may be granted, if the applicant is already in the UK under the old retired person rules. That reflects what is on page 2, which effectively says "if you're here, you can stay, but we're closing the door to new applicants".

 

[Peter]

Good catch Peter. I was not aware that they had closed that door. Just goes to show that the 'rules' change all the time. So it's back to the drawing board for someone who wants to retire to the UK.

Yes, quite a few immigration doors have been closed recently!

The UK isn't the only place, either. Australia used to have a fairly attractive retirement visa, but the requirements have been tightened up a lot, to the point where I don't think too many people would now be interested.

 

[Meadbh]

Good catch Peter. I was not aware that they had closed that door. Just goes to show that the 'rules' change all the time. So it's back to the drawing board for someone who wants to retire to the UK.


Meadbh, paranoia is never justified by definition. paranoia - definition of paranoia by The Free Dictionary It is an extreme, IRRATIONAL distrust of others. Fear is sometimes justifiable but not paranoia.

In my opinion (and I am entitled to one, we are all entitled to judge and all do so), the fears expressed here regarding some things border on paranoia. Who are you to say their concerns are 'very real'? I can't say they overreact but you can say they don't? It doesn't work that way Meadbh, you don't get to tell me my judgement is wrong and your judgement is right or their judgement is right. You get to disargree with me and have your own opinion and judgement, that's all you get. I am not alone in thinking Americans tend to the paranoid. Do some reading:
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=wtzgVPjXLcGBrAOytoDwDw&gws_rd=ssl#q=americans+paranoid
If you Google the opposite, 'Americans not paranoid' you get the same hits. In other words, there are lot of articles on Americans being paranoid and none saying the opposite.

Regarding my tone. Tone is a sound, it is not written. In all one on one communication, 55% of the message is conveyed through body language, 38% through tone and only 7% through the actual words used. You may THINK you can imply a tone from the written word but in fact you may be wrong in how you perceive it as often as you are right. I am direct in my writing and in my speech. I don't beat around the bush or concern myself overly with being 'pc'. You may well confuse that directness with a 'tone' you don't approve of, but that is something you are guessing at, not something you know to be a fact. So please do not presume to tell me what tone I am using or why.

"Please consider taking a less critical, less confrontational approach." You are incorrect in your judgement Meadbh. Please consider confining your comments to the subject and not making personal remarks about me.

On the contrary, Soujourning, I took great care to criticize your approach and the tone of your comments, not you personally. If only you knew just how judgmental your posts sound! I will not argue further with you, but I am considering adding you to my Ignore list.

 

[LARS]

I think you're referring to this:

You may grant leave to remain if the applicant:
- arrived in the UK with valid entry clearance as a retired person of independent means
- has made the UK their main home
- has a minimum disposable income of their own of £25,000 a year under their control in the UK (net of any overseas or UK tax)
- can demonstrate a close connection with the UK
- has maintained and accommodated themselves and any dependants without working here or abroad and without using public funds.

The way I read the above is that leave to remain may be granted, if the applicant is already in the UK under the old retired person rules. That reflects what is on page 2, which effectively says "if you're here, you can stay, but we're closing the door to new applicants".

I am no lawyer, nor did I read it like I would a contract, but they (UK immigration) spend 40 pages after the referencing of 2008 change, which is an awful lot of pages to say it is no longer available.

But it is more than a bit confusing...

 

[Sojourning]

"I am considering adding you to my Ignore list."

Please do.

 

[LARS]

This has been (and continues to be) an interesting thread at least for me. It would be nice if everyone, who needs it, takes a step back so it does not devolve into something off topic...

 

[Gumby]

Regarding my tone. Tone is a sound, it is not written. In all one on one communication, 55% of the message is conveyed through body language, 38% through tone and only 7% through the actual words used. You may THINK you can imply a tone from the written word but in fact you may be wrong in how you perceive it as often as you are right. I am direct in my writing and in my speech. I don't beat around the bush or concern myself overly with being 'pc'. You may well confuse that directness with a 'tone' you don't approve of, but that is something you are guessing at, not something you know to be a fact. So please do not presume to tell me what tone I am using or why.

"Please consider taking a less critical, less confrontational approach." You are incorrect in your judgement Meadbh. Please consider confining your comments to the subject and not making personal remarks about me.

You appear to believe you are more intelligent than everyone else here. You are not. And if you do not improve your tone, you will be banned. Is that direct enough?

 

[nun]

I was under the impression for the UK that if you are willing to park 2 million Sterling in UK gilts you are good to go?


UK Investor Visa for Migration to the United Kingdom › VISA.UK.COM

Yes you could do that. It;s not impossible to retire to the UK without at EU passport or significant UK ties....just almost impossible. The "retiree of independent means" visa was discontinued a while ago, but if you have a spare 2 million pounds to invest in the UK you can come in on an investors visa....I'm thinking that would be a significant hurdle for most people thinking about retiring outside the US.

FYI for Medicare Part A is free, Part B is about $100/month and then you have to do Parts C dn D or buy a supplementary policy that might cost another $100/month maybe more.

 

[Sojourning]

Gumby, I do not believe I am more intelligent than everyone else here. I do KNOW I am more intelligent than some. I'm here to discuss the SUBJECT of the thread. I know how to stick to the topic.

"I took great care to criticize your approach and the tone of your comments, not you personally." Obviously, meadbh does not know what the word 'your' means. Apparently you don't either since you wrote basically the same thing.

The word 'your' as in 'your approach' and 'your tone' refers to ME personally. Who else could it be referring to? It is not relevant to the subject of the thread and is a personal attack. What are your forum rules about that?

I am happy to stick to the subject but will not tolerate insults by Meadbh or anyone else. Is that direct enough? I know who is breaking the forum rules here.

So here's what I will do. I will stick to the subject of this thread if you both do the same. I am in agreement with LARS, this is an interesting subject that doesn't need to go off TOPIC.

 

[Gumby]

You were warned.

 

[REWahoo]

Let's hope he was intelligent enough to not allow the doorknob to hit him on the way out...

 

[Meadbh]

Well, that was interesting! (Dusts self off). Thank you to the mods for taking charge of the situation.

Now back to regular business:

What do members think about the idea of relocating abroad in retirement if you have never lived abroad before?

I read about people who do this and wonder whether they have any idea what they are undertaking. Visas, permits, customs, language, alienation, unexpected glitches and missing home are just the beginning.

I moved countries several times as a young person in search of a career dream and have no regrets, but when I look back at all the challenges I faced (alone) I am not sure I could motivate myself to do it again at this point in my life.

 

[Accidental Retiree]

Well, that was interesting! (Dusts self off). Thank you to the mods for taking charge of the situation.

Now back to regular business:

What do members think about the idea of relocating abroad in retirement if you have never lived abroad before?

I read about people who do this and wonder whether they have any idea what they are undertaking. Visas, permits, customs, language, alienation, unexpected glitches and missing home are just the beginning.

I moved countries several times as a young person in search of a career dream and have no regrets, but when I look back at all the challenges I faced (alone) I am not sure I could motivate myself to do it again at this point in my life.

I had a hard enough time relocating from Northern California to Southern California, and I'd lived down here before, in the general area. I can't imagine making the adjustments required to retire to another country entirely, especially all the paperwork.

Still, I do have starry-eyed dreams of taking one of those Cunard liners over with a beagle or two in the kennel and renting a place in England for a few months. This thread gave me ideas. (Don't tell DH.)