Too poor to retire; too young to die

[aja8888]

I was dating a woman up until recently that I would guess is heading down the same path.
She admitted she was living "paycheck to paycheck" but still insisted on going out most nights. When she not so subtly suggested she needed new tires for her car. (hint, hint) that I saw the need for my exit. I think this money management style is very common and LBYM is the exception.

Hmmm.....you sound like my stepdaughter's ex-boyfriend. He saw the light and DW wants us to buy the set of tires now.

 

[Options]

But this statistic begs the question: are people working longer because they have to or is it that 65 is the new 55 (people aren't aging as fast).


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No. A plethora of research (which I'm too lazy to repost) has demonstrated that a very high percentage of people retiree before they want to, either because of job loss or serious health condition. For boomers, 65 is definitely not the new 55. Over 40% of boomers are obese (higher than the general population, of which over 33% are obese, over 66% are overweight), with the resulting very poor state of health that comes with that.

See this:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=40%25%20of%20baby%20boomers%20are%20obese

Those over 65 who are working are doing so only because they can.

 

[Major Tom]

LOL, I sent our British friends who were touring the USA in a campervan there as tourists. They thought it was fantastic, especially Salvation Mountain.

Salvation Mountain is great. I spent a wonderful late afternoon and evening there, and finished the day sitting with Leonard in the darkness. As the distant sound of explosions could be heard across the night-time desert air from the military test range, he talked of his excitement. A film crew from Paramount had just been there to film him for his appearance in the film Into The Wild, and he was happy that his message of love was going to reach a wider audience. I went back the next morning and watched him mix straw with clay and water in a small tractor scoop for his building. He was such a unique character.

 

[Sarah in SC]

That's a great story Tom. I'm so glad you got to meet him. I wish I could have--a friend of ours spent several weeks with him years ago, and helped him with his work. Such an interesting man, by all accounts.

 

[Major Tom]

He was so very interesting, Sarah. I think you'd have really enjoyed him. He got to live his life exactly as he wanted, and positively affected many others. They were very fond of him in the nearby town of Niland. He used to travel into Niland from time to to have ice cream. He loved his ice cream trips.

 

[haha]

No reason for you not to.

Also, there's no reason that other people cannot enjoy eating out for less.

It is location dependent. It also depends on what you like to eat.

Much social life goes with eating out. Friends of my GF invited us to a steak dinner at a class downtown place, and a local rep theater afterward. Our meal alone cannot cost less than $150 -$200. I checked the place out for a birthday dinner for GF and figured $250 with appetizer, wine and tip. I cannot get on this merry-go-round, so we will recip with a nice home meal and good wine.

Better more attractive food in more attractive settings is going to cost more. A lifetime of experience will affirm this. But when I am alone and just want a hunger postponement of some enjoyable food downtown with water to drink, I can do this in one place I like for <= $10.

If I get lunch that I like, pleasantly served, for GF and myself for $45-$65 in my neighborhood I'll feel like all is well with the world. Life is short, and besides, what I spend on pleasure the stock market cannot capture from me. We sometime split the cost, and sometimes I buy. If a man is dating, he'll spend a lot on spinning his wheels with sometimes annoying women. It is my pleasure to spend some money on a prize.

Interaction with other people can be abrasive. Some of that can be mitigated or avoided by spending a bit more to upgrade the physical and human surroundings.

Ha

 

[Olbidness]

When I see people like those in the OP article I see that as a cautionary story, but I have to remind myself that being poor is not a character flaw. I've been very blessed to have the opportunity make good money and to learn how to manage it. I don't mind helping someone who truly needs it but yet I don't want to be drawn into the dysfunction. Helping others is a noble act but it truly should be help and not enabling to mismanage at a higher level.

 

[Big_Hitter]

But this statistic begs the question: are people working longer because they have to or is it that 65 is the new 55 (people aren't aging as fast).


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definitely the former - NRD is still set at 65 under IRS code - I simply don't think people can afford to retire

 

[NW-Bound]

It is location dependent. It also depends on what you like to eat.

Much social life goes with eating out. Friends of my GF invited us to a steak dinner at a class downtown place, and a local rep theater afterward. Our meal alone cannot cost less than $150 -$200. I checked the place out for a birthday dinner for GF and figured $250 with appetizer, wine and tip. I cannot get on this merry-go-round, so we will recip with a nice home meal and good wine.

Better more attractive food in more attractive settings is going to cost more. A lifetime of experience will affirm this. But when I am alone and just want a hunger postponement of some enjoyable food downtown with water to drink, I can do this in one place I like for <= $10.

If I get lunch that I like, pleasantly served, for GF and myself for $45-$65 in my neighborhood I'll feel like all is well with the world. Life is short, and besides, what I spend on pleasure the stock market cannot capture from me. We sometime split the cost, and sometimes I buy. If a man is dating, he'll spend a lot on spinning his wheels with sometimes annoying women. It is my pleasure to spend some money on a prize.

Interaction with other people can be abrasive. Some of that can be mitigated or avoided by spending a bit more to upgrade the physical and human surroundings.

Ha

We both like to cook. So we eat out only for special occasions. So, I do not mind paying more, for the decor or surrounding more than for the food, of which it is more difficult for us to be impressed.

On the other side, we have an long time friend going back 40 years. He's in his early 70s now. He always eats out, and never has as much as some fruits or snacks inside his home. This is not his only idiosyncrasy. If you come to visit him, all he would be able to offer is a glass of water from the tap.

Anyway as he eats out at least twice a day, yet he never eats fast food and must go to a sit-down place, he manages to find and frequent all the inexpensive small mom-and-pop joints or diners in his area. He is not rich, though I have reasons to think his networth is somewhere between $1M and $2M. He can be so frugal to the point of being chintzy.

My point is that people find pleasure in different activities, and spend their money accordingly. How other people spend their money can still surprise me, but I no longer ponder how they get there.

PS. About eating as a big part of social life, yes it is very true. That's why we like to host big parties for family, where we spend a lot of time preparing. Occasionally, we also do it for the neighbors up in our weekend 2nd home. People always ask if they can bring something, so that also helps but we make the major dishes.

 

[Danmar]

My point is that people find pleasure in different activities, and spend their money differently. How other people spend their money can still surprise me, but I no longer ponder how they get there.
.

Very true and concisely put. It always surprises me how judgemental people can get when opining on how others spend their money. I couldn't care less. Each person's spending utility function is so personal. How much and on what is only the business of the individual.

Of course on a financially oriented site like this judgements on affordability are appropriate I think, but if the person can afford it, who cares?

 

[2017ish]

... we have an long time friend going back 40 years. He's in his early 70s now. He always eats out, and never has as much as some fruits or snacks inside his home. ...

Anyway as he eats out at least twice a day, yet he never eats fast food and must go to a sit-down place, he manages to find and frequent all the inexpensive small mom-and-pop joints or diners in his area. He is not rich, [-]though I have reasons to think his networth is somewhere between $1M and $2M.[/-] He can be so frugal to the point of being chintzy.

....

This is my mom and her husband. Mid-70s and never cook. She has never been a good cook and hates to do it--and he is no different. Nowhere near the wealth of your friend (maybe 1/10??), but the social checks and small pensions are sufficient. Among others, Bob Evans for breakfast, Casinos for lunch/dinner (particularly the one having the deal that day), and other lunch/dinners at fraternal halls with friends (Eagles, VFW, KofC).

Not my cup of tea (at all), but works for them and they enjoy it.

 

[dvalley]

On the other side, we have an long time friend going back 40 years. He's in his early 70s now. He always eats out, and never has as much as some fruits or snacks inside his home. This is not his only idiosyncrasy. If you come to visit him, all he would be able to offer is a glass of water from the tap.

Anyway as he eats out at least twice a day, yet he never eats fast food and must go to a sit-down place, he manages to find and frequent all the inexpensive small mom-and-pop joints or diners in his area.

You just described me except I'm in my very early 40s. I despise grocery shopping and that's why home cooked food happens very infrequently. Granted I'm getting a small pot belly at this age but overall I'm still skinny and a lightweight 160lbs at 6ft...probably from mal nutrition now lol

 

[marko]

You just described me except I'm in my very early 40s. I despise grocery shopping and that's why home cooked food happens very infrequently. Granted I'm getting a small pot belly at this age but overall I'm still skinny and a lightweight 160lbs at 6ft...probably from mal nutrition now lol

Mom couldn't cook at all. PB&J and spaghetti was about it.

We ate out almost every meal since childhood.

At 86 years young, Mom still eats out breakfast, lunch and dinner. My single, younger brother never got the knack either and they usually go out almost every day for breakfast and dinner. Their idea of 'eating in' is ordering take-out. Seriously.

By the time I was 20, I managed to figure out that the big thing in the kitchen with knobs was called a stove and I learned to cook...really well I might add. Mom isn't sure where I came from.

 

[NW-Bound]

Very true and concisely put. It always surprises me how judgemental people can get when opining on how others spend their money. I couldn't care less. Each person's spending utility function is so personal. How much and on what is only the business of the individual.

Of course on a financially oriented site like this judgements on affordability are appropriate I think, but if the person can afford it, who cares?

The problem with the elderly people covered in the article is that they arguably cannot afford to live as they do, hence they have to do menial jobs at their age, and are in credit card debts. But even then, my earlier point was that it was their prerogative to do so. Their story was interesting and worth a chuckle or two, but hey, it's a free country and they are not kids.

About being this forum being judgmental, I see that people sometimes also go the other way, when someone shows how frugal that he or she can live. Again if they are happy, who am I to say that they are doing it wrong?

About my friend who I said was frugal despite having plenty of money, he indeed spends money on very little else other than eating out 100% of the time, but that makes him happy. His heirs will be very happy, some nieces and nephews as he never entered into a romantic relationship as far as we know let alone having kids.

 

[haha]

The problem with the elderly people covered in the article is that they arguably cannot afford to live as they do, hence they have to do menial jobs at their age, and are in credit card debts. But even then, my earlier point was that it was their prerogative to do so.

The only rub with this is the modern American definition of democracy. "To them according to their (bloated) needs, from you according to your bankroll and docility."

Ha

 

[Walt34]

You just described me except I'm in my very early 40s. I despise grocery shopping and that's why home cooked food happens very infrequently.

Neither one of us likes to cook much but we can follow a recipe if we have to. But if if wasn't for my 8-quart crock pot there's a good chance I'd starve. I'll spend a couple of hours cutting veggies and stuff up, put it in there and I'm done cooking for a couple of weeks. I add some rice when served to make it last longer.

In the summer I make a big salad and eat that for almost a week before it either goes stale or is gone. It takes about an hour to make but amortized over nearly a week that isn't much time per meal.

We usually have some hard boiled eggs available, or nuke a potato, make a simple omelet, or just fried or scrambled eggs, easy stuff like that. No need to make it complicated if one doesn't want to.

 

[NW-Bound]

Mom couldn't cook at all. PB&J and spaghetti was about it.

We ate out almost every meal since childhood.

At 86 years young, Mom still eats out breakfast, lunch and dinner. My single, younger brother never got the knack either and they usually go out almost every day for breakfast and dinner. Their idea of 'eating in' is ordering take-out. Seriously.

By the time I was 20, I managed to figure out that the big thing in the kitchen with knobs was called a stove and I learned to cook...really well I might add. Mom isn't sure where I came from.

Our parents rarely ate out, whether by themselves or taking the family. And when I got married, I ate whatever my wife cooked, and never paid much attention to the food.

In my youth, I subscribed to the philosophy that one eats to live, not lives to eat. It was only when I was already 40, and saw my father's condition in his last years with his feeding tube that I had a revelation. That food is one of the pleasures in life, and just being appreciative of good food does not turn one in to a swine. At that point, I started to get more interested in food, and learned to cook. Up until I was 45, I never touched a piece of raw meat, and I still remember the yucky feeling when I held a piece and learned to cut it the first time.

Anyway, we used to eat out at least once a week when we were young (below 30), and did not have much money. Now, we can afford to eat out more, but have little desire to do so. I enjoy cooking more than eating now.

 

[athena53]

It always surprises me how judgemental people can get when opining on how others spend their money. I couldn't care less. Each person's spending utility function is so personal. How much and on what is only the business of the individual.

Of course on a financially oriented site like this judgements on affordability are appropriate I think, but if the person can afford it, who cares?

"If the person can afford it" is the key here. People who own a few dozen Coach bags, buy diamond collars for their Chihuahuas and eat out every night are good for the economy. There's a segment of that group, though, whose long-term care insurance plan is "spend everything and Medicaid will pay for my nursing home" and who will be reliant before then on subsidized housing, Meals on Wheels, etc. when they could have saved. If you spent your whole life working minimum-wage jobs and raising 4 kids, well, you probably couldn't put much aside. If you bought a new SUV every 3 years and took Mediterranean cruises for your vacation and expect the taxpayers to subsidize your retirement, IMO that's just plain wrong.

 

[timo2]

The food part of this thread made me think of this article from the Onion. Woman A Leading Authority On What Shouldn’t Be In Poor People’s Grocery Carts - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

 

[Sarah in SC]

timo, that is a GREAT Onion article. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Danmar]

"If the person can afford it" is the key here. People who own a few dozen Coach bags, buy diamond collars for their Chihuahuas and eat out every night are good for the economy. There's a segment of that group, though, whose long-term care insurance plan is "spend everything and Medicaid will pay for my nursing home" and who will be reliant before then on subsidized housing, Meals on Wheels, etc. when they could have saved. If you spent your whole life working minimum-wage jobs and raising 4 kids, well, you probably couldn't put much aside. If you bought a new SUV every 3 years and took Mediterranean cruises for your vacation and expect the taxpayers to subsidize your retirement, IMO that's just plain wrong.

Right, but this thread started out discussing a $21 meal. The examples you cite are obvious examples that we can all agree with. There are many of these we see in everyday life.

I was thinking more along the lines of personal tastes ie type of car we buy, clothing, type and frequency of travel, which would not necessarily be too expensive for a relatively well off person. Basically questions of taste within an affordability constraint. Also, in many cases affordability is a matter of opinion. For example is someone who uses and spends an SWR of 5% a spendthrift? Even if it is all on designer bags?

As far as subsidizing someone else's retirement. This is a bit of a hornets nest. Everyone who gets SS or Medicaid is being subsidized to some degree, no? Not being American I should probably pass on this part.

 

[karen1972]

How about her completely unsubstantiated belief that "organic" is healthier?

"Organic" means more expensive. I am shocked how many people have swallowed the notion that it means healthier. This seems to be nothing but marketing, plain and simple.
For those who disagree, don't tell me about your "belief" or your anecdote about how "organic" cured your (eczema, arthritis, irritable bowel, energy level, etc.) or list some litany of the evils of non-organic food. Just show me some actual evidence.



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While there are many "organic" foods which don't really add value.. many things can be made healthier by proper washing, dissolving the wax on foods where pesticides are sealed inside (especially apples).. there are a few foods like strawberries, I'd never eat without buying from a local farm where I knew what was on them...What’s On My Food :: Pesticides on Strawberries . We don't buy anything with colored dye in it...there are mixed studies about its impact on Hyperactivity for children with ADHD.. considering the ADD drug comes to about $7.50/day, paying a few dollars more for dye free food seems cost effective, it doesn't eliminate the need for the drug but it does seem to allow us to skip 1-2 days a week, evidence is difficult because there are so many factors at play but living with someone for years.. you know.

 

[timo2]

How about her completely unsubstantiated belief that "organic" is healthier?

"Organic" means more expensive. I am shocked how many people have swallowed the notion that it means healthier. This seems to be nothing but marketing, plain and simple.
For those who disagree, don't tell me about your "belief" or your anecdote about how "organic" cured your (eczema, arthritis, irritable bowel, energy level, etc.) or list some litany of the evils of non-organic food. Just show me some actual evidence.
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I totally believe in the 'Placebo Effect', which has actual evidence. It is the basis of much of modern medicine, IMHO. If so called 'organics' make people feel better, that's great.

 

[marko]

If so called 'organics' make people feel better, that's great.

They feel better until that "organic" fertilizer (poop) gives them e-coli.
Then they feel worse.
Begging for those in-organic antibiotics.

 

[travelover]

While there are many "organic" foods which don't really add value............

Amazing, but amusing thread drift. It is a little foolish to broad brush organic vs non-organic as it depends a lot on the type of vegetable or fruit considered and where it was grown. A few months back, Consumer Reports had a comprehensive chart showing which foods were problematic based on their propensity to retain pesticides and the type of pesticides used, by country of origin.