Child-free

[LOL!]

Your daughter and your trophy wife look very much alike?

Absolutely, half of my daughter's genes come from my trophy wife of 32 years.

 

[youbet]

Absolutely, half of my daughter's genes come from my trophy wife of 32 years.

You're a lucky guy with two beautiful women in your life!

 

[Khan]

...

But, keep in mind you can end up with some challenging situations if things don't go according to plan. As a for instance, we had our oldest daughter pass away at a young age and that tragedy about mentally ruined DW and me (and our youngest daughter). It's very tough to bury your children.

...

Not that things like this will happen, but life is a crap shoot and no telling when things can go drastically wrong.

There are risks in having children so be prepared.

My brother died of cancer at age 19; messed us up financially and emotionally.

 

[nash031]

Why is the question always phrased as why one chose not to have children? In this day of both spouses working, 50% divorce rate, high unemployment, shouldn't the question be, why did you choose to have children?

I think it is still far, far, far more common for married couples and other couples to have children than not.

 

[aja8888]

I think it is still far, far, far more common for married couples and other couples to have children than not.

Really?

Warning Bell for Developed Countries: Declining Birth Rates

Warning Bell for Developed Countries: Declining Birth Rates - Forbes

 

[des999]

the funny thing, most of the folks that have a very good grasp on their finances tend to think more about having/not having children (probably b/c of the financial aspect). And it seems a lot of people that can't afford children have about 4-5 of them.

I would tend to think the ones who have a good grasp on their finances are exactly the ones who should be having children, not the other way around. We need more children born into these type of households. We have it backwards.

 

[CyclingInvestor]

I always knew I preferred dogs to kids. Got clipped 29 years ago shortly before getting married, and never regretted it. Started adopted pound / rescue dogs shortly thereafter. Still have multiple dogs decades after the marriage ended.

 

[Live Free]

I think you will be happy with either path. I have two boys and while every day with them hasn't always been sunshine and butterflies, I consider them the greatest gifts in my life.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but for sure these boys have cost some big $s and if I had not had them I am sure I could retire much earlier than I eventually will. Also, they take up a lot of your free time. Especially in the young years. I would do it all again, though. We have had so much fun with these boys.

My SIL has a severely disabled child (now a grown adult) who requires 24/7 total care that my BIL and SIL provide. My SIL has not worked since her daughter was born because she is the primary caregiver. Medical costs in their kid's childhood have left them with very little in retirement savings. Once their child became an adult, the state helped pick up the costs for much of her pharmaceuticals, diapers, medical devices, etc. and now my BIL is trying to catch up on their savings. They are in their late 50s and worry about what will happen to their daughter if something happens to them.

I guess my point is that having kids, like all things in life, is a roll of the dice.

The good thing is that in this day and age it is a choice. My parents are both from large families - birth control just wasn't that great, women were very dependent on men, and high paying careers for women were virtually non-existent. Now women are in control of their own destiny and are getting college degrees and advanced degrees at greater rates than men. They are climbing the corporate ladders, starting their own businesses, and can decide when or if to have children. The times they are a changing.

 

[nash031]

Really insightful arguments on both sides -- nothing less than I'd expect on this forum.

One thing I'd point out is that it may be erroneous to assume all parents are glad they are parents. If you Google phrases like "I regret having kids" or "I hate being a parent", you'll see there's a huge group of people out there (mostly women, sadly) who feel enormously trapped or regretful of becoming a parent. It's just that the social disapproval bestowed upon a parent who says he/she wishes otherwise is enormous. Perhaps more scorn than any other thing someone could do.

I have only met one person who will actually admit they wished they didn't have kids. He likes and loves his kids, but in an honest moment he'll tell you he was happy before and doesn't feel any more fulfilled now.

Most every other parent that I've ever asked falls into one of two camps: (1) genuine gushing about children; (2) that moment of pause that makes you think they're convincing themselves of their answer before they tell you they're happy they did it.

Obviously there are tradeoffs if you have kids - rewards and sacrifices - but I have always believed that there are more people out there that would forgo children if they had to do it over again.

That may be what gives me pause the most.

Then again, I am sure there are plenty of people out there who didn't or couldn't have kids that wished they had.

 

[nash031]

Really?

Warning Bell for Developed Countries: Declining Birth Rates

Warning Bell for Developed Countries: Declining Birth Rates - Forbes

Yes, really. 32 percent of GenX women do not have kids. QED...

 

[nash031]

My brother died of cancer at age 19; messed us up financially and emotionally.

DW and I definitely worry about the special needs or possibility of a child dying before us and the impact either one has on our lives. Again, that "selfish" comment applies... but I don't think that's necessarily bad.

 

[Silver]

DW and I definitely worry about the special needs or possibility of a child dying before us and the impact either one has on our lives. Again, that "selfish" comment applies... but I don't think that's necessarily bad.

The choice not to reproduce is not selfish. It's self-aware. Would you adopt a pet that you didn't want to become responsible for? Of course not, and you shouldn't. Same logic with a child.

 

[poorcarver]

Having kids is less of a crap shoot and more of a spin of the roulette wheel. There is one winning number and smaller payoffs if you bet the right color or pattern or whatever is available. There are a lot of ways to lose: handicap or disability, illness, legal trouble, drugs and alcohol to name a few. Then there is the opportunity to raise wonderful children who get killed in our never ending wars. Lots of ways to lose and few chances to win.

I live in an old, established upscale community. Most, not all, most of the grown children are not reproducing. They watched their parent's struggle and want no part of it. My own are clear, no way will they do it.

 

[scrabbler1]

Then again, I am sure there are plenty of people out there who didn't or couldn't have kids that wished they had.

Big differene between didn't and couldn't.

Childless refers to people who want to have kids but are unable to have them (i.e. couldn't). These people wish they had had kids.

Childfree refers to people do not want to have kids whether they are able to or unable to have them (i.e. didn't). These people do not wish they had had kids.

Too many people mistakenly interchange childless and childfree when they in fact describe two vastly different types of people.

 

[Mulligan]

Big differene between didn't and couldn't.

Childless refers to people who want to have kids but are unable to have them (i.e. couldn't). These people wish they had had kids.

Childfree refers to people do not want to have kids whether they are able to or unable to have them (i.e. didn't). These people do not wish they had had kids.

Too many people mistakenly interchange childless and childfree when they in fact describe two vastly different types of people.

My friend and his wife had "couldn't" and "didn't" happen to them with vastly different results... They "couldn't" conceive so they had medical intervention. But the "didn't" plan on having twins. Now the budget is way tighter on them they planned for (their fault) as they cannot afford to have wife work do to high cost of daycare.


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[NYEXPAT]

With my first wife, we were [-]money[/-]career driven and did not have time for kids. Three years after I retired we had our daughter (I was 36) and was glad we waited so I could do everything with her.

With my second wife, I was more hesitant to have a child in my 50's but in retrospect our son now 8 has added so much to our marriage and our lives.

Now, in my 60's and my son is growing, we realize there will be a void in our lives
that has us yearning for another. We are hopeful that 2015 will bring us a new bundle of joy.

 

[youbet]

Too many people mistakenly interchange childless and childfree when they in fact describe two vastly different types of people.

Actually too many people over simplify the meanings of childless and childfree and draw boundaries that in real life are frequently blended. We know folks living lives where some overlap and some are outside of the definitions you propose. It's not as simple as you lay it out............

Additionally, I think the concept of "childfree" has become inappropriately narrow in today's world. The real questions have grown from the simple "should a married couple have a family or not?" to involve same sex couples, single parenting, adoption, foster care giving, interracial marriage and/or child bearing/adoption, government control of child bearing decisions, etc.

It's a big world out there with lots of options beyond should a traditional couple expand their world to include a family. -

Edit: I understand OP's current situation and his desire for discussion which he hopes helps with his decision. Just pointing out that it's a pretty typical, traditional, same old - same old for the past 3 - 4 decades situation. And, there is plenty going on in our, and the world's, social structure involving family and societal patterns that will impact us all, in terms of FIRE, much more that a traditional couple's decision to be childfree or not.

 

[nash031]

Big differene between didn't and couldn't.

Childless refers to people who want to have kids but are unable to have them (i.e. couldn't). These people wish they had had kids.

Childfree refers to people do not want to have kids whether they are able to or unable to have them (i.e. didn't). These people do not wish they had had kids.

Too many people mistakenly interchange childless and childfree when they in fact describe two vastly different types of people.

That's not always true either. With medical intervention, plenty of people who would've been "childless" are now able to conceive and/or have children by other means (not including adoption).

DW and I have pretty much decided that if we choose to try for children, we will not go to extraordinary means. If at some point it becomes clear that God or Mother Nature have dictated that it's not in the cards for us, so be it. In that event, I don't think we'll consider ourselves childless, but of course I am likely understating the emotions involved.

 

[SecretlyFI]

I would say about 75% of the time I regret having a child. We waited many years to do it, had no interest at all and then gradually we both wanted it. DH is very cautious and warned, you never know what can happen. Well, It's true and we are part of the ever growing statistics. The last 12 years have had more anguish, heartbreak, anxiety, marital stress and fatigue than I ever could have imagined. Through it all, you're faced with discussing your problems, and then knowing your child is being talked about, or protecting your privacy and then suffering in silence while you listen to everyone's Disney adventures. And I echo the point about very strong social pressure to perpetuate the Hallmark version of parenting. It infuriates me.

I stand by my decision and own the responsibility that it's delivered. But do heed the advice that you need to be ready to accept whatever comes your way.

By the way, the other 25% of the time I'm consumed by the strongest, warmest love that I could never put into words. So there you have it-full disclosure.

 

[jollystomper]

To me, the choice of whether or not to have children is a personal one, and whatever choice a couple makes is up to them. DW and I chose to have kids because growing up in large families (I am one of 7 and DW is one of 6) we saw both the tough struggles our parents had (the worse was DW losing a brother at a young age) but also the joy they had watching their kids grow up.

We had had both joy and troubles. The worst has been one son who has given us an emotional roller coaster, going from getting a full scholarship to attend a top private university to blowing that scholarship and getting kicked out through bad behavior. That behavior lead him into a crowd and activities that ended up with him serving 18 months in prison. That is not something that makes you feel like a good parent , and I would not wish that experience on anybody . Fortunately since being out he has been on the straight and narrow for 2 years, making enough in a good job to live on his own and now looking at going back to school to complete his degree.

However, we never tried to hide these troubles, and while we know some folks talked about us behind our backs, we developed some very deep friendships with some other couples who have experienced the same thing. The benefit of not having "Disney" kids was learning how many other seemingly "Disney" kids were not, and how grateful many parents were to share each others burdens about that. As much "trouble" as we may think our kids are, others have had it much worse, so we are not complaining.

Financially it certainly delayed us reaching FI, and I could likely have retired 5 years ago. But it was worth it. I didn't have kids I may not have been as motivated to excel at my career and thus achieve the income I have, as providing for them and their future I saw as a big part of my fatherly role.

 

[iam21177]

So, I searched the topic and the latest thread on this was back in 2007. Today, I've read two others who are mid-30s, child-free and intending to stay that way. I became curious...

Background: I am 36, DW is 33. We are presently child-free, but are always discussing the should we/shouldn't we. If we do, we will have two. We have a plan in place that would likely allow us to retire forever at (my) age 42 under our present and forecasted (child-free) financial situation. We have a great start even if we have kiddos, and thus would likely be able to retire late-40s or early 50s.

So, for those forum members who are child-free, was there anything that drove you to that conclusion? Or just a "I don't really want kids?" Or were you in the group that thinks "if I don't KNOW that I want kids, I shouldn't have them?"

Wife and I kinda fall in that last group right now. We wonder if we can be the best parents we can be if we aren't just SURE that we want kids. I would say we favor having kids by a 60/40 margin, but neither one of us will commit to one or the other. We do acknowledge the opportunity cost of NOT having kids, and that's what keeps us in the game (the joy, the opportunity to teach and learn from children, the purpose they give to your life - NOT the "I hope they'll take care of me or keep me company"... you can't guarantee that).

Interested in thoughts, or if I missed a more recent thread on this, point me there!! Thanks!

Was I one of the couples you were thinking of?

I am 37 and my husband is 35. I just never had that desire to be a parent or mother. I say that I just lack the motherhood gene, I was born this way. I'd probably be a great human mom, but I am an excellent dog mom. My love for dogs has lead me to be a volunteer in animal rescue for a decade now. I think I can make much more of an impact in the world for thousands of dogs than I could one kid, frankly, if we're going down the whole "I need a purpose" road.

No one "did anything to me" despite my mother asking if I had that horrible of a childhood to not want kids of my own (my sisters each have 2 kids by the way). It really irks me that child-free marks something wrong, undesirable, I haven't found "the one" to father my children yet (as if I wasn't supposed to be with my husband because he didn't spark my ovaries). Like it is something bad! I still get these comments sadly. The look of disgust and scrunched up faces of confusion when someone asks if I have kids, and I say no... It hurts! Although probably worse for people who do want kids but cannot.

I love all my nieces and nephews dearly and look forward to the day they might want to visit us (we're the cool aunt and uncle that camps, canoes and skis).

I like to use the analogy of "Do you want to be president of the United States?" Everyone I have asked so far emphatically says, "NO way!" Huge job/responsibilities with not enough pay? Doesn't look very fun? And you probably have NO DESIRE to even be president, right? I'm like OK, I don't want to be a parent.

But really, the reasons are not in the excuses. It's just that there is simply NO DESIRE and I think that having that DESIRE is pretty dang crucial (in fact the #1 step) if you're going start procreating! It's the hardest job in the world and it's a true roll of the dice!

If you're kind of ho hum about it, then don't do it. If you always pictured grandkids running up to you, but you kind of have to go through this step if you want to make that happen, then maybe do it (I would not though). You cannot always guarantee that they will produce grandkids for you either. Life will be very hard if that was your originally vision (grandkids running up to you). Maybe volunteer at a boys and girls club?

I have friends who were 42 and 45 and their reason was "We better do it now or else we're really old." And that was it. Because their expiration date was coming up, they decided to utilize their reproductive organs. I don't see that as a real desire to be a parent. One parent loves it but man she is tired all the time, the other parent always pulls us off to the side and says, "Don't do it! They'll ruin your life!"

Back when my H and I were dating, I guess I was kind of unsure. Not on the fence, but more like, "What is my 40 year old self going to want?" I was trying to predict what my future, unknown self was going to desire. Let me tell you, that was not working! I had to use the information that I had right now to make my decisions (H was in the same boat as me), and that was I don't have it in me. We also discussed that if any point one of us all of a sudden has this huge DESIRE to be a parent, then we would reassess stuff.

 

[nash031]

Was I one of the couples you were thinking of?

I am 37 and my husband is 35. I just never had that desire to be a parent or mother. I say that I just lack the motherhood gene, I was born this way. I'd probably be a great human mom, but I am an excellent dog mom. My love for dogs has lead me to be a volunteer in animal rescue for a decade now. I think I can make much more of an impact in the world for thousands of dogs than I could one kid, frankly, if we're going down the whole "I need a purpose" road.

No one "did anything to me" despite my mother asking if I had that horrible of a childhood to not want kids of my own (my sisters each have 2 kids by the way). It really irks me that child-free marks something wrong, undesirable, I haven't found "the one" to father my children yet (as if I wasn't supposed to be with my husband because he didn't spark my ovaries). Like it is something bad! I still get these comments sadly. The look of disgust and scrunched up faces of confusion when someone asks if I have kids, and I say no... It hurts! Although probably worse for people who do want kids but cannot.

I love all my nieces and nephews dearly and look forward to the day they might want to visit us (we're the cool aunt and uncle that camps, canoes and skis).

I like to use the analogy of "Do you want to be president of the United States?" Everyone I have asked so far emphatically says, "NO way!" Huge job/responsibilities with not enough pay? Doesn't look very fun? And you probably have NO DESIRE to even be president, right? I'm like OK, I don't want to be a parent.

But really, the reasons are not in the excuses. It's just that there is simply NO DESIRE and I think that having that DESIRE is pretty dang crucial (in fact the #1 step) if you're going start procreating! It's the hardest job in the world and it's a true roll of the dice!

If you're kind of ho hum about it, then don't do it. If you always pictured grandkids running up to you, but you kind of have to go through this step if you want to make that happen, then maybe do it (I would not though). You cannot always guarantee that they will produce grandkids for you either. Life will be very hard if that was your originally vision (grandkids running up to you). Maybe volunteer at a boys and girls club?

I have friends who were 42 and 45 and their reason was "We better do it now or else we're really old." And that was it. Because their expiration date was coming up, they decided to utilize their reproductive organs. I don't see that as a real desire to be a parent. One parent loves it but man she is tired all the time, the other parent always pulls us off to the side and says, "Don't do it! They'll ruin your life!"

Back when my H and I were dating, I guess I was kind of unsure. Not on the fence, but more like, "What is my 40 year old self going to want?" I was trying to predict what my future, unknown self was going to desire. Let me tell you, that was not working! I had to use the information that I had right now to make my decisions (H was in the same boat as me), and that was I don't have it in me. We also discussed that if any point one of us all of a sudden has this huge DESIRE to be a parent, then we would reassess stuff.

I think you were one of them!

Thanks for your thoughts - very similar to our situation. And we are becoming involved with rescue animals - just rescued our first. That may be the road we go down as well, though I definitely do not want six dogs in my house. We'll go with two and then we've discussed working at the rescue as well.

We do have a niece and five nephews that we see on occasion and we enjoy being around them. Speaking for myself only here, I also enjoy giving them back at the end of the day!

Lots to think about... and appreciate the feedback and opinions from both sides!

 

[rodi]

I can respond to this thread in so many different view points.

I was child free until age 39. (Married 11 months earlier - so no good opportunity prior.) I had my second child at age 41. Despite my AMA (advanced maternal age) both births were complication free. I wouldn't change things - the kids add value to my life, despite being PITAs much of the time.

I relate to the comment about treating your kids as personal lab experiments. One child in particular has offered more challenges than most. (Reactive to red dye 40, had medical and psychological professionals label him with ADHD, Oppositional personality, Depression, Anxiety... the list goes on.) Turns out he's got a genetic mutation on the C677T marker of the MTHFR gene. Vitamins (methylized folate) have made a huge difference. (B vitamins weren't getting to his neurotransmitters because he makes a defective enzyme that breaks them down to cross the blood brain barrier.) So, yeah, he's my own personal lab rat as we have tried to figure out what makes him tick.

My best friend is child-free by choice. Never wanted kids. I totally appreciate that POV. Her life is simpler and less complicated. She's had more flexibility to deal with career and personal life curves. Her husband is also in the camp that kid-free is the life for them. He's a high school science teacher - so he deals with teenagers all day.

My sister wanted children and wasn't able to have them. I offered to surrogate for her and BIL, but they decided that they were content in their child-free existance at that point. My sister gets her fill of kids by being a teacher. (5th grade currently, but has taught K and 2nd - and will be switching to middle school math next year.) I don't think she regrets the choice to forgo children, although it was painful for her when they were actively trying to conceive. She spoils my kids - and that's enough for her.

 

[Maenad]

I realized after DH and I got engaged that while I looked forward to the marriage part, the mom part was a non-starter. I'm someone who isn't interested in the "job" of motherhood, and at 39, haven't heard a single tick from the biological clock.

Given the huge human population currently on this planet, and our negative impacts to the environment, I also don't think that a below-replacement birth rate and slowly declining population is necessarily a bad thing, and I think remaining childfree is a net positive.

That being said, my advice is to avoid having kids until/unless you develop a burning desire to parent and are in stable relationship and financial states. If/when you meet those criteria, go for it. Otherwise, enjoy your life sans kids.

To be honest, I don't understand the common image of those who regret not having kids melodramatically gnashing their teeth and tearing their hair. Sure, it's a serious regret (one that my brother has), but I don't understand the concept of being inconsolable over missing something that you never had in the first place. But since I'll likely never have the desire to have kids, I won't know.

 

[dontworry]

I strongly believe that you should feel a true calling to become a parent before you make the choice to have children. That being said, sometimes both partners don't have the same feelings which can be difficult to deal with.

My desire to be a mom was there from an early age. That was all all I really ever wanted (although I did choose and follow a career path too). Actually one (of the many reasons) my first marriage ended in divorce was because I could see that my ex would not have the ability to be a good father. Too bad I didn't see that before we married but at the age of 21, who knows anything?

Fast forward to my current marriage. DH already had two children and had had a vasectomy because his first wife didn't want more. He was open to pursueing more kids (with me) and he had the reversal surgery. It didn't work. We didn't even go down the infertility treatment road. Just decided to adopt instead. We were both more interested in parenting than passing on our genes . Three adopted children later: best and most wonderful thing we have ever done. Of course there are struggles and trying times but love being a mom to three unique, loving children! My two boys have ADHD and one of them also has learning disabilities. But they are all perfect to me/us. We REALLY wanted children!!! No regrets and would not change it for the world.