For anyone who has bought the bill of goods

[Texas Proud]

LKH.... I will read it tomorrow when I am 'working'

But, I know that some (most?) have a clause in them that will allow more spending if it is voted by the public....

If the public votes it down.. then they DON"T WANT IT... before, the gvmt demanded that they pay for it no matter how much it cost and even if they were lucky enough to vote in new representatives... they usually don't KILL everything so it rachets up and up...

I have a friend that works for the city in their drafting dept.... and he talks about every once in awhile getting a new managing director who is a political hack... and then the work they used to do is put on the back burner for the 'new guy'.... but to tell the truth, that happens in the private sector many times...

I remember one day when we were having a discussion on how bad our department was.... someone asked how we could fix things... I said 'stop making stupid decision after a merger'... we had a great system for planning and reporting, but they threw it out since one group 'won' and like their system... their system could not handle the new load and crapped out... they also got rid of almost all of the people that knew anything... so we were now trying to 'fix' something that was 'fixed' many years ago and nobody was around that 'fixed' it in the first place (except me and a couple of others... but we are being ignored... )...

BTW... I am glad that you like your job... it is not a common thing...

 

[youbet]

Boy, you guys don't read very well!!! I never said I was miserable.

Well....... ya kinda sound miserable LKH!

I think I've been pretty clear that I love my job. I get a lot of satisfaction from being a "GOOD" public employee (or trying to be). I am complaining about something that I think is harmful to my state, and to myself as a taxpaying citizen who also has to utilize state services. I'm angry about the way people bag on the people I work with, yes, but I'm far from needing "anger management." You'd be tired of it too if you constantly had to deal with people who say thoughtless things about the work you've dedicated yourself to do.

That's all part of your job!


OK, as long as you love your job and are happy then sticking around to collect your DBP pension should be easy enough. And, oh yeah, thanks for being concerned that the low pay and benefits will cause us citizens to receive less than optimum service going forward! I mistakenly thought that all your pissing and moaning was for yourself, while actually you were worried about us! My mistake, sorry, and I stand corrected.

 

[Milton]

I re-read LKH’s posts. He (or she?) has posted that s/he is: (1) depressed; (2) angry; (3) frustrated; (4) a slave [to ill-drafted legislation]; (5) “screaming bloody murder”; (6) merely hanging on for the promised land of a pension. But no, not miserable at all!

But yes, I'm getting angry and I'm getting activist.It's not so much for me as for others.I'm one of the lucky ones.I started in with the State early, back when they had regular pay increases that moved people through the scale. I had moved through all the steps before they phased that out. Most of my coworkers came later. They've done excellent work, but they languish at the bottom of the pay scale because the legislature hasn't funded merit increases.

I am always suspicious when someone justifies whinging on the basis that they are concerned about others. Presumably those junior co-workers are legally competent and above the age of majority. They can speak for themselves (voting with their feet, if the politicians are as wrong-headed as LKH suggests) ... they don't need anyone to fight their battles for them.

My advice: stop being a martyr, and focus on the positives in life.

Edited to add: is there not a significant difference between "regular pay increases that move people through the scale" and "merit increases"?

 

[Texas Proud]

Hmmmmm sounds like BS to me.... here is an example...

"TABOR Has Played a Major Role in the Significant Cuts Made in Higher Education Funding

Under TABOR, higher education funding per resident student dropped by 31 percent after adjusting for inflation. "

WHY Funding is supposed to increase by INFLATION and NEW POPULATION... so, unless the number of students have gone out of whack to the populaton of the state.. they should be funded at the same level..

Another one...

"TABOR’s interaction with other areas of the state’s budget has created additional problems. Spending for corrections, for example, has grown substantially faster than the inflation-plus-population formula of TABOR, in part due to strict criminal codes and sentencing laws. Because spending for corrections has grown rapidly, other areas of the budget have been squeezed even more in order to keep overall spending under the strict TABOR limit."

OK.. so let them out... OR, put this to a vote to the citizens.. Like.. Under TABOR, funding for prisons would be XXX, but we need YYY... do you want to be taxed for the extra safety with more prisons?? If this has not happened... then shame on the state politicians...

And finally....

"TABOR’s costs are becoming clear. A wide range of Coloradoans — business leaders, higher education officials, children’s advocates, legislators of both parties, and Governor Bill Owens (R), among others — recognize that TABOR has limited the state’s ability to fund critical services.

“Coloradoans were told in 1992 . . . that [TABOR] guaranteed them a right to vote on any and all tax increases. . . . What the public didn’t realize was that it would contain the strictest tax and spending limitation of any state in the country, and long-term would hobble us economically.” — Tom Clark, Executive Vice President, Metro Denver Economic Development Corporation

“The [TABOR] formula . . . has an insidious effect where it shrinks government every year, year after year after year after year; it’s never small enough. …That is not the best way to form public policy.” — Brad Young, former Colorado state representative (R) and Chair of the Joint Budget Committee

“[Business leaders] have figured out that no business would survive if it were run like the TABOR faithful say Colorado should be run -- with withering tax support for college and universities, underfunded public schools and a future of crumbling roads and bridges.” — Neil Westergaard, Editor of the Denver Business Journal
"

First one is a political hack... the second is a politician... not sure about the third...


Sorry to say, but businesses are run like that ALL THE TIME... if revenue is reduced, they have to CUT... they make decisions all the time where to fund and where to stop funding... there is a limited pot of money to spend...

 

[Milton]

Another discrepancy ... first LKH complains that s/he is being compensated at "85% of market". Then s/he says:

[M]y skillset is so specialized that if I left and tried my luck in the private sector, I'd probably have to start over again

Is is obvious from the above that effectively there is no competing market for LKH's alleged skillset. Which proves my earlier point:

Those complaining about how good others have it presumably lack the skills, or at least the confidence, to apply for similar jobs.

 

[W2R]

But is there any among us who hasn't felt tired, discouraged, miserable, and whiny once in a while? Gee - - Why not cut the guy some slack.

Even though I too am a government employee, I know I've never walked in LKH's moccasins (as the saying goes).

 

[Milton]

At best, complaining is pointless; at worst, it's counterproductive. It alientates friends and family ("poor me, poor me" ... who wants to listen to that?), and can result in a 'victim' mentality, passive-aggression, and other self-sabotaging behaviour.

As you say, we all have bad days. When those happen, a mature person will go for a walk, listen to music, enjoy a nice dinner, watch a movie, etc. ... whatever restores one's spirit.

 

[Texas Proud]

But is there any among us who hasn't felt tired, discouraged, miserable, and whiny once in a while? Gee - - Why not cut the guy some slack.

Even though I too am a government employee, I know I've never walked in LKH's moccasins (as the saying goes).

I am not saying anything about his day, good or bad... only about how he says certain thing are happening with laws meant to control runaway gvmt spending... and then when it DOES.. lets complain...

To tell the truth, I don't have much contact with gvmt employees. Don't use their services much... but, when I do, mostly it is anywhere from OK to pleasant.. a few times I will say a cross word about a bus driver, but usually not to them..

As others have pointed out, the service at the private enterprises have gone downhill significantly... so even changing to another merchant does not help much because it is the new standard....

 

[LKH]

You cant have it both ways....one hand think you are underpaid compared to the private sector vs. your skills arent transferable...

Not true. It's crazy to say that because a person's work is specialized, they should not be paid comparably to people who use the same skills in different ways. My work is similar to investigation, to legal clerks and paralegals, to various types of appraisers, and to a number of other professions. I use the same skills those folks do, and should be paid commensurately. But if I were to jump to those jobs, I could not expect to be paid there as if I had worked in those positions for 20 years. I would have a learning curve as I'd have to apply those skills in different ways and in different sets of circumstances. I suspect that's true of anyone who's worked in a particular field for that long - jumping to a new field, even if it uses the same skills, would typically require some sort of pay cut.

 

[LKH]

LKH.... I will read it tomorrow when I am 'working'

Hah! And WE get dissed for skiving! Sheesh!

But, I know that some (most?) have a clause in them that will allow more spending if it is voted by the public....

True enough. But the public doesn't always grasp what it is that they're voting on. For example, Colorado had a set of TWO that needed to be approved together last year. The voters approved one and denied the other, meaning that while Colorado has approval to keep some money, it cannot completely raise the funding that was needed to fix its roads and bridges, and some 70% of them are in serious need of repair. There's talk of closing a few highways simply because there's no money to keep them in shape, and they took a serious beating through the winter last year. The voters simply didn't understand the 2nd one, which was more difficult to explain.

There's a reason we pay legislators. There's a reason our Founding Fathers did not write the Constitution so that every issue would be brought to a public vote. We need to let the people we elect to do a job, do that job. If we don't like the way they're doing it, we can write letters. We can elect someone else. That's the way the system is meant to work. Legislating via constitutional amendment is foolish. You're asking people who rarely know more than what they've heard on one thirty-second sound bite on TV between bathroom breaks to make decisions that impact the entire State. Inefficient at best. Disastrous at worst.

BTW... I am glad that you like your job... it is not a common thing...

There's some satisfaction in being good at what you do. The work itself is pretty cool, even if the nonsense gets old.

 

[LKH]

I re-read LKH’s posts. He (or she?) has posted that s/he is: (1) depressed; (2) angry; (3) frustrated; (4) a slave [to ill-drafted legislation]; (5) “screaming bloody murder”; (6) merely hanging on for the promised land of a pension. But no, not miserable at all!

You do read in! I think a person can have an area in their life that frustrates them, even makes them angry, makes them want to scream, and still not be miserable. If you can't, then I feel bad for you when everything isn't perfect.

I am always suspicious when someone justifies whinging on the basis that they are concerned about others. Presumably those junior co-workers are legally competent and above the age of majority. They can speak for themselves (voting with their feet, if the politicians are as wrong-headed as LKH suggests) ... they don't need anyone to fight their battles for them.

Exactly! They CAN vote with their feet! That's the dadgummed POINT! Do you not see that if 50% of new employees are voting with their feet, the State is basically bleeding out? For every person that has to be replaced, the State spends about 89% of that position's salary just hiring and training someone new - that's before they are actually effective! That's wasted taxpayer money. I love my job. I love my office. I'm proud of the quality of the work we've done. I hate to see it overcome by inefficiency and incompetence because we can't attract and retain qualified workers. I hate to see the people who do stay, who do choose to accept the mediocre pay because they like to serve, get beat down by crappy attitudes from people who just can't see past the end of their pointy little noses.

My advice: stop being a martyr, and focus on the positives in life.

I guess if it's easier to see me as a whiny martyr than consider another point of view, it's your call.

Edited to add: is there not a significant difference between "regular pay increases that move people through the scale" and "merit increases"?

There's no difference, at least not for us. Merit increases are the only thing that move people through the scale, and those have not been funded for nearly a decade.

 

[LKH]

WHY Funding is supposed to increase by INFLATION and NEW POPULATION... so, unless the number of students have gone out of whack to the populaton of the state.. they should be funded at the same level..

Again, though, TABOR was poorly drafted, at least in Colorado. It works fine, so long as everything stays stable. But if there's a recession, as has been the case a few times over the last decade, TABOR's provisions actually ratchet funding downward, and allow no way for the State to recover when the economy resurges. That's why spending has declined so sharply.

OK.. so let them out... OR, put this to a vote to the citizens.. Like.. Under TABOR, funding for prisons would be XXX, but we need YYY... do you want to be taxed for the extra safety with more prisons?? If this has not happened... then shame on the state politicians...

I believe there was a vote on this. It was turned down. But letting them out would be irresponsible and terrible public policy, not to mention that the first politician to suggest it could kiss re-election goodbye. It's not as simple as you think.

Sorry to say, but businesses are run like that ALL THE TIME... if revenue is reduced, they have to CUT... they make decisions all the time where to fund and where to stop funding... there is a limited pot of money to spend...

Oh, heck no, they don't! If you wanted to run a business the way TABOR makes the State work, you would have to agree that your business can never make more each year than what it made last year, adjusting for inflation and growth. By growth, it means you can expand only exactly as much as needed to serve each new customer. But you cannot profit, because you are not allowed to keep any surplus beyond exactly what you need to serve the customers. Everything else has to be paid back. And, should there be a recession one year, and you end up having to slash prices to keep your customer base, and you operate at a loss that year, well, the next year, even if the economy recovers, you have a new baseline. You can't make more than you made during the recession, plus inflation and growth. You cannot save money to see yourself through those tough times, because again, you are required to refund any surplus. There is not a business on the planet that runs that way, because even the worst businessman alive knows that won't work.

 

[LKH]

Is is obvious from the above that effectively there is no competing market for LKH's alleged skillset.

Honey, there's nothing alleged about it. I do damned good work. But thanks for proving my point.

 

[LKH]

As you say, we all have bad days. When those happen, a mature person will go for a walk, listen to music, enjoy a nice dinner, watch a movie, etc. ... whatever restores one's spirit.

I agree with you, when it's just a bad day. When it's a serious problem, though, a TRULY mature person will speak up and try to change things. Only a fool sees a train wreck coming and decides to go listen to music.

 

[LKH]

One final thought: What folks here don't seem to grasp is that the problem goes beyond just having longer lines and less competent service at the DMV. There are a LOT of jobs in government that, if done poorly, can get people killed. What happens when the State doesn't properly keep up maintenance on bridges and overpasses? Will someone have to die when one caves in, in order to get the people to vote to approve a tax increase to get the work done? Kids die when social services and reg agencies are spread too thin to monitor foster care and child care centers. Patients die when the Health Dept. lacks the manpower or the skills to conduct proper inspections of healthcare facilities. Buildings fall down if the building commission can't afford to hire competent building inspectors. When the Parks and Forests people don't have the money or skill to do their work properly, whole forests are obliterated by pine beetles and wildfires threaten homes and lives. And the problem is, for every year we let this stuff slide, it will be that much more expensive to get back on top of things.

Call me a whiny martyr, but I think it's stupid to just sit back and wait for bad things to happen. I've lived in this state all my life, and it's always been one of the best places to live in the country - until the last ten years. Now, at least in terms of the infrastructure, it's one of the worst - and that's dangerous.

 

[Texas Proud]

Oh, heck no, they don't! If you wanted to run a business the way TABOR makes the State work, you would have to agree that your business can never make more each year than what it made last year, adjusting for inflation and growth. By growth, it means you can expand only exactly as much as needed to serve each new customer. But you cannot profit, because you are not allowed to keep any surplus beyond exactly what you need to serve the customers. Everything else has to be paid back. And, should there be a recession one year, and you end up having to slash prices to keep your customer base, and you operate at a loss that year, well, the next year, even if the economy recovers, you have a new baseline. You can't make more than you made during the recession, plus inflation and growth. You cannot save money to see yourself through those tough times, because again, you are required to refund any surplus. There is not a business on the planet that runs that way, because even the worst businessman alive knows that won't work.

You are getting me wrong... I am talking about different departments in business... take the dept I work in which is real estate... we were just told to reduce our spending by $12 million... now, this was AFTER they told us to reduce the budget TWICE when it was being created by $100 million.. we have inflation, we have contracts etc... but our pot of money is being cut... is it law, NO, but it is being cut none the less..

As for your example of 'bad' law... IF there is a recession, that does not mean there is 'deflation'.. and if there is deflation, then you would assume that the cost of buying something has gone down... again... I don't see the problem with LIMITING how much the gvmt can spend... and it is not being held FLAT.. it is just limiting the growth... and, if it is SO hard to explain to the citizens about spending money.... then it should not be spent... I can tell you that almost all school bond elections around here get voted in... most road and other infrastructure ones also.. and I don't know of a single jail bill that has been defeated... so if the citizens of your state are so stupid not to spend money... I am sorry... still doesn't mean the law is bad..

 

[lets-retire]

There's a reason we pay legislators. There's a reason our Founding Fathers did not write the Constitution so that every issue would be brought to a public vote. We need to let the people we elect to do a job, do that job. If we don't like the way they're doing it, we can write letters. We can elect someone else. That's the way the system is meant to work. Legislating via constitutional amendment is foolish. You're asking people who rarely know more than what they've heard on one thirty-second sound bite on TV between bathroom breaks to make decisions that impact the entire State. Inefficient at best. Disastrous at worst.

I agree. It sounds like the politicians weren't doing their jobs and the public decided they were going to limit the ability of the politicians to spend their money. Some your states current problems can probably be laid at the feet of the politicians. Think about it, if you were a politician and wanted to have your free spending ways back, how better to do it than really foul up the law that was enacted to stop you from spending? It sounds like the amendment was not the best and the politicians are working to make it fail, rather than make it succeed. Eventually a rise in public sentiment will occur and a movement to repeal the amendment, will gather steam.

 

[Milton]

It's crazy to say that because a person's work is specialized, they should not be paid comparably to people who use the same skills in different ways. My work is similar to investigation, to legal clerks and paralegals, to various types of appraisers, and to a number of other professions. I use the same skills those folks do, and should be paid commensurately.

My work occasionally requires me to demonstrate skills used by world-famous actors, who are paid many millions a year. But I suspect that I would have a difficult time arguing for a commensurate raise.

Only a fool sees a train wreck coming and decides to go listen to music.

If a train wreck is coming, get off the track. Only a fool stays in a job (or a state) that he or she thinks features conditions - on balance - below those available elsewhere.

When it's a serious problem, though, a TRULY mature person will speak up and try to change things.

You might benefit from reading Harry Browne's book, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World: A Handbook for Personal Liberty.

Sounds like you are caught in a combination of the 'Utopia Trap', 'Despair Trap', 'Unselfishness Trap', 'Burning Issue Trap', and 'Previous-Investment Trap'.

 

[bssc]

Colorado's citizens haven't learned their lesson, though. They recently voted in another amendment that prohibits any government official or their family from receiving gifts valued over $50 in any year from any source other than family and close personal friends on special occasions. The idea - cutting back on what amounts to bribes of public officials - is not a bad one. But from what I hear, there's concern that this thing may keep government employees' kids from receiving college scholarships. Not to mention, it still might not do anything to stop bribes, since it's going to be difficult to define "close personal friend" in any meaningful way.

My dad was a Foreign Service Officer and I remember him asking if I had received any gift over $25 because he had to report it.

It was an awful lot of paperwork and the people knowing taking bribes aren't going to report it. However, I guess it makes people feel good because they have the illusion of action.

 

[ERD50]

My work occasionally requires me to demonstrate skills used by world-famous actors, who are paid many millions a year. But I suspect that I would have a difficult time arguing for a commensurate raise.

LOL! Are you in sales? Ha, I guess every job requires some Academy Award acting from time-to-time!

Sounds like you are caught in a combination of the 'Utopia Trap', 'Despair Trap', 'Unselfishness Trap', 'Burning Issue Trap', and 'Previous-Investment Trap'.

Wow, that's a lot of traps. I see that those are from Browne's book - I'll want to check that out myself. Thanks.

-ERD50

 

[Milton]

Wow, that's a lot of traps. I see that those are from Browne's book - I'll want to check that out myself. Thanks.

It's a pretty good book. I certainly don't live my life strictly according to his principles ... but there is considerable wisdom in much of what he says.

• Utopia Trap: The belief that you must create better conditions in society before you can be free.
  
• Despair Trap: The belief that other people can prevent you from being free.
  
• Unselfishness Trap: The belief that you must put the happiness of others ahead of your own.
  
• Burning Issue Trap: The belief that there are compelling social issues that require your participation.
  
• Previous-Investment Trap: The belief that time, effort, and money spent in the past must be considered when making a decision in the present.