Is MBA program worth the cost?

[Nords]

To each their own, for sure!  But after seeing college buddies who chose the liberal arts paths, most wish they had done something more (financially) productive during college. Don't get me wrong, I can understand and appreciate the value of a liberal arts education (I obtained a BA as well as my BS in engineering).

Funny, all those years of developing their critical thinking skills and they still can't figure out how to get a job.

Gimme an engineering knuckle-dragging degree any day. I'll save the liberal arts stuff for ER.

 

[Martha]

Funny, all those years of developing their critical thinking skills and they still can't figure out how to get a job.

Teaching or law. Simple.

 

[Gumby]

I'd refrain from saying anything to anyone about what to do in college.

 
I would offer my opinion only if they asked.  Since they haven't asked, I haven't opined.  I agree that each must make his own choice. If you major in something solely because someone else tells you to do so, you won't be happy.  But it can't hurt to hear the options.

 

Like Martha, I majored in philosophy and considered graduate school.  Two years later I finally went to law school....

I see a common thread -- liberal arts degree followed by law school or a PhD so that you can teach.  If you don't follow up a liberal arts degree with one of these, you may be in for tough sledding in the job market.  Therefore, by choosing to major in philospohy, you are virtually locking yourself into some form of graduate/professional school, and quitting halfway though the process is worse than never having started. 

Of the two post-grad paths, it is my uninformed opinion that a starting lawyer will generally earn more than an associate professor of philosophy.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

probably good to have the proper degree to practice medicine. maybe others open some doors. but mostly, like anything, it depends on what ya do with it.

i've got a cousin who was written up in a national mag as part of a story on what people are doing with their phd's, he was delivering ups packages (now he's a publisher). a drinking buddy from highschool  started with conversion vans, then got a used car lot, now has a few mercedes dealerships & a pretty little downeast cruiser. a friend who did great at rutgers now lives in squalor.

i have a good friend who started off repossessing cars with no degree and now makes 6 figures in the auto industry while another friend got her masters then worked directly for an x-president then a mayor of a major city and is now at a major corporation.

me? i didn't even know college was for getting a degree. i thought it was just an extension of summer camp.

 

[Caroline]

For the record, if Berkeley phoned me to demand that I return either the Philosophy degree or the MBA, I'd give up the latter -- in a heartbeat.  

Yes, the MBA has allowed me to make a lot more money.  I'm glad I have it.  

But the Philosophy degree expanded my mind and using the thinking skills it taught me bring enjoyment to my life every single day.  The MBA feeds my body, but logic and philosophy feed my soul.  I don't know how you put a price on that.

If I had gone the safe route and taken "Engineering, computer science, pure or applied sciences, nursing, or business/accounting" I'd probably have shot myself by now.  I've taken computer science and accounting courses to increase my understanding of my job and yes, I do pretty well at them.  But I couldn't do them every day or care about them -- I'm just not that kind of animal.  

I suspect that the engineers on this board feel the same way about liberal arts, and god bless them, one and all.  The key is to do what suits you -- you cannot fit a square peg into a round hole and expect the peg not to eat its heart out, eventually.

I think we are all doing more or less the right thing for ourselves.  Otherwise, we'd be doing something else!

 

[Martha]

Some jobs/careers for philosophy majors, from the University of Minnsota in Duluth:


stand up comedy (Steve Martin)          nanny*
deputy sheriff in Colorado*                      stock broker*
work in advertising                     run tropical fish store*
teach K-12 *                           psychiatrist*
librarian*                              pol. campaign worker*    
minister*                               computer salesman
lawyer*                                 casino surveillance
go to Medical School                    become judge*
clerk N.D. Supreme Court*               playwright*
computer weather forecasting            write books*
Natural Resource Research Institute*    become Pope
movie star (Harrison Ford)              etc. etc.
psychologist
Math  professor*
work on Hospital Ethics review boards
work for Proctor and Gamble*
chief of staff for U.S. Senator
college administrator*
housewife and mother*
poet (T.S. Eliot, others)*
write, direct, star in films (Woody Allen)
teach at Duluth area junior college*
computer programmer
work for Pepsico*
own and run largest Minnesota Optical company
researcher in Library of Congress
dancer/choreographer*
sell real estate
publisher's representative
staff member U.S. House of Representatives*
U.S. Secretary of Education (Wm. Bennett)
design and produce word processor software (Nota Bene)
publish a magazine
cook in a Grand Marais restaurant*
military strategy consultant to Pentagon
social worker*
teach English in Japan*
physical therapy*
sell music synthesizers for R.A. Moog*
join U.S. Marine Corp.*
television/film comedy (various Monty Python members)
executive at National Endowment for Humanities
Computer Science professor (at UMD and elsewhere)*
run dry cleaning business
work for startup computer company in Twin Cities
analyze data for various state governments in Twig, Minnesota*
go to grad school in French literature*
be philosophical about whatever they do (*?)

 

[Gumby]

That Pope thing sounds like a pretty good gig.

 

[justin]

Maybe we all should have gotten a history degree from the University of North Carolina. I hear "being Michael Jordan" was a pretty good occupation for at least one of the program's graduates. Anecdotal evidence can "prove" anything.

Not majoring in Philosophy (or other liberal arts) doesn't mean you can't take courses in the field or study it on the side. I know my high school, undergrad and grad/professional curricula included plenty of "philosophy" content. Granted, not as much as someone who pursued a B.A. in Philosophy would have seen.

Point is, I view college as a practical place to learn how to make a good living. That must be where we disagree. I think a number of my professors also disagreed with my feelings as well.

When I send my kids out into the world, I intend to do what I can to show them that the correct path in college is one where they can make a good living (whatever they do). If they want to sit around and read the classics on the side and discuss the minutiae of existentialism and nihilism, fine. Short of getting a PhD then teaching or a JD then practicing law, the options are limited in my opinion.

Spiritual and intellectual enlightenment doesn't have to come from a person behind a podium in a college lecture hall.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I think i'll make it easy on Gabe. I'll pay for any degree that will help him get a job or better pay. Anything else he wants to do, he's welcome to undertake at his own expense.

 

[justin]

I think i'll make it easy on Gabe. I'll pay for any degree that will help him get a job or better pay. Anything else he wants to do, he's welcome to undertake at his own expense.

Brilliant minds think alike!

"Dear Daughter,

Below is a list of the approved majors you may pursue with my money at your choice of the two following state schools. Everything else everywhere else is of course available through self-funding.

..."

 

[Caroline]

Point is, I view college as a practical place to learn how to make a good living.  That must be where we disagree.

I couldn't agree with you more, Justin.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

  Brilliant minds think alike!

"Dear Daughter,

Below is a list of the approved majors you may pursue with my money at your choice of the two following state schools.  Everything else everywhere else is of course available through self-funding.

..."

I don't see anything wrong with that approach at all.  I'd also probably set a grade requirement which if not met would lead to a cutoff in tuition funding after a probation period.  I'm all for the "college experience", but my kids had better learn some employable skills (and get good grades) in exchange for four years and $50k-$100k of my money.

 

[justin]

I couldn't agree with you more, Justin.

I'm glad we agree.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Hey, I agreed with him first!

 

[Martha]

I think i'll make it easy on Gabe.  I'll pay for any degree that will help him get a job or better pay.  Anything else he wants to do, he's welcome to undertake at his own expense.

 Brilliant minds think alike!

"Dear Daughter,

Below is a list of the approved majors you may pursue with my money at your choice of the two following state schools.  Everything else everywhere else is of course available through self-funding.

..."

I don't see anything wrong with that approach at all.  I'd also probably set a grade requirement which if not met would lead to a cutoff in tuition funding after a probation period.  I'm all for the "college experience", but my kids had better learn some employable skills (and get good grades) in exchange for four years and $50k-$100k of my money.

Gee you are all tough guys.  

I doubt if we all will be posting here in 20 years, but I sure would love to hear CFB and Justin, and Jay (if you end up with kids) talking about what their kids are doing in school.    But all is well, Gabe is in law school and wants to be a prosecuting attorney. He is engaged to Wab's daughter, who is a concert pianist.  Oh.  But Gabe's  little sister, she wants to be an artist or maybe a novelist. She just changed her major.  Again!  

Justin's daughter just graduated with a  degree in social work and is working for former president John Edwards at the Center on Poverty at the UNC school of law.  

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Somewhere between being having wab for an in-law and 'gabes little sister' I let out a little shriek.

 

[justin]

Justin's daughter just graduated with a degree in social work and is working for former president John Edwards at the Center on Poverty at the UNC school of law.

Time will only tell...

 

[kat]

Of the two post-grad paths, it is my uninformed opinion that a starting lawyer will generally earn more than an associate professor of philosophy.

You could, of course, be right. But I never once chose a job or career based on my pay. And I did fine anyway.

 

[kat]

I see a common thread -- liberal arts degree followed by law school or a PhD so that you can teach. If you don't follow up a liberal arts degree with one of these, you may be in for tough sledding in the job market. Therefore, by choosing to major in philospohy, you are virtually locking yourself into some form of graduate/professional school, and quitting halfway though the process is worse than never having started.

Actually, I finally went to law school two years later because I wanted the two years to make my own choice, not because Dad, Grandpa, brother, uncle, cousins, did it before me.

I did not get a PhD in philosophy despite all the encouragement because I did not need it to work in a soup kitchen, which was my first job choice after college.

I'm so grateful for Mom and Dad. It's my life, not theirs, and they know that -- most of the time. Dad did say if I went to such and such law school (his alma mater) he'd pay for it. I wanted to go someplace else, so I paid for it. So what.

 

[Gumby]

..

 

[setab]

Frankly, I think going to college to get a good job is one of the poorest reasons to go. Go to college to get an education, get away from home, learn how to take care of yourself. or learn what your alcohol tolerance is. If you want a good job, start a business. We Boomers were always told that if we got an education, we would make more than those who didn't. Then we got theory, philosophy and liberal arts morality (loved them all by the way). We didn't get anything that taught us how to save, invest or balance a check book. We also didn't get jobs that made us more money. In short, we were sold a bill of goods. Bought it anyway.

setab

 

[justin]

Frankly, I think going to college to get a good job is one of the poorest reasons to go.

....

If you want a good job, start a business.

....

We also didn't get jobs that made us more money.

Nobody is saying you can't party your a$$ off in college, but if you're gonna spend 4 years of your life doing something, it'd be nice to have that followed by a well-paying career (instead of 2-5 more years of grad/professional school and the accompanying partying - and loans).

Re: starting a business instead of going to college - I can only imagine the bitter disappointment and frustration that the typical high school grad with minimal real world skills and no college education would experience after starting (and quickly ending) their first business venture.

Endless statistics have shown that college grads make much more than high school grads, even factoring in the 4 years of partially lost earnings.

 

[Craig]

Not always, but I sometimes find that those who extol education for education's sake, and to hell with the practicality of it ... sometimes have safety nets others didn't have. If the family is there for you when you fall / fail it can feel differently from when there is no home to return to, and you either swim or drown on your own.

I was in the "no home to return to" situation, and it was either get very, very practical, or expect a very tough life ... ergo, an accounting degree, followed by the MBA. Gave me the means to raise a family, and now close to ER, and my spare time is for my less practical avocations. It is possible to get an education that helps you think and enjoy life (e.g. electives, night classes, etc.), while also covering the practical bases.

 

[justin]

Is education intrinsically valuable or instrumentally valuable? It can be both.

 

[setab]

Justin,

Again, I cannot disagree with that, and, therefore, must agree. Also, all I'm saying is that college is a time to explore and learn...about lots of different things. When you really examine a lot of the course work, it is pretty theoretical and pie in the sky stuff. You really learn how to make a living when you get out and do it.

As for those statistics...I'm not certain they are a fair measure of anything. They include in the non college group the large mass of people who never intended to further their skills and/or education and never planned to do anything to get higher paying jobs. All I know is I did tax returns for a lot of trucki drivers when I was in private practice and almost all of them made more than I did. But, maybe that was more a reflection on me than them.

setab