Should I Stay or Should I Go (Mil Retention)II

[utrecht]

Im not going to comment on the original question because I think just about every aspect has already been covered. The one thing I would like to comment on is the government pension issue. We've had this discussion of government / military pensions and their fairness a million times. Ive heard a lot of people say "if I could go back and do it again, it would be a no brainer to get a government job with a pension". But as you can see from the perspective of someone actually living through it in real time, its no where near that easy. There's a reason that military / police / fire and other jobs still have a great pension. Doing those jobs for 20-25 years is one of the hardest things someone will ever have to do. The stress it puts on relationships, the way it ages you prematurely in a lot of cases, the constant uncertainty of life changing events such as what country you will be sent to next or if you will be shot at after lunch, are things that someone who has never done it, can never fully understand. Anyone able to do those things for that long deserves to be rewarded if they can actually live through it.

PS..I'm obviously not talking about government clerical jobs which should be catagorized totally differently and compensated on a totally different scale.

 

[BLS53]

I retired over 16 years ago, and having officers as controllers is a new concept to me. Besides the Navy, I knew Air Force, Marine, and Army controllers during the course of my career. The only officers involved were usually grounded aviators, who assumed the role of ATC division officers while awaiting further assignment or release from active duty. There was a LDO and Warrant Officer program, but these were only available for a select few controllers later in their careers, and strictly management billets. There was never a way to enter the military as an officer, and become an air traffic controller. I've never seen an officer "work traffic".

 

[ATC Guy]

I retired over 16 years ago, and having officers as controllers is a new concept to me. Besides the Navy, I knew Air Force, Marine, and Army controllers during the course of my career. The only officers involved were usually grounded aviators, who assumed the role of ATC division officers while awaiting further assignment or release from active duty. There was a LDO and Warrant Officer program, but these were only available for a select few controllers later in their careers, and strictly management billets. There was never a way to enter the military as an officer, and become an air traffic controller. I've never seen an officer "work traffic".

AFSC of 13M in the USAF. Primary duty is not ATC but it is one of the largest aspects of our job. Very small career field about 300 AF wide. We get full ATC certs just like our enlisted but our day to day job is not ATC.

 

[ATC Guy]

I just read another post by a military guy who is having to exit the service with five years to go to make 20. He will have to do 5 years in the reserves in order to get his military retirement.

I think the lesson is that when you are young and early in any career, the future looks limitless. You speak of doing your 20 years as if that was a certainty. Not much is certain any more. Even the FAA may be subject to future technological changes that could reduce the need for human intervention in ATC work.

Finally, neither the military or the FAA offer "high paying jobs". Certainly, these institutions pay more than some civilian careers. However, many civilian occupations do offer "high pay" which I consider to be at least a six -figure income.

Having done a variety of things in my working life, some of which paid well, doing something you really enjoy is the most rewarding path to take regardless of how much it pays.

Steve

I read the same post and had the exact same thought. I have sort of made the military pension a guarantee in my head if I stay and that opened my eyes.

Reference your comment on high paying jobs, the FAA pays pretty big depending on where you work. Most facilities I would be shooting for would be starting after training in the 6 figures without including overtime and other additional pays (another big draw to leaving the AF).

 

[Nords]

There was never a way to enter the military as an officer, and become an air traffic controller. I've never seen an officer "work traffic".

Not only that, but if a Navy officer touched the buttons then any Navy enlisted would be entitled to smack their hands off the controls.

One of the submarine force's running jokes was that the only piece of gear the officers were allowed to operate was the periscope-- and it was perpetually breaking, leaking, or spraying.

 

[BLS53]

AFSC of 13M in the USAF. Primary duty is not ATC but it is one of the largest aspects of our job. Very small career field about 300 AF wide. We get full ATC certs just like our enlisted but our day to day job is not ATC.

Thanks for that information.

Way back, with your original introduction, I assumed you were enlisted. Given your officer status, I would recommend the military over the FAA.

The variable is I don't know how intolerable the deployments to the Middle East are these days. What people I know on active duty say it's pretty bad. Navy AC's, in some instances, have been pulled out of their rating to support the other services. What I read about the Air Force, seems to concur with this issue. I think under these circumstances, a 20 year career wouldn't look as attractive.

I served in the period between the Vietnam War and the involvement in the Middle East. Compared to other specialties,military ATC was a relative cake walk. In the Navy, the sea/shore rotation was heavily biased in favor of shore duty. Out of a 20 year career, AC's usually spent 3 years aboard a carrier, 3 years at some place like Guam or Iceland, and the remaining 14 years at a stateside NAS in a suburban setting. What changed that significantly was the BRAC's of the early to mid 1990's, that closed many of the stateside NAS's. Resulting in a drastic reduction of AC billets as part of the drawdown. Followed by offers of separation bonuses and 15 year retirements. If not for these circumstances, I would have probably hung around for 30.

 

[BLS53]

Not only that, but if a Navy officer touched the buttons then any Navy enlisted would be entitled to smack their hands off the controls.

One of the submarine force's running jokes was that the only piece of gear the officers were allowed to operate was the periscope-- and it was perpetually breaking, leaking, or spraying.

At a NAS, ATC divisions were fairly isolated from the rest of the command. Usually with a Chief running things. There was a requirement for an officer to be assigned, but most often it was a young LT who had lost their flying status, and were fulfilling the remainder of their active duty obligation. Under the circumstances, they were often unobtrusive, and just wanted to get out of the Navy.

 

[ATC KH]

At a NAS, ATC divisions were fairly isolated from the rest of the command. Usually with a Chief running things.

It's similar in the USAF for ATC as well. A typical rank breakdown for an ATC facility in the USAF:

E-2 to E-4: line controllers/trainees
E-5 to E-6: watch supervisors/senior controllers (controller in charge)/ in charge of training or standards and evaluations/assistant chief controller
E-7 to E-9: chief controllers, i.e. in charge of the overall facility.

13Ms (at least in an AOF position) are responsible for the overall operation of the airfield. However, the technical expertise is provided by enlisted for both ATC and airfield management. In fact, new 13Ms no longer receive full ATC facility ratings. From what I was told, the argument was that 13Ms don't spend enough time performing ATC duties to warrant the time it takes for a facility rating.

 

[ATC Guy]

It's similar in the USAF for ATC as well. A typical rank breakdown for an ATC facility in the USAF:

E-2 to E-4: line controllers/trainees
E-5 to E-6: watch supervisors/senior controllers (controller in charge)/ in charge of training or standards and evaluations/assistant chief controller
E-7 to E-9: chief controllers, i.e. in charge of the overall facility.

13Ms (at least in an AOF position) are responsible for the overall operation of the airfield. However, the technical expertise is provided by enlisted for both ATC and airfield management. In fact, new 13Ms no longer receive full ATC facility ratings. From what I was told, the argument was that 13Ms don't spend enough time performing ATC duties to warrant the time it takes for a facility rating.

This is true for ATC ratings. We get a certification in each facility but not a full facility cert. For example, approach assist only in RAPCON vs all positions. Luckily for me I fell under the old program and have my CTO and approach ratings. As long as I maintain currency for 52 weeks I am FAA eligible as I read it.

 

[ATC Guy]

Update

Just wanted to update you all on DW and I's decision making in the process. We recently had a bad experience with the assignments officer (sound familiar Nords?) where he mistakenly tagged me for a 1 year remote (without DW) to Korea, short notice. Situation resolved itself as he realized he made a mistake but it sent a shock through my wife and I. With this information we are near certain that we will separate at the end of our commitment (2.5 yrs left).

Despite the overwhelming benefits the military provides (20 yr retirment, virtually free healthcare, etc.) there is a reason there is only 20 years to a full pension and health benefits, and we felt that more than ever recently. For those who can live that lifstyle for 20 years of moving every 2-3, leaving family consistently for long periods of time, and constantly not knowing what's coming next - more power to you. My wife and I realized this is not for us (long term at least).

In the meantime, I will obviously do the best job I can, but I do look forward to moving on to a more stable lifestyle. We'd love to move back to our hometown where all of our family lives, but I'm not sure if the economy will provide the financial means to do so.

We are getting close to having children, and DW wants to be home with them until they go to school. That puts a lot of pressure on me to earn enough to provide for them and sock money away for retirement, which sometimes I wonder if this is possible.

I hope this helps anyone else in a similar situation to show what our thought process has been like.

 

[REWahoo]

We recently had a bad experience with the assignments officer (sound familiar Nords?) where he mistakenly tagged me for a 1 year remote (without DW) to Korea, short notice. Situation resolved itself as he realized he made a mistake...

You are considerably more adept at 'convincing' assignments officers of mistakes than I was when I got tagged (and sent) on a one year remote to Korea, sans DW. You must have pictures.

 

[ATC Guy]

You are considerably more adept at 'convincing' assignments officers of mistakes than I was when I got tagged (and sent) on a one year remote to Korea, sans DW. You must have pictures.

Haha. Lucky for me, convincing was minimal as it was a true mistake.

 

[Nords]

Gosh, where to start.

Just wanted to update you all on DW and I's decision making in the process. We recently had a bad experience with the assignments officer (sound familiar Nords?) where he mistakenly tagged me for a 1 year remote...

I'm still waiting to hear of a "good" experience from the assignment officer. Last time I got to go to a really good duty station, before I could get orders there I had to get married to someone else who'd be stationed there. Luckily for me my girlfriend (v3.0 at the time, later upgraded to spouse v1.0) was already holding those orders. Or at least she tells me all the time how lucky I was.

... (without DW) to Korea, short notice.

Could've been worse-- for your spouse. He could've sent you both for 2-3 years on an accompanied tour! I've heard that COMNAVFORKOREA Chinhae is really nice duty. Or so I've heard.

Situation resolved itself as he realized he made a mistake but it sent a shock through my wife and I. With this information we are near certain that we will separate at the end of our commitment (2.5 yrs left).

Hopefully that's to be interpreted as separating from the military, not separating from your spouse. But after an assignment officer's phone call like that, I could certainly appreciate her point of view.

Despite the overwhelming benefits the military provides (20 yr retirment, virtually free healthcare, etc.) there is a reason there is only 20 years to a full pension and health benefits, and we felt that more than ever recently. For those who can live that lifstyle for 20 years of moving every 2-3, leaving family consistently for long periods of time, and constantly not knowing what's coming next - more power to you. My wife and I realized this is not for us (long term at least).

I guess the good news is that you two got to talk your way through the emergency & casualty procedures before the drill set began. This is tremendously valuable experience to you as you go through the next few years. "Hey, honey, I know it looks bad but this is nothin'. Remember when the assignment officer called to send me to Korea? Ha ha!"

This would be a really really good time for the two of you to attend TAP together, while you're still childless. A lot of information buzzes by you in that seminar room. Between the two of you you'll both catch the important points and cover whatever the other misses. And once you're parents, you may look back on TAP as your last adult conversational time together.

I made it to 20 but spouse only made it to "almost 18", yet between us we had 19 moves.

We are getting close to having children, and DW wants to be home with them until they go to school. That puts a lot of pressure on me to earn enough to provide for them and sock money away for retirement, which sometimes I wonder if this is possible.

The stupidest advice I've ever heard is "It'll all work out."

What's even stupider is the realization that it really all does work out, because you'll persevere to make it happen. You have the skills, the tools, and the experience. The bar is just not that high. Let me know if you want the personal contact info for my classmate Lee Cohen at Lucas Group. He likes finding jobs for guys like you because... it's just not that hard to find jobs for guys like you. Especially if you're willing to work outside the FAA.

Having snarked my way through all of that, I'll suggest that you may still want to consider the AF Reserve or ANG. I've heard that the Navy Reserve is guaranteeing no deployments for the first two years, and regular rotations after that (a deployment during the fourth or fifth year). I don't think DoD is going to have the money to deploy anybody anywhere for a few more years. You could dip your toe in, decide whether you like the unit in your area, and then go IRR if you're not happy. If you have a five-year active-duty commitment then does that mean you also have a three-year Reserve commitment, even if it's just IRR? That's the way it usually is for the service academies but I don't know if all commissioning programs require that Reserve kicker.

The "fair disclosure" side is that people have suggested that doing 15 years in the Reserves/Guard for a pension is a longer-term pain than doing 8-10 years for that benefit. Keeping that "spare tool" handy could mean that you never actually need to use it, and you may have just wasted your time keeping it handy.

Last month I collected up a bunch of LinkedIn posts from the "Naval Officer" group and put them up on the blog:
Should you join the Reserves or National Guard? | Military Retirement & Financial Independence

You may have a similar LinkedIn group available to you, and they could give you even more [-]confusing[/-] valuable input.

This may be a good time for your spouse to get herself a copy of "1001 Things To Love About Military Life"...

 

[ATC Guy]

Hopefully that's to be interpreted as separating from the military, not separating from your spouse. But after an assignment officer's phone call like that, I could certainly appreciate her point of view.


I guess the good news is that you two got to talk your way through the emergency & casualty procedures before the drill set began. This is tremendously valuable experience to you as you go through the next few years. "Hey, honey, I know it looks bad but this is nothin'. Remember when the assignment officer called to send me to Korea? Ha ha!"

Haha, yes, separating from the military not from my spouse. Although notification of a remote to Korea made for a long 24 hours, it brought us a little closer together.

I really appreciate your insight Nords, as you fully understand the situation. It’s funny because we ended up getting our #5 base of preference choice out of 5, and prior to hearing about Korea would have been disappointed but now we are extremely grateful. Funny how a little perspective changes everything.

I am really not as closed minded to the FAA as I once was, although it would be an ideal situation as far as pay and a good pension system (assuming it lasts). I do still have a couple years on my military commitment so it is probably a little soon for TAP and making contacts with career placement firms, but I will more than likely take you up on that when it gets a little closer. Are these firms pretty successful? I’d love to make a seamless career transition if possible and I’ve never really thought about using one.

The thing I like most about possibly working in business is the potential to live closer to our hometown. The FAA is random and can spring a strange location on you without much ability to push back, but in business you can target companies in your preferred location of living.

As far as the guard/reserves, I do have a 4 year IRR commitment after separating from active duty. I have thought about continuing with the guard/reserves part time, but that is something DW and I will look into more within the next year. I’ll take a look at the blog.

Thanks again, Nords!

 

[Rowdy]

I recommend seriously considering the Guard or Reserve. I'm not sure where I would be without a COLA'd pension at 60 and medical covered. The time flies by, I did 11+ years active and 15 years Reserve. I'll be retiring from the Navy Reserve in a few months. Only mobilized once to the sandbox. Good luck.

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

Detailer was pitching the USFK job in Korea a little while back, for the 2-3 year accompanied tour. Mrs HawkeyeNFO quickly put the kibosh on that one.

 

[samclem]

Detailer was pitching the USFK job in Korea a little while back, for the 2-3 year accompanied tour. Mrs HawkeyeNFO quickly put the kibosh on that one.

I took an assignment to HQ USFK/CFC, I had the choice of 1 year unaccompanied or 2 years accompanied. I took the 12 month option, but many of the families seemed to think the accompanied 24 month tour in Seoul was okay. Yongsan had no crime, you could choose to immerse as much or as little in Korean culture as you wanted, etc. But, issuing of chem protective gear to all dependents made clear that this was no ordinary spot on the globe. I didn't have much faith in the family evacuation plan (it was a fine plan, but, well, anyone could see that circumstances would overwhelm any efforts to make it work). All-in-all I was happier that the family stayed in the US, but families who were there seemed to have a good quality if life.

 

[Bimmerbill]

IMO, OPTEMPO is too high to make guard/reserve a good choice (if you are trying to avoid deployment).

My buddies are on their 3rd deployments in 8 years +/-. Maybe things will calm down now that Iraq is done, but not sure. Most get additional "opportunities" to volunteer to deploy.

I think (again, IMO) if you want the military pension then stay in and do 20, make a clean break. Guard/Reserve deploys just as frequently as active component now.

It was different when I was in, 1985-2007 and has changed considerably. Back toward the early part of my career there was no chance to deploy short of WWIII (we were to go to the Fulda Gap). Force structure changes and modular force concepts really integrate the reserve components now.

 

[skipro3]

I made the same choice as you but AFTER my short tour without wife. After that separation, we decided to never let that happen again and I took a Palace Chase and entered the ANG in California where our families live. I got out of the guard just as my unit, the 234th Combat Communications Squadron was to be the first guard unit to go over to Iraq. Talk about dodging the bullet.
Anyways, there's two things to know about the military; You'll never get rich and you'll never miss a meal. Ha! Many of my buddies in the service tried to talk me out of it with the scare tactics of how hard it would be to find work, my wife pregnant (discharged 2 days after he was born, another dodged bullet) and no medical. But life is about risk sometimes and if not now at 24, then certainly not later when there's more obligation to family. I found out that most workplaces value the veteran and are awarded extra points on interviews for being such. I worked a couple technical field jobs before landing my current job. I've been here for 30 years and retire at the end of this year. My pension will pay me 70% of my base salary of approx $100,000 and I have been maxing out the 401K and the 457 accounts for many years. I'll have 6 years before I start to collect SS as well. We did this without having to have DW work outside the home while raising the 2 boys we had. Many people who know me say I've been lucky, but personally, I don't see it that way. A military man with skills is highly desirable. Since I've announced my retirement, I've had several other offers for work from the network of contacts I deal with regularly. Don't let the security of the military paycheck and pension lull you into accepting something less than you have the potential for financially. You give up a lot of personal freedom while serving and I admire the men and women who can make that a career decision. But it wasn't my vision of what my life with family should look like. Just check out divorce rates in the military.
Anyways, not sure what your job is, I was Nav-Aids and my brother, 2 years older was an Air Traffic Controller. He was on the IG team for Europe and spent 7 years over there traveling around the bases. When the civilian controllers called a strike and Regan fired them all, he was offered an early-out with a bag full of cash to boot. He was half way to retirement and decided to stay in. Eventually he retired from the USAF and worked for the FAA at the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. He was at work on April 19th, 1995 when it was blown up.

 

[Nords]

I really appreciate your insight Nords, as you fully understand the situation. It’s funny because we ended up getting our #5 base of preference choice out of 5, and prior to hearing about Korea would have been disappointed but now we are extremely grateful. Funny how a little perspective changes everything.

Stick to your [-]guns[/-] plans. I started making the "wrong" career choices very early in my career, and we just got better at doing that as time went on...
Sea story: Looking for an Engineer in all the wrong places | Military Retirement & Financial Independence

I do still have a couple years on my military commitment so it is probably a little soon for TAP ...

Your logic seems sound now, but here's two things to consider if you wait until 6-12 months before you separate:
1. "Holy crap, I wish we'd known this stuff a year ago!!"
2. "Sorry, captain, but I'm the XO and I get the majority vote. You only have eight months left here and we need you for every single day of them. I'm sure you'll do fine with TurboTAP online. You won't need to worry about money because you'll be selling back every day of leave instead of using it. Have a nice midwatch!"

It's not so much the TAP content as it is the opportunity for you two to break free of the "fog of work", spend quality time together, get into the separation frame of mind, react to the curriculum, appreciate the issues, and make sure you're both on the same page.

... and making contacts with career placement firms, but I will more than likely take you up on that when it gets a little closer. Are these firms pretty successful? I’d love to make a seamless career transition if possible and I’ve never really thought about using one.

They all seem pretty successful, but Lee Cohen is particularly so. I started talking to him when I was at the eight-year point and he'd only been at Lucas for three years. I eventually decided to "Stay Navy, Baby", but I've been sending him "my guys" for over 20 years. One of them became a Lucas headhunter himself, and started a hugely successful branch of the company.

The sooner you talk to someone like Lee, the sooner they can get you into the database and start feeding you small weekly doses of transition info. They have to learn your interests, and you probably have to do some of that learning for yourself before you can tell them what kind of career you're targeting. They'll also help you understand what works... and what doesn't. They'll give you golden gouge on an MBA strategy. You gain nothing by waiting until later. You're the guy with the obligation and the hard separation date, so the sooner you start searching for (and the longer you give yourself) to choose a good headhunter then the happier you'll be.

Lee and I have had a 15-year running debate about ER. He's financially independent but he'll never stop working. He thinks "The Military Guide" was well written but he can't see how it has any relevance to him. Neither one of us "gets" how the other can live the way we do. But he truly loves his work, he's very passionate about it, and his philanthropy makes me look like a piker.

As far as the guard/reserves, I do have a 4 year IRR commitment after separating from active duty. I have thought about continuing with the guard/reserves part time, but that is something DW and I will look into more within the next year. I’ll take a look at the blog.
Thanks again, Nords!

You're welcome, and keep us posted so that your stories can be in the book's second edition!

I took an assignment to HQ USFK/CFC, I had the choice of 1 year unaccompanied or 2 years accompanied. I took the 12 month option, but many of the families seemed to think the accompanied 24 month tour in Seoul was okay. Yongsan had no crime, you could choose to immerse as much or as little in Korean culture as you wanted, etc. But, issuing of chem protective gear to all dependents made clear that this was no ordinary spot on the globe. I didn't have much faith in the family evacuation plan (it was a fine plan, but, well, anyone could see that circumstances would overwhelm any efforts to make it work). All-in-all I was happier that the family stayed in the US, but families who were there seemed to have a good quality if life.

We had to do a MEDEVAC off Chinhae in 1991, and we weren't sure if we were being escorted by heavily-armed vessels-- or captured. When we sent our sailor over the brow to the small boat, all our escorts beat feet and vanished into the fog.
One of my junior Deck Div personnel asked me "Sir, who did we just give Schmuckatelli to?"
I answered: "That small boat and all the ships were from the Korean Navy."
He asked: "North or South?"

If I hadn't seen a U.S. Navy chief petty officer at the other end of the brow I would have been worrying about the same thing...

 

[av8er]

Detailer was pitching the USFK job in Korea a little while back, for the 2-3 year accompanied tour. Mrs HawkeyeNFO quickly put the kibosh on that one.

I've spent a couple of tours in the ROK, one dependent restricted and one accompanied. I've certainly had worse assignments...no one shot at me a single time in Korea, which is more than I can say about some of the other vacation spots the Army has sent me to in recent years.