Fasting for Health? Obstacles.

[Rianne]

This study is flawed.

"But there were just 414 people in the eight-hour eating group, Dr. Zhong said. And they tended to be younger and less educated; have lower income and less access to food; and be more likely to smoke than the other participants.

The researchers accounted for these factors in their analysis, Dr. Zhong said. But the study did not show that this style of eating caused deaths from cardiovascular disease, only that the two were linked."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/well/eat/intermittent-fasting-study.html

 

[Turbo29]

As I am sure everyone here knows, correlation ≠ causation.

Here are some humorous examples: Spurious Correlations

 

[bloom2708]

In the end, IF is just another form of calorie restriction.

If the same amount of calories are eaten in 1,2,3 meals, the results are the same.

Eat more whole, plant foods (which are lower in saturated fat, cholesterol and calories).

Eat less ultra processed and calorically dense foods that tend to have much more saturated fat, cholesterol and produce trans fat when cooked.

Not hard, but it ain't easy.

 

[Koolau]

In the end, IF is just another form of calorie restriction.

If the same amount of calories are eaten in 1,2,3 meals, the results are the same.

Eat more whole, plant foods (which are lower in saturated fat, cholesterol and calories).

Eat less ultra processed and calorically dense foods that tend to have much more saturated fat, cholesterol and produce trans fat when cooked.

Not hard, but it ain't easy.

There is at least some evidence that the same calories consumed over different periods of time can affect metabolism. For instance, basal metabolism slows when people are starving. So, starvation diets are not as effective as one would think. Better to make the body think it's not starving by small meals through the day (with restricted calories) than one big meal with the same calories - or at least that's the info I have found (sorry, no citation.)

 

[MarieIG]

There is at least some evidence that the same calories consumed over different periods of time can affect metabolism. For instance, basal metabolism slows when people are starving. So, starvation diets are not as effective as one would think. Better to make the body think it's not starving by small meals through the day (with restricted calories) than one big meal with the same calories - or at least that's the info I have found (sorry, no citation.)

Here is a small (more tightly controlled) study over a short time period involving elite athletes for your reading pleasure.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7733258/

 

[Teacher Terry]

I always eat my big meal at lunch which is when I’m hungry. Then around 5 pm I have a piece of string cheese. I don’t like to go out for dinner because I am not hungry then. If I do I eat a small lunch but then I am hungry until dinner. I also hate being full in the evening when I’m not moving as much.

 

[MarieIG]

I always eat my big meal at lunch which is when I’m hungry. Then around 5 pm I have a piece of string cheese. I don’t like to go out for dinner because I am not hungry then. If I do I eat a small lunch but then I am hungry until dinner. I also hate being full in the evening when I’m not moving as much.

Retirement allowed us to eat our main meal earlier. I can't speak for everyone of course, but I find eating too late interferes with sleep.

 

[audreyh1]

Right - light meal if any I don’t want to sleep on a full stomach.

 

[Koolau]

Right - light meal if any I don’t want to sleep on a full stomach.

Don't most Europeans typically dine late? Then they take a long mid-day break (siesta or similar?) Most Europeans are slimmer and healthier than Americans (I'm told.) I suppose there are many roads to ideal weight and good health.

 

[audreyh1]

Don't most Europeans typically dine late? Then they take a long mid-day break (siesta or similar?) Most Europeans are slimmer and healthier than Americans (I'm told.) I suppose there are many roads to ideal weight and good health.

That’s really Spain. You don’t see that so much in Northern Europe. Certainly not the siesta part.

 

[Music Lover]

Don't most Europeans typically dine late? Then they take a long mid-day break (siesta or similar?) Most Europeans are slimmer and healthier than Americans (I'm told.) I suppose there are many roads to ideal weight and good health.

Eat healthy foods in reasonable portions at the time of day that suits you the best. Add some exercise and that's all you really need. Don't waste time on analyzing minute details.

 

[razztazz]

That’s really Spain. You don’t see that so much in Northern Europe. Certainly not the siesta part.

I lived in Germany, been to Switzerland and Austria and Netherlands. The all do it. Shut down for 2 hours for lunch. (Maybe they don't sleep like Spanish but it shuts down) Eat late. Go to bed on what I would think is a full stomach.

 

[audreyh1]

I spend a lot of time in Amsterdam. I don’t see that. No one shuts down for lunch, certainly not 2 hours. Sounds like rural France.

 

[braumeister]

I've never seen that in Germany, Belgium, or Scandinavia either.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Many cities in Europe don’t allow cars in the city center and they do much more walking than Americans. When we were in Italy in 2003 and 2007 everything closed down for 2 hours in the afternoon.

However, in other European countries that I have been to from 2010- present that wasn’t the case. Europe also doesn’t allow many ingredients in their food that are known to contribute to obesity like the USA does.

 

[Koolau]

Many cities in Europe don’t allow cars in the city center and they do much more walking than Americans. When we were in Italy in 2003 and 2007 everything closed down for 2 hours in the afternoon.

However, in other European countries that I have been to from 2010- present that wasn’t the case. Europe also doesn’t allow many ingredients in their food that are known to contribute to obesity like the USA does.

My university campus had no cars and I often had 10 minutes to get from one end of the campus to the other. I lost 16 pound in my first year - mostly from walking. Yeah, it does w*rk. Don't think I could walk that much now, some 60 years later.

 

[tmm99]

Evidently, Japan has the lowest obesity rate (4% while overweight=20%). The obesity rate in the US on the other hand is supposed to be around 40%. The definition of obesity seems to be BMI>=30.

Some of my friends were discussing/gossping about their mutual friend who has lost a lot of weight lately. They were concerned about his health although everyone knew his weight loss was deliberate as he decided to change his eating habits after his dad had a heart attack last year. He is around 40 and he looks a bit more wrinkly on the face now than before his weight loss. And then another person interjected and said that this friend who lost a lot of weight is probably at his ideal weight now and the rest of us are too fat. Then someone else said that it's good to be a little overweight as they could lose more weight without getting too thin if they got sick whereas he'd get too thin. Everyone laughed and drank more beer...

 

[tmm99]

I watched some home videos from the '60s someone put together in a small town in Utah. It had family members, neighbours and their friends. BBQing together, playing baseball together, eating at picnics, etc. Almost all of them looked quite thin by today's standards. I don't think any of them fasted. Don't get me wrong. I am not against fasting. In fact, I try to IF (16/8) most days. It's just that it occured to me that they were thin probably without trying, for whatever reason.

 

[audreyh1]

What you eat plays a big role. That has changed a great deal over the decades. People eat way more processed food/junk these days.

And even though the eastern countries have much lower obesity rates than the US they are suffering an epidemic of type 2 diabetes. China and India each have higher diabetes rates than the US.

 

[Koolau]

What you eat plays a big role. That has changed a great deal over the decades. People eat way more processed food/junk these days.

And even though the eastern countries have much lower obesity rates than the US they are suffering an epidemic of type 2 diabetes. China and India each have higher diabetes rates than the US.

Thanks for the info. First I'm hearing of it.

Has there been any speculation (or, better yet, study) of why the type 2 would be worse in those two countries? Only thing I could think of is that we (USA) tend to eat more protein. Could it be rice?? We in the Island eat TONS of rice. Not aware of any worse Type 2 issues, though I have not researched it at all. Aloha

 

[audreyh1]

It’s driven by a change over the last 2 or 3 decades towards a western diet with lots of junk food snacking and sugary drinks. It turns out that folks of eastern/asian descent are more susceptible to type 2 diabetes than are folks of European descent, just as Native Americans and Pacific Islanders are. It also turns out that eastern/asian descent do not tend to develop obesity along with or before they develop type 2 diabetes. Obesity may actually be a protective mechanism in folks of European descent helping to delay the onset of type 2 diabetes.

Oh, the US has plenty of diabetes and it has also mushroomed along with obesity over the last several decades, hitting folks younger and younger. It’s just that China and India are being hit even harder.

 

[tmm99]

It’s driven by a change over the last 2 or 3 decades towards a western diet with lots of junk food snacking and sugary drinks. It turns out that folks of eastern/asian descent are more susceptible to type 2 diabetes than are folks of European descent, just as Native Americans and Pacific Islanders are. It also turns out that eastern/asian descent do not tend to develop obesity along with or before they develop type 2 diabetes. Obesity may actually be a protective mechanism in folks of European descent helping to delay the onset of type 2 diabetes.

Oh, the US has plenty of diabetes and it has also mushroomed along with obesity over the last several decades, hitting folks younger and younger. It’s just that China and India are being hit even harder.

Interesting! I imagine those Asian countries (India and China) have higher CVD-related mortality rate than the US as well?

 

[audreyh1]

I don’t know even though someone with type 2 diabetes has much higher risk of heart/vascular disease as well as Alzheimer’s/dementia.

 

[braumeister]

Obesity may actually be a protective mechanism in folks of European descent helping to delay the onset of type 2 diabetes.

I wouldn't go quite that far. What I've seen in the medical literature is that slightly overweight individuals over 65 years of age have a lower mortality rate than those in other groups. But "slightly overweight" is not the same as obese.

 

[audreyh1]

Slightly overweight is not obese. Big difference.

High insulin actually makes the body store more fat and also prevents the body from using that fat for fuel. A lot of populations, but not all, tend to develop obesity along with type 2 diabetes for this reason - the body is furiously storing blood glucose as fat (triglycerides) to reduce blood sugar levels.

Chronically high insulin levels is what ultimately leads to the pancreas wearing out as more and more insulin is required to regulate blood sugar because the body, muscles etc., develop insulin resistance in a high insulin environment. Vicious cycle. The pancreas wearing out means the body has lost the ability to regulate its blood sugar and that is when a person may be detected to have developed type 2 diabetes.

It’s all about keeping that insulin down by not eating foods that overload the blood with sugar. Time restricted eating helps by giving the body a good long rest, letting blood insulin levels drop and providing a time period where the body can burn some of its stored fat. I suspect it also tends to retrain the hunger system, reducing cravings etc.

Some of us choose to restrict carbs to keep blood sugar low and insulin low most of the time. Chronic high insulin levels and high blood sugar damage the cardiovascular system, causing inflammation, etc. People with poorly controlled type 2 diabetes can develop some very nasty side effects - neuropathy such as losing sensation in extremities (hands, feet) which can result in amputation, kidney disease and ultimately kidney failure, NAFLD - non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and even cirrhosis, eye problems leading to blindness, it’s a very long list.

The semaglutide inhibitors pills probably mimic a lower carb diet by helping the body excrete more glucose. Apparently they also reduce cravings.

Hopefully most people soon will have reasonable and frequent access to real-time blood sugar monitoring (like CGMs) so they can see exactly how their body reacts to different foods. I wish they also provided blood insulin level monitoring.