Genworth LTC at it again

[RetireeRobert]

I'm a bit puzzled though. For underwriting, don't the insurance companies check your medical records anyhow? If so, then why do an interview?

When we applied for our hybrid life/LTC, we did fill out an application which included some questions about health history. The company also sent around a nurse who did some basic onsite health checks (BP, weight, height, girth, pulse rate, etc.), and got a blood sample for testing. I doubt the companies want to spend the time/expense of contacting numerous medical providers for records, and maybe getting no responses. They would rather ask the to-be-insured their history.

 

[zippy2020]

Just got a notice from CalPERS that a rate increase of 52% will take effect by November of 2021 and if necessary a second increase of another 25% fall of 2022......We can cover nursing home costs for the average stay of 3 years from our investments the only reason I've kept it is in case of one of those infrequent 10+ year long stays.

Yes, we received that also. We'll probably continue to pay it, for several reasons:

- We can still afford it.

- Death is easy; no change in our financial picture. But a long-term disability or dementia? Big hit - like, a major hit to surviving spouse....

- ...And if the surviving spouse develops a problem while the other spouse remains incapacitated (see below) - well, then the picture threatens to get ugly, unfortunately.

- Spouse had major stroke at 50. Recovered very well - BUT this puts him at extremely high risk for dementia. Odds jump to 25%; 1 in every 4 stroke victims develops dementia. Plus, his mother had already developed it at age 76.

- I have every confidence that Western medicine can keep you alive a lot longer than you may want. We have been watching this happen to people we know for the last twenty years. Quality of life issues have not been a concern before - technology does not find that as profitable a market as extending lifespans. At least 40% of the people we know with aging parents are dreading the future scenarios they will face, with elderly seniors running out of $$$$ and any kind of care options forcing a high out of pocket cost.

- We keep an eye on home healthcare costs and Skilled Nursing costs, which we started doing back in 2013 when we realized MIL's dementia was an issue. Skilled Nursing is now past $15K/month in our area, and price increases of 3-4% occur like clockwork every July 1st. Every single facility we investigated uses this date, out here, although the amount of increase differs, of course.

- Many people don't realize home healthcare costs are the fastest-rising cost segment of annual healthcare expenses. What many don't realize is that people who go into Asst. Lvg stay on average only 2 yrs before having to go into Skilled Nursing. Folks think they can stay home with health aides, but from a bonded agency that can often be a higher cost than a full-service senior facility would charge.

- And homecare "grey labor"? Strip the home of anything valuable and make sure the senior is iron-clad legally protected, because it's a dangerous Wild West out there to hire someone.

======

One of our best friend's family has lost literally thousands of dollars to a couple of health aides - but the father feels comfortable with the aides and refuses to fire them. The mother had Alzheimer's and it was a decade before she died, at home. Now the father needs help, but altho he has mentally declined a bit, he's still legally 'compos mentis' so the family is stuck on the sidelines, helpless to protect him.

As I've mentioned in several previous posts, we eventually moved my MIL to a full-service senior facility. Outstanding staff and a wonderful social environment - she loved it and they loved her!

It was quite eye-opening for her and for us to be a part of this non-profit facility. At 84 she was considered "one of the young ones" (!) and there were a sizable percentage of residents in Asst. Lvg who had lived there for 10+ years. It was also interesting that during our research into this and other facilities with Memory Care, several mentioned that the length of time residents were spending in Skilled Care/Memory Care units were showing a slow but steady increase in the length of time spent in 24/7 care. As one RN pointed out, it's the age group 80+ that is growing fastest globally.

 

[ejman]

Yes, we received that also. We'll probably continue to pay it, for several reasons:

- We can still afford it.

- Death is easy; no change in our financial picture. But a long-term disability or dementia? Big hit - like, a major hit to surviving spouse....

- ...And if the surviving spouse develops a problem while the other spouse remains incapacitated (see below) - well, then the picture threatens to get ugly, unfortunately.

- Spouse had major stroke at 50. Recovered very well - BUT this puts him at extremely high risk for dementia. Odds jump to 25%; 1 in every 4 stroke victims develops dementia. Plus, his mother had already developed it at age 76.

- I have every confidence that Western medicine can keep you alive a lot longer than you may want. We have been watching this happen to people we know for the last twenty years. Quality of life issues have not been a concern before - technology does not find that as profitable a market as extending lifespans. At least 40% of the people we know with aging parents are dreading the future scenarios they will face, with elderly seniors running out of $$$$ and any kind of care options forcing a high out of pocket cost.

- We keep an eye on home healthcare costs and Skilled Nursing costs, which we started doing back in 2013 when we realized MIL's dementia was an issue. Skilled Nursing is now past $15K/month in our area, and price increases of 3-4% occur like clockwork every July 1st. Every single facility we investigated uses this date, out here, although the amount of increase differs, of course.

- Many people don't realize home healthcare costs are the fastest-rising cost segment of annual healthcare expenses. What many don't realize is that people who go into Asst. Lvg stay on average only 2 yrs before having to go into Skilled Nursing. Folks think they can stay home with health aides, but from a bonded agency that can often be a higher cost than a full-service senior facility would charge.

- And homecare "grey labor"? Strip the home of anything valuable and make sure the senior is iron-clad legally protected, because it's a dangerous Wild West out there to hire someone.

======

One of our best friend's family has lost literally thousands of dollars to a couple of health aides - but the father feels comfortable with the aides and refuses to fire them. The mother had Alzheimer's and it was a decade before she died, at home. Now the father needs help, but altho he has mentally declined a bit, he's still legally 'compos mentis' so the family is stuck on the sidelines, helpless to protect him.

As I've mentioned in several previous posts, we eventually moved my MIL to a full-service senior facility. Outstanding staff and a wonderful social environment - she loved it and they loved her!

It was quite eye-opening for her and for us to be a part of this non-profit facility. At 84 she was considered "one of the young ones" (!) and there were a sizable percentage of residents in Asst. Lvg who had lived there for 10+ years. It was also interesting that during our research into this and other facilities with Memory Care, several mentioned that the length of time residents were spending in Skilled Care/Memory Care units were showing a slow but steady increase in the length of time spent in 24/7 care. As one RN pointed out, it's the age group 80+ that is growing fastest globally.

Thank you. Good post. I don't like the feeling that they "have me trapped" I certainly could not qualify for any other insurance since I have a disease with no known cure but fortunately (unfortunately?) treatments have progressed to where the median survival is now 8 years. But of course, its a bell curve. Some lucky folks have survived decades with this disease. I got over the "hump" - mortality rate in the first year after diagnosis is 20-25% and I'm a year and a half into this fun ride. Decisions, decisions but thanks for your post.

 

[twin]

I hate Genworth. I watched them screw over a family member after paying thousands in premiums for decades.

 

[RetireeRobert]

I hate Genworth. I watched them screw over a family member after paying thousands in premiums for decades.

One more reason why I am very happy with my single premium hybrid life/LTC policy that covered both me and DW for LTC under one policy (different company, not Genworth). "Never" any chance of a premium increase. And if I never need or use the LTC coverage, the kids get a multiple of my single premium as life insurance proceeds.

 

[Sunset]

Got a little deeper in the hybrid LTC rabbit hole.

Application submitted and underwriting phone interview scheduled. Just gathered all my medical history for the phone interview (not until over a week away).

I'm a bit puzzled though. For underwriting, don't the insurance companies check your medical records anyhow? If so, then why do an interview? As seems kind of like a company asking you to provide you credit history then the company does a credit check on you anyway.

They ask you so they can have it in the contract you are perfectly healthy. Then when you die 25 yrs later from a heart attack, they claim you obviously lied on the insurance application as you must have had heart issues or you would still be alive.
So they won't be paying out the claim.
Finally they settle to pay out 1/2 the insurance amount, and your spouse considers herself lucky to get the 1/2 (minus legal fees).
It happened to my friend.

 

[RetireeRobert]

They ask you so they can have it in the contract you are perfectly healthy. Then when you die 25 yrs later from a heart attack, they claim you obviously lied on the insurance application as you must have had heart issues or you would still be alive.
So they won't be paying out the claim.
Finally they settle to pay out 1/2 the insurance amount, and your spouse considers herself lucky to get the 1/2 (minus legal fees).
It happened to my friend.

Every life policy I have seen, or heard about, has a "2 year" clause written right into it (including my hybrid life/LTC policy). Insurer has two years to dispute any info given on the application by the insured, and if some "lie" is surfaced, insurer can cancel or re-underwrite the policy. After two years, the insurer is locked in by terms of their written contract, and cannot dispute any information stated on the insured's application in order to deny claim payment at death. The terms are strictly enforced by the various state insurance commissioner offices, and insurer can lose their license to operate in a state if they flout the rules. I would guess there is more to the story about your friend's situation that you do not know.

 

[ncbill]

Every life policy I have seen, or heard about, has a "2 year" clause written right into it (including my hybrid life/LTC policy). Insurer has two years to dispute any info given on the application by the insured, and if some "lie" is surfaced, insurer can cancel or re-underwrite the policy. After two years, the insurer is locked in by terms of their written contract, and cannot dispute any information stated on the insured's application in order to deny claim payment at death. The terms are strictly enforced by the various state insurance commissioner offices, and insurer can lose their license to operate in a state if they flout the rules. I would guess there is more to the story about your friend's situation that you do not know.

If they don't want to pay the claim, the insurer will try to claim fraud...not subject to the 2-year limit...no telling what happens until litigated.

A couple of examples (life insurance) I read about online:

In one case the agent "helpfully" changed something on a life insurance application...20+ years later the insurer successfully argued it was fraud & the court (NY state) sided with them.

In another case (not sure what state) an applicant omitted being HIV positive on their life insurance application...court said it was just misrepresentation, not fraud (insurer never checked MIB) & so the company had to pay the claim since the 2-year period had passed.

 

[athena53]

It's not just fraud- one poster here said that they had to fight the LTC insurer down to the mat when his elderly father obviously needed LTC and the insurance company said he didn't. He had to hire his own medical experts to evaluate Dad. Jim Cramer had a similar fight- he won but said that legal fees ate up most of it.

 

[ncbill]

I also should mention that on another forum a poster who is a LTC broker recommends the health care provider (home health care agency, assisted living /SNF facility) should be the one to start the claim for benefits given their experience dealing with LTC insurers versus a family member of the insured.

 

[REWahoo]

I also should mention that on another forum a poster who is a LTC broker recommends the health care provider (home health care agency, assisted living /SNF facility) should be the one to start the claim for benefits given their experience dealing with LTC insurers versus a family member of the insured.

^ This.

Some of these home health care agencies and assisted living /SNF facilities advertise claims assistance as part of the services they offer.

 

[REWahoo]

It's not just fraud- one poster here said that they had to fight the LTC insurer down to the mat when his elderly father obviously needed LTC and the insurance company said he didn't. He had to hire his own medical experts to evaluate Dad. Jim Cramer had a similar fight- he won but said that legal fees ate up most of it.

Here's a link to a thread about a govt. study on the claims payment history of LTC insurance companies: NATIONAL LONG-TERM CARE INSURANCE CLAIMS DECISION STUDY

 

[easysurfer]

Got got off the phone after doing the LTC Insurance underwriting phone interview. Took about 45 minutes.

Gave the contact information of the doctors. Now I wonder do the insurance places follow up with the docs? I can't imagine the busy doctors having the time to sit down and have to chat with the insurance people. Or when an insurance company [-] comes sniffing around[/-] asks for info, I assume calling the doctors' offices, do they have their own way of sharing? As I'd think a process should be routine and in place. No?

 

[RetireeRobert]

Got got off the phone after doing the LTC Insurance underwriting phone interview. Took about 45 minutes.

Gave the contact information of the doctors. Now I wonder do the insurance places follow up with the docs? I can't imagine the busy doctors having the time to sit down and have to chat with the insurance people. Or when an insurance company [-] comes sniffing around[/-] asks for info, I assume calling the doctors' offices, do they have their own way of sharing? As I'd think a process should be routine and in place. No?

Process, if any, and follow up, is probably as varied as number insurance companies and number of medical providers. I would assume, part of the application paperwork you did for insurance company, was signing some kind of HIPPA information release form for insurers to contact doctors. If not, then I would not expect any kind of follow up. If so, then maybe or maybe not.

When my wife and got got our hybrid life/LTC policy, we filled out the medical questions on the application. We both also had mini-exams by a nurse/paramedical type service that worked for various insurers, and this person also took blood samples. I do not know, but my firm belief is that was the extent of the insurer's "snooping". My wife had not had a regular doctor for 25 years. I had a long standing doctor with whom I had annual physicals. Neither he nor his office ever said anything about insurance inquiries or called me about it.

So, I would expect a visit from a nurse/paramedical service to do mini-physical and get blood sample.

 

[easysurfer]

Process, if any, and follow up, is probably as varied as number insurance companies and number of medical providers. I would assume, part of the application paperwork you did for insurance company, was signing some kind of HIPPA information release form for insurers to contact doctors. If not, then I would not expect any kind of follow up. If so, then maybe or maybe not.

When my wife and got got our hybrid life/LTC policy, we filled out the medical questions on the application. We both also had mini-exams by a nurse/paramedical type service that worked for various insurers, and this person also took blood samples. I do not know, but my firm belief is that was the extent of the insurer's "snooping". My wife had not had a regular doctor for 25 years. I had a long standing doctor with whom I had annual physicals. Neither he nor his office ever said anything about insurance inquiries or called me about it.

So, I would expect a visit from a nurse/paramedical service to do mini-physical and get blood sample.

You called it. As part of the process the insurance company wants to do a urine and blood sample.

Fine by me. Everyone is guilty of something til proven guilty .

 

[ownyourfuture]

I'm in charge of my mothers policy. Late in 2018, they announced there was going to be a 40% hike in monthly premiums, but they spread it out over 3 years 19-20 & 21. Contacted them with questions a couple times and they seem to be fine.

Her policy is through Allianz.
Anyone have LTC experience with them ?

 

[easysurfer]

Had the mini-physical done today for my hyrbrid/LTC application. Gave blood and urine sample and get measured (for BMI, weight) and re-asked many of the questions that were asked during my phone interview.

I'd be surprised if I don't pass underwriting.

 

[easysurfer]

Just an update .... guess I'm as healthy as a horse and passed with flying colors and got approved for my hybrid LTC policy.

 

[rtroxel]

After 10 years of holding a Genworth LTC, I made the tough decision to drop it completely this year. Honestly I'm conflicted, but the price increase is astronomical and will easily double then triple then quadruple in years to come, as that has been the pattern so far. It is a gamble both ways, but the continued increases are getting ridiculous, and the options to continue to lower coverage are also crazy.

If you drop out of Genworth, do they keep the money you have given them so far?

Roy

 

[RobbieB]

Genworth jacked me around so much that I'm done with the whole LTC thing forever.

 

[RobbieB]

Just the pro rated annual one the year he died. Happy to write him off the list.

 

[rtroxel]

Just the pro rated annual one the year he died. Happy to write him off the list.

Thanks. I'm trying to make the decision myself, and I don't think Genworth deserves to keep the premiums I've been sending them the past 10 years, unless doing so would pay for my LTC.

Roy

 

[twin]

Actually, half of us won't need LTC, and most of those who do will need it for less than two years.

Chuckanut, do you have a data or article that you found that info from?

 

[teej1985]

Thanks. I'm trying to make the decision myself, and I don't think Genworth deserves to keep the premiums I've been sending them the past 10 years, unless doing so would pay for my LTC.

Roy

There's no way they are refunding you 10 years of premiums if you cancel.

 

[REWahoo]

If you drop out of Genworth, do they keep the money you have given them so far?

Roy

Yes.