Genworth LTC Strikes Again

[mf15]

Well this year another 20% increase to keep current coverage.
$923 a quarter for $392,000 max benefit,over 4 years
.

Have to think hard on this one,or maybe not.
Just had major gut surgery.

Oldmike

 

[Dtail]

My mom is paying $8,195 yearly for max yearly coverage of 134k for a max of 3 years.
However part of the deal is no yearly increases until 2028.
She is also 89 y.o.

 

[Montecfo]

Expect more increases. They are hoping you will cut or drop.

 

[Graybeard]

LTCI was grossly mispriced and the insurance companies are raising rates. With inflation raging, expect continued increases. One policy started at $450 20 years ago, now it's $750. The other policy started at $1325 14 years ago and is now $2300. Neither of these 2 policies had any premium increases until about 6 years ago, now they do just about every year.

 

[G-Man]

I'm in my mid 50th and trying to make a decision about self-insured or LTCI. Right now, my employer HRA will pay for LTC premiums when I turn 65.

I got some quotes for LTC and it's expensive.

 

[badatmath]

Well this year another 20% increase to keep current coverage.
$923 a quarter for $392,000 max benefit,over 4 years

Have to think hard on this one,or maybe not.
Just had major gut surgery.

Oldmike

That sounds alarming and sorry about your gut surgery.

But I mean I know 2 people who "needed" to use their LTC. One was denied even though terminal and the other was accepted. It just makes me wonder though how hard they push back to deny what you have been paying for. (I have no idea at all but it seems like a fair guess they will deny anything they can). If you cannot dress yourself, bathe yourself, etc that seems to me a good reason to need it but what do I know?

 

[RobbieB]

They aim to wear you down. That's what they did o me and it worked. They saved 10 grand or so.

But they lost me for life and all I tell my tale to forever (until I die which they like even more)

 

[Out of Steam]

When considering LTCI, I found it hard to see the advantage of advantage of paying for an insurance policy that would cumulatively cost 1/3 or more of the maximum potential benefit.

As designed, current policies seem closer to paying an insurance company to purchase beer or pizza for me than protection to deal with an unlikely, but expensive event.

 

[athena53]

Expect more increases. They are hoping you will cut or drop.

Ah, but the ones who stay will be the ones who suspect they'll need it- suffered a stroke, beginning of Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's in family, longevity in family, etc. So then the companies get a death spiral in which the remaining ones are more likely to need the coverage.

Two stories on trying to make a claim- one on this board and one from Jim Cramer, whose father suffered a serious stroke- have convince me it might not be there when I need it. Loved ones had to fight tooth and nail and pay their own experts to prove the insured needed LTC. Cramer said it almost cost him as much as the policy eventually paid to get them to pay the claim.

 

[Marita40]

They wore me down, too. I paid for a policy for 10 years and finally had to drop it due to outrageously high cost hikes. My loss.

 

[Dtail]

In terms of the fighting aspect, I will say that with my father's 2 policies, including Genworth, there was no fight back and he didn't have any dementia at the beginning of the claim.

 

[easysurfer]

They wore me down, too. I paid for a policy for 10 years and finally had to drop it due to outrageously high cost hikes. My loss.

Yep. They wear you down. Heads you get a premium increase. Tails you get less coverage. Take your pick .

 

[G-Man]

So based on the comments so far, if you are able to self-insure, that is so much better than getting LTCI. Please confirm my statement is true.

 

[harllee]

DM is 90 and has had her LTC policy for about 30 years. Current insurance company is MetLife (started with another company that MetLife bought out.). Of course MetLife does not write LTCI anymore. The policy premium goes up up up every year but at age 90 it makes no sense to drop it. The policy has a 90 day waiting period, a 3 year maximum pay out and pays about $200 per day. My DM has paid more in premium than she will ever get out of the policy. She would have been much better off self insuring.

 

[Dtail]

So based on the comments so far, if you are able to self-insure, that is so much better than getting LTCI. Please confirm my statement is true.

One of the top 10 conversations here.
My thoughts are if one is truly able to self insure, then do so. It is the retirees without that larger net worth, but not so small either, that the decision is more complex.

 

[qwerty3656]

One of the top 10 conversations here.
My thoughts are if one is truly able to self insure, then do so. It is the retirees without that larger net worth, but not so small either, that the decision is more complex.

Wasn't there some argument about buying a policy with a really long waiting period to keep the costs down? Most people probably can self-insure for a year or 2 and that's all most would need. But 5 or 10 years of LTC is where people could get into trouble.

 

[Chuckanut]

They aim to wear you down. That's what they did o me and it worked. They saved 10 grand or so.

But they lost me for life and all I tell my tale to forever (until I die which they like even more)

IIRC, an long time member of this site had a few choice things to say about LTC insurance and his father. It wasn't pretty.

 

[Koolau]

Ours went up 10% this year (not Genworth) but that's the first increase for about 8 years. YMMV

 

[Rianne]

Self-insuring LTC depends on your zip code or where you're willing to move to get the best care. It helps to define LTC. Nursing home, 24/7 care, independent living, staying in your home with outside help. It really depends on your needs and wants.

A prof in our university town living at home (university pension and savings) paid a full-time nurse $70K/year. I'm not sure about laundry, cooking, etc.

A decent independent care facility with meals and private living space in our zip code is about $48000/year. These facilities offer transportation to the grocery for your private kitchen, various day trips, arts and crafts, and social interaction.

This is such a personal choice sort of thing. I have lots of family in the area. I would not burden them with my care but like the idea, they're near in case of something catastrophic.

 

[harllee]

Ours went up 10% this year (not Genworth) but that's the first increase for about 8 years. YMMV

Koolau, you have a very good policy/insurer there. Looking at DM's MetLife policy over the last 8 years the premiums have gone up 5 times for a total of about 50%. If my mother were not age 90 I would have suggested that she drop the policy.

 

[Koolau]

Koolau, you have a very good policy/insurer there. Looking at DM's MetLife policy over the last 8 years the premiums have gone up 5 times for a total of about 50%. If my mother were not age 90 I would have suggested that she drop the policy.

Full disclosure, the last increase (the only other increase) was significant. Can't recall, not 50% but much more than the recent 10%.

I think one thing to keep in mind (and I'm NOT an apologist for the insurance companies) is that insurance companies must get approval from the various regulators for each increase in LTC premium. IOW they have to more or less "prove" they need an increase to (whatever) stay in business? make profit?? I don't know the parameters, but it's not willy-nilly though it feels like it at the time.

Supposedly the KEY to the need to raise premiums is that insurance companies have NOT been good at guessing how many people will drop their coverage before ever using it. IOW lots of folks get tired of premiums and chuck the whole thing - and that is part of the profit for the companies. BUT, apparently, folks are hanging on - even in the face of premium increases. No expert, but that's what my research (such as it is) has revealed. YMMV

 

[Dtail]

Wasn't there some argument about buying a policy with a really long waiting period to keep the costs down? Most people probably can self-insure for a year or 2 and that's all most would need. But 5 or 10 years of LTC is where people could get into trouble.

And that's the quagmire. One doesn't know truly how long it will be. Instead of a massive increase to my mom's policy, I trade lifetime benefits for a maximum of 3 years with frozen premiums for 6 years.
My father needed LTC support for 4.25 years.

 

[mf15]

One good rider on the policy is,if one dies the other has no premium.
I almost get the idea that state insurance commissions approve just about everything.
Should not be my problem if 20 years ago their actuaries were stupid,or had a cracked crystal ball.
Oldmike

 

[Koolau]

And that's the quagmire. One doesn't know truly how long it will be. Instead of a massive increase to my mom's policy, I trade lifetime benefits for a maximum of 3 years with frozen premiums for 6 years.
My father needed LTC support for 4.25 years.

Yeah, my mom needed 3 years but only had 2. She JUST came out even by selling her house to cover the short-fall. Not a fun time for lots of reasons. Good news: She didn't have a worry in the world! That made it okay for me. YMMV

 

[Montecfo]

Ah, but the ones who stay will be the ones who suspect they'll need it- suffered a stroke, beginning of Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's in family, longevity in family, etc. So then the companies get a death spiral in which the remaining ones are more likely to need the coverage.

Two stories on trying to make a claim- one on this board and one from Jim Cramer, whose father suffered a serious stroke- have convince me it might not be there when I need it. Loved ones had to fight tooth and nail and pay their own experts to prove the insured needed LTC. Cramer said it almost cost him as much as the policy eventually paid to get them to pay the claim.

Perhaps. But I'm less concerned about the companies than people dropping coverage after maybe decades of paying.

And understand: Im not a big fan of LTC. It is too expensive for what you get and most folks collect little for a variety of reasons.