LDL Measurements and Statin Use Poll

Tell us about your LDL measurements and statin use

  • Thought there was only one LDL measurement, using statin.

    Votes: 24 20.9%
  • Thought there was only one LDL measurement, not using statin.

    Votes: 25 21.7%
  • Heard about LDL particle size, never had an LDL-P test, using statin.

    Votes: 14 12.2%
  • Heard about LDL particle size, never had an LDL-P test, not using statin.

    Votes: 30 26.1%
  • Had an LDL-P test, using statin.

    Votes: 9 7.8%
  • Had an LDL-P test, not using statin.

    Votes: 13 11.3%

  • Total voters
    115
Probably because on such a diet (not that I recommend an all meat diet) they cut out the highly refined carbs and added sugars. Those seem to be worse for us than old fashioned, natural fats found in real food. Of course, we are all different, so what works for one person may not work for others.
Low Carb is about lowering your exposure to high glycemic index foods that raise your blood sugars quickly, requiring large amounts of insulin use, which can also impact your body's manufacturing of cholesterol. You count "net" carbs, which is the carb count minus the indigestible fiber. Different people require different levels of carbs taking into account their body and goals. So sure, I can have a cheese burger, but instead of a bun and fries, I have it chopped up on top of a wonderful large salad with my spicy guacamole dressing. Or if we have steak, it is with a side of mashed cauliflower and a side of broccoli. LOTS of low glycemic veggies with this way of eating.

IP
 
Low Carb is about lowering your exposure to high glycemic index foods that raise your blood sugars quickly, requiring large amounts of insulin use, which can also impact your body's manufacturing of cholesterol. You count "net" carbs, which is the carb count minus the indigestible fiber. Different people require different levels of carbs taking into account their body and goals. So sure, I can have a cheese burger, but instead of a bun and fries, I have it chopped up on top of a wonderful large salad with my spicy guacamole dressing. Or if we have steak, it is with a side of mashed cauliflower and a side of broccoli. LOTS of low glycemic veggies with this way of eating.

IP
I would love to see some lipid studies where the participants were all low carbers. There are some of us that have a high total cholesterol (that some docs want to treat with statins), but our ratios are off the charts 'good' and we show zero CV disease on imaging tests.
 
"Let me repeat that: The injury and inflammation in our blood vessels is caused by the low fat diet recommended for years by mainstream medicine.

What are the biggest culprits of chronic inflammation? Quite simply, they are the overload of simple, highly processed carbohydrates (sugar, flourand all the products made from them) and the excess consumption of omega-6 vegetable oils like soybean, corn and sunflower that are found in many processed foods."

Which is why on our low carb diet, and taking supplements like turmeric which has been shown to be beneficial in reducing inflammation, I think it is too simplistic for DH's endocrinologist to say studies show statins to be great for diabetics!

IP
 
Absolutely correct!

Here's a study from last year that says pretty much the opposite:
Could Statins Raise Diabetes Risk? -- WebMD
That is not really what the article says. It does not address the hazards of taking statins for diabetics, but says that taking statins may increase your risk of getting diabetes if you don't already have it. There is also a danger of accepting someone's interpretation of a study unless you know their motivation and credentials. The person who wrote that synopsis lost any credibility with me when they wrote "People with type 2 diabetes have higher than normal blood sugar levels because their bodies don't make or properly use insulin." If your body doesn't make insulin, then you are a type I diabetic. Type 2's might still require insulin injections if their control is that bad, and they may evolve into a type 1 if they stress the insulin production so hard that they burn out it's ability to produce insulin, but at that point they are a type I insulin dependent.

IP
knowing way more about diabetes than she ever hoped to, but not enough about statins :)
 
Here's a tedious presentation for providers summarizing a bunch of studies from a few years ago:

http://www.dmhc.ca.gov/library/reports/news/rci/sdbps/Sac_v8_Rt_care_112012.pdf

(Pay attention to slide #11)

The bottom line is that for prevention of MI in diabetics and people with a previous history of a coronary event, peripheral vascular disease, etc., the combination of a cheap, generic statin, a cheap, generic ACE-I drug (lisinopril, benazepril or some other "-pril") and cheap, generic aspirin is extraordinarily powerful for dropping (not eliminating) risk of a heart attack. People without those risk factors don't get much if any improvement with the same combo, though. The risks of the drugs are grossly exaggerated in the media. People who develop type 2 diabetes on statins already have signs indicating that they have the genetic pre-disposition to the problem anyway.
 
Here's a tedious presentation for providers summarizing a bunch of studies from a few years ago:

http://www.dmhc.ca.gov/library/reports/news/rci/sdbps/Sac_v8_Rt_care_112012.pdf

(Pay attention to slide #11)

The bottom line is that for prevention of MI in diabetics and people with a previous history of a coronary event, peripheral vascular disease, etc., the combination of a cheap, generic statin, a cheap, generic ACE-I drug (lisinopril, benazepril or some other "-pril") and cheap, generic aspirin is extraordinarily powerful for dropping (not eliminating) risk of a heart attack. People without those risk factors don't get much if any improvement with the same combo, though. The risks of the drugs are grossly exaggerated in the media. People who develop type 2 diabetes on statins already have signs indicating that they have the genetic pre-disposition to the problem anyway.
I did not find that slide show tedious at all, though it would have been helpful to be at the presentation as much information is missing from the slides. Thank you for the link. However, what I draw from it is the following:

-For a couple of decades, based on some "evidence" of uncertain nature, the general public has been over treated with statins with no significant benefit. Rush to prescribe a concern then, what about now?

-From the slides, it appears as though the research is based on type2 diabetes, which is very different from type 1. DH's body simply doesn't make insulin anymore, which he must inject. For him it was an auto immune issue that occurred post infection as a kid. His body uses the injected insulin just fine, and is not insulin resistant as is the case with type 2.

-Beyond statins there are several ways to reduce MI risk, including ace inhibitors and aspirin, both of which he takes. Not covered by this slide show is low carb dieting, which has been shown to be heart healthy when done well, and taking other anti-inflammatory supplements such as fish oil and turmeric.

My conclusions, though no doubt imperfect:

-Cynically observe a need for the statin manufacturers to find another set of customers now that long term analysis of the one time ground breaking "evidence" has shown that the treatment with statins is ineffective for many.

-Wonder what the results will be down the road when the current conclusion that people with diabetes should take statins is analyzed and controlled for type of diabetes, alternative supplementation/meds, and lifestyle. Just how much do statins add? Is the combination with aspirin and ace inhibitor magical, or do the aspirin/ace combo pretty much cover it, particularly when combined with lifestyle/supplements?

-Believe that side effects of statins are actually more prevalent than reported. While anecdotal evidence is a much weaker approach to determining risk than a controlled study, there is an increasing amount of anecdotal evidence demonstrating that negative life effects, ones that doctors have not been told could be a result of statins, disappear when statins are removed from body.

IP,
who never stopped asking "why" after leaving the toddler years
 
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Probably because on such a diet (not that I recommend an all meat diet) they cut out the highly refined carbs and added sugars. Those seem to be worse for us than old fashioned, natural fats found in real food. Of course, we are all different, so what works for one person may not work for others.
that's what worked for me.
 
-Beyond statins there are several ways to reduce MI risk, including ace inhibitors and aspirin, both of which he takes. Not covered by this slide show is low carb dieting, which has been shown to be heart healthy when done well, and taking other anti-inflammatory supplements such as fish oil and turmeric.

My conclusions, though no doubt imperfect:

-Cynically observe a need for the statin manufacturers to find another set of customers now that long term analysis of the one time ground breaking "evidence" has shown that the treatment with statins is ineffective for many.

-Wonder what the results will be down the road when the current conclusion that people with diabetes should take statins is analyzed and controlled for type of diabetes, alternative supplementation/meds, and lifestyle. Just how much do statins add? Is the combination with aspirin and ace inhibitor magical, or do the aspirin/ace combo pretty much cover it, particularly when combined with lifestyle/supplements?

-Believe that side effects of statins are actually more prevalent than reported. While anecdotal evidence is a much weaker approach to determining risk than a controlled study, there is an increasing amount of anecdotal evidence demonstrating that negative life effects, ones that doctors have not been told could be a result of statins, disappear when statins are removed from body.

In the UK NICE just recommended the expansion of statin use. The benefits far outweigh the risks:

BBC News - Guidelines call for more people to be put on statins

Although type 1 and type 2 DM are very different diseases, the complications that we see in smokers and people with either type of diabetes are micro- and macrovascular disease. Statins are an important tool in preventing those consequences.

Over the years all kinds of diets and supplements have been advocated for the prevention and treatment of heart disease. Lecithin, vitamin E, various B vitamins, cinnamon, hawthorn, fat-free, low-carb, etc. have all been advocated, however, none of them have really been shown to work. Statins, OTOH, have been shown to be quite powerful.

I don't think that we will see statins be discarded any time soon. I think it's more likely that the mechanism by which they work has a lot more to do with plaque stabilization on arterial walls rather than LDL lowering. I suspect that lower, fixed doses will be used. Since most of the drugs are now available as inexpensive generics, I can't think that anybody is going to get rich by cynically pushing them.
 
I have a doctor friend and we had a hot discussions about statins. I agree with his words.
Statins are damage control for people who refuse to make the necessary changes in their lifestyles. He talked of patients recovering from heart attacks that won't quit smoking, won't exercise, won't change their diets...they just want a pill for a easy fix. They don't listen to the know statin side effects. Dementia, diabetes, muscle loss, and a host of other problems.
 
Over the years all kinds of diets and supplements have been advocated for the prevention and treatment of heart disease. Lecithin, vitamin E, various B vitamins, cinnamon, hawthorn, fat-free, low-carb, etc. have all been advocated, however, none of them have really been shown to work. Statins, OTOH, have been shown to be quite powerful.

I don't think that we will see statins be discarded any time soon. I think it's more likely that the mechanism by which they work has a lot more to do with plaque stabilization on arterial walls rather than LDL lowering. I suspect that lower, fixed doses will be used. Since most of the drugs are now available as inexpensive generics, I can't think that anybody is going to get rich by cynically pushing them.

I read everything I can on statins (and retain little of the details) :) But my strongest takeaway is that the documented "power" of statins is merely to reduce cholesterol and not to improve health. The absolute (vs relative) reduction in CVD risk sounds quite modest to me and when overall mortality is considered the benefits disappear. I still wonder whether cardiologists and medical associations are continuing to base their recommendations soley on the belief that cholesterol numbers are hugely important. Thus because statins are the only thing they have found that quickly and dramatically reduces cholesterol numbers they recommend them regardless of the modest impact on health. For me, the potential (but not proved) dangers of statins are far more compelling that the potential (but not proved) benefits of cholesterol number reductions. I think going low carb and dropping 20% of body weight, coupled with naturally induced big increases in HDL and big decreases in triglicerides are serving me well. Adding statins to the mix might help marginally but I am more worried that they might cause all sorts of other problems. I see doctors arguing both sides of the equation with no clear winner so I will choose for myself and not blindly go with a panel.
 
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All the "studies" are suspect as all are influenced by drug company money. When the new report came out a few months ago along with a "risk calculator" that shows almost everyone needs to be on statins, it also came out that12 of the 16 people on the panel have strong ties to the drug industry. The number two lady of the panel had received over $360,000. During the study for "speaking engagements" from the drug industry. That says it all.
 
All the "studies" are suspect as all are influenced by drug company money. When the new report came out a few months ago along with a "risk calculator" that shows almost everyone needs to be on statins, it also came out that12 of the 16 people on the panel have strong ties to the drug industry.

I found that no matter how 'good' I made my answers to the calculator questions, I was in the high risk group simply because of my age. Giving drugs to otherwise healthy people simply because of their age does not strike me as good medical practice.
 
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How much do drug companies pay doctors:confused:

"CBS reports that drug companies pay doctors 57 billion dollars per year to push, teach, and promote their drugs. Additionally the report sheds light on the fact that drug company funded research leads to biased and misleading research…"

This says it all.
 
Stop complaining about unneeded drugs, drug tests, and drug advertising! Instead, ask your doctor for a dose of Pretendatrin!

 
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At the doctors office I have heard the drug salesman asking my doctor if he was a football or baseball fan etc. He had tickets to everything. I have also heard that doctors that prescribe certain drugs in large quantities get incentives. Can't prove the last statement, but the first one is true.
 
At the doctors office I have heard the drug salesman asking my doctor if he was a football or baseball fan etc. He had tickets to everything. I have also heard that doctors that prescribe certain drugs in large quantities get incentives. Can't prove the last statement, but the first one is true.
All I ever got was a big pile of plastic pens. :confused:
 
I know someone in the medical community who told me it's common for pharma salespeople to come in and bring food or take them to lunch.
Sounds like conflict of interest to me and to my body. :sick:
 
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