Low carb diets gain respect

[sailor]

I have tried a couple and they are OK. It just doesn't match eating an entire 8 oz bag of Cadbury Mini Eggs in one sitting - something I frequently did at my peak.

Donfheff - just for you: xkcd: Cadbury Eggs

 

[donheff]

Donfheff - just for you: xkcd: Cadbury Eggs

LOL.

 

[haha]

But in my experience as a diabetic, white bread is by far the worst offender blood sugar-wise. I guess it comes down to what you eat the most of, but I can eat something sugary (ice cream, usually) and it doesn't freak my blood sugar level out anywhere near what a few slices of tasty sourdough will do.

My Dad was a 50 year veteran of DM2 when he died at age 87. IMO, his medical advice and care were excremental, but he was smart and even though meters did not exist for the public, he could tell that some high quality premium ice cream bothered him much less than bread, and also that beer was out. He went all the way, and became a teetotaler. Those of us who have sugar issues can get down about it, but then I think how well some of these oldtimers did with very little intelligent advice, it seems that maybe there is more room than we often assume.

Looking back, most people ate a lot of carbs, exactly which ones depending mainly of their ethnicity and what their wives felt comfortable preparing. (Men cooking was mostly a profession, or a ceremonial thing.) In my Dad's case, he felt that allowing himself to gain maybe 30# of beer belly was the tipover. Another thing that happened was that we moved to my great-grandmother's old house, and Dad had his daily 2 mile walk to and from the busline cut to 50 yards or so. He had already given up his twin sports of handball and swimming, so he essentially becasme sedentary when we moved. I thik this can be an underrated factor.

Ha

 

[2B]

As a sort of ultimate government lie, the "food triangle" we all learned about when we were in school where we had to have so many servings of grain, so many of vegetables and, finally, a lower amount of meat. That came out of the US Department of Agriculture in the Depression Era. It's intent was to increase the consumption of grain products (bread) and was not based on any scientific nutritional research. That's per the Atkins research summary I read.

I haven't seen the "food triangle" in quite awhile. I don't know if it's on the Department of Agriculture's website.

 

[braumeister]

I haven't seen the "food triangle" in quite awhile. I don't know if it's on the Department of Agriculture's website.

Here ya go:
Low-Carb Pavilion - Food Pyramid for Fat People or Diabetics

 

[donheff]

Well, my first test results are in after about 5 weeks of LCHF (with some digressions at restaurants). Until January I had been on statins for about 15 years. My total cholesterol in the beginning of January was 202 and my doctor recommended increasing the statins to 80mg/day from 40mg. Two weeks later DW and I both stopped taking statins for a variety of reasons so my cholesterol levels could be expected to soar and they did. But 5 weeks ago I dropped the carb levels pretty substantially but not to an Atkins level 1 or 2, more like level 3 or 4 (maintenance). I have been typically at about 50 g of carbs a day with frequent forays toward 100g and one dynamite meal in NYC at about 300g

So here are my numbers:

January 2012
Total Cholesterol 202
HDL ...................67
LDL ..................108
Triglycerides ......137

Yesterday:
Total Cholesterol 241
HDL ...................86
LDL ..................137
Triglycerides .......91

So total cholesterol and LDL are in the high or borderline level, but protective HDL and triglycerides are both squarely in the good range. My intent at this point is to watch and see what happens. I am not worried about the LDL reading (no CHD in my family, I am now skinny and don't smoke) but if it stays high I may ask for a more detailed lipid panel that measures those little and big particles. I visit the doc again in June (new doc this time) and will see what she has to say. Any thoughts are welcome.

 

[bld999]

Do you have any scope for more exercise? [Forgive me if this was already discussed] I and friends have helped our chol. with exercise.

 

[donheff]

Do you have any scope for more exercise? [Forgive me if this was already discussed] I and friends have helped our chol. with exercise.

There is always scope for more but I do a fair amount. High intensity weights one or two times a week (I am following a protocol that would caution against more of this). 30 mile bike rides 2-4 times a week. Various walks, with the dogs, around the neighborhood, etc. - no where near 10,000 steps a day.

 

[braumeister]

Yesterday:
Total Cholesterol 241
HDL ...................86
LDL ..................137
Triglycerides .......91


I may ask for a more detailed lipid panel that measures those little and big particles. I visit the doc again in June (new doc this time) and will see what she has to say. Any thoughts are welcome.

Don, you seem to be doing very well, so keep it up.

My understanding is that HDL below 40 and Triglycerides above 120 are factors associated with small LDL particle size.
Your old trig value was worrying, but your current numbers seem to indicate that your LDL particles are the nice big fluffy kind.

 

[Chuckanut]

My understanding is that the triglyceride/hdl ratio should be under 2. Your's is close to 1, so that seems very good by that standard.

My ratio was above 2 until I started taking the statins. They brough it comfortably under 2. Once retired, I hope that a better diet and more opportunity to exercise will lower it further and remove the need for the statins. Until that time, though, the statins seem like a safe precaution.

Note: I have no medical expertise.

 

[eytonxav]

I am on 20mg of simvastatin for cholesterol, however, also taking 1200 mg of fish oil 2x/day has been helpful at getting my #s lower. YMMV

 

[Mulligan]

Don, you seem to be doing very well, so keep it up.

My understanding is that HDL below 40 and Triglycerides above 120 are factors associated with small LDL particle size.
Your old trig value was worrying, but your current numbers seem to indicate that your LDL particles are the nice big fluffy kind.

So will low carb bring up HDL numbers? I read that meds like lipitor only address the LDL and ratio, not improve actual HDL. The reason Im asking is this. Here are my totals compared the past 3 years.
2009- LDL 121. Trig. 125. HDL 42

2010- LDL 114 Trig. 149 HDL 41

2012- LDL 102. Trig. 83. HDL 39

In 2000 when was 35 I had HDL of 53 and lived off of junk food even though I had a 6 pack stomach. This past year I have ate religiously better and take fish oil. My weight is essentially the same as it was a dozen years ago but I eat better, but dont physically train hard like I used to. Why would the HDLs keep slipping and my other numbers are improving dramatically? I assume by my better eating habits (though they are still carb based like oatmeal, wheat bread, and bananas) are improving the other 2 numbers but the HDL number is slipping into the abyss of heart attack range.

 

[73ss454]

I just looked at my #'s for the same years. I turned 63 last month.

2009 LDL 90 HDL 30 Trig. 128

2010 LDL 103 HDL 39 Trig. 114

2011 LDL 102 HDL 34 Trig. 91

For some reason I can't get the HDL to go up over 39. My Dr. said more exercise and I work hard at it at least 1 hour 7 days a week but can't move the #. Maybe I have to work harder at losing some weight.

 

[TromboneAl]

Don, those are good numbers. Your LDL is wrong, because it was calculated based on a formula that doesn't work with low triglycerides. I'll calculate it when I get to my computer.

Yes LCHF increases HDL.

 

[Mulligan]

I just looked at my #'s for the same years. I turned 63 last month.

2009 LDL 90 HDL 30 Trig. 128

2010 LDL 103 HDL 39 Trig. 114

2011 LDL 102 HDL 34 Trig. 91

For some reason I can't get the HDL to go up over 39. My Dr. said more exercise and I work hard at it at least 1 hour 7 days a week but can't move the #. Maybe I have to work harder at losing some weight.

So he didn't mention anything specifically about diet? I have read exercise can improve HDL. When I was in my 30s I was very active even though I ate poorly, I had excellent numbers. I still exercise daily between hour and 90 min., but not with the intensity. I have had no weight gain, but I started last week to make myself more active even if its just to move for movements sake. I will get one of those fit things shortly also to monitor movement. If this doesn't work, I don't know, as I have little weight to lose and I eat basically grains and fruit and some chicken. I might try the low carb thing if there is a link to improving HDL.

 

[TromboneAl]

I recalculated your LDL with a better formula (see this paper), and it isn't much lower: 134.2 instead of 137. That's what you'd expect to see if your LDL was measured directly instead of calculated.

If your triglycerides go down more, it will be even lower.

I'm sure you've seen this:

The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. » Low-carbohydrate diets increase LDL: debunking the myth

My calculations (please check them):

Don Yesterday:
Total Cholesterol 241
HDL ...................86
LDL ..................137
Triglycerides .......91


Using the Friedewald calculation:

LDL = TC – HDL – (TG / 5)

LDL = 241 - 86 - (91/5) = 136.8 Check. Indicates use of the above formula.

Better formula for those with TG < 100:

LDL = TC/1.19 + TG/1.9 – HDL/1.1 – 38

LDL = 241/1.19 + 91/1.9 - 86/1.1 - 38 = 202.5 + 47.9 - 78.2 -38

LDL = 202.5+47.9-78.2-38

LDL = 134.2

 

[73ss454]

I think my weight is the problem. I don't smoke or use alcohol. I'm 6'4" and 278. I've always been heavy but I like to say I'm big boned. (heh) Since I've been holding off on SS I need to get my weight down so I can get at least to the break even point.

 

[TromboneAl]

I have read exercise can improve HDL.

When I discussed my number with my (former) doc, I mentioned how my HDL was high because of the low carbing. He said, "Oh, no that's all from your exercising." But I hadn't changed my exercise at all. So I think that doctors are not aware of a lot of this stuff (even though my former doc was a low carber himself).

In this video, the researcher talks about how low carb changes the numbers (at 24:40).

I haven't found a study that looks specifically at this.

 

[gindie]

I just looked at my #'s for the same years. I turned 63 last month.

2009 LDL 90 HDL 30 Trig. 128

2010 LDL 103 HDL 39 Trig. 114

2011 LDL 102 HDL 34 Trig. 91

For some reason I can't get the HDL to go up over 39. My Dr. said more exercise and I work hard at it at least 1 hour 7 days a week but can't move the #. Maybe I have to work harder at losing some weight.

Niacin (vitamin B-3) can help quite a bit with HDL. You might find this article interesting: Using Niacin to Improve Cardiovascular Health - Life Extension

 

[donheff]

When I discussed my number with my (former) doc, I mentioned how my HDL was high because of the low carbing. He said, "Oh, no that's all from your exercising." But I hadn't changed my exercise at all. So I think that doctors are not aware of a lot of this stuff (even though my former doc was a low carber himself).

My HDL went up 19 mg in the five weeks I have been on LCHF. If anything I have been slacking on exercise during much of that period. I did a lot of riding while in CA for two weeks but I have not done my normal mileage since I got back. So clearly for me at least, exercise is not responsible.

 

[harley]

Those of you that have the low HDL counts might be interessted in this. I also have low HDL. I did a lot of research into what I could do about it. Exercise seemed to be the most recommended, but "they" said it could raise it as much as 5-10%. Well, when your HDL is 30, 10% isn't helping much. But I did some reading on Niacin, and started taking that after talking it over with my doc. My HDL went from ~30 to 45, and has stayed there, even though I'm not exercising and haven't lost much weight. There is a side effect, called a flush. It's like a mini hot flash, but it only lasts 5 minutes or so. Not enough of a discomfort for me to reject such a great improvement in HDL. There is a no-flush type of Niacin, but it supposedly doesn't give you the HDL increase. Just something for you to look into if you are interested in increasing your HDL levels.

 

[haha]

Here is a very interesting Men's Health interview with Dr. Ronald Krauss, the inventor of one of the methods for characterizing lipoprotein particle size.

A quick and dirty summary would be, if you want to improve your HDL-C and your LDL particle size, lose the low fat diet. Also, put some cream on those strawberries!

Understanding Cholesterol and Heart Disease | Men's Health

 

[eytonxav]

I'm in the low HDL camp and have tried niacin and also lift heavy, but neither will move my number to any significant degree. I suspect a lot of folks are just destined to have low HDL simply due to their genetics.

 

[haha]

I'm in the low HDL camp and have tried niacin and also lift heavy, but neither will move my number to any significant degree. I suspect a lot of folks are just destined to have low HDL simply due to their genetics.

I am not certain I remember this correctly, but I think one of the Krauss papers stated that LDL pattern A (larger particles, and more health positive) can be converted to the negative small particle pattern B by a low fat, high carb diet. But it may be that a low carb diet tends not to change a person from negative pattern B to better pattern A.

Regarding exercise specifically, a paper by a different Dr. Kraus (William E Kraus, not Donald M Krauss), showed that 3 hours of aerobic exercise (usually 3 one hour sessions) did increase average HDL significantly over and above the controls. The participants jogged or rode exercycles at 65-80% of maximum heart rate.

Ha

 

[Mulligan]

I am not certain I remember this correctly, but I think one of the Krauss papers stated that LDL pattern A (larger articles, and more health positive) can be converted to the negative small partile pattern B by a low fat, high carb diet. But it may be th tdiet tends not to change a person from negative pattern B to better pattern A.

Regarding exercise specifically, a paper by a different Dr. Kraus (William E Kraus, not Donald M Krauss), showed that at 3 hours of aerobic exercise (usually 3 one hour sessions) did increase average HDL significantly over and above the controls. The participants jogged or rode exercycles at 65-80% of maximum heart rate.

Ha

I am afraid your last paragraph is my problem. 12 years ago when I ate like potato chips, pizza, burgers and french fries were the 4 food groups, my cholesterol numbers and HDL was outstanding, but I would train long and hard. My back and knees now have no tolerance for running and my ligaments and tendons bark at any high level lifting, so now I am reduced to walking hills and maintenance lifting. I will try some more diet modifications, but maybe I should just start swallowing a baby aspirin each day since apparently my puffy particle days are behind me. I just dont get how the HDL numbers get worse even the diet is significantly better.