MILD (minimally invasive lumbar decompression)

[Dash man]

I think I remember a discussion thread back then. Great to hear it worked for you, as it did for me.



Then frayne and I need to start playing the lottery.

Look, there is pain and then there is pain.

I will never be pain free because I have O.A. I can live with 1 to 5 pain. I think the people disappointed are the ones who can't accept any pain and expect surgery to fix it.

When you have 9 or 10 pain (or even worse, severe loss of strength or bodily functions), you will take the risk because frankly, living with pain that causes you to lose your breath and see stars will drive you to do anything. Thank goodness I never got on the opioid train. I understand how and why people do.

I agree with you, but if several surgeons tell me I’m not a surgical candidate, I’m not going to force the issue. It’s been told to me with three different MRIs shown to both neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons. The 1 in 300 comment came from an informal discussion I had with an orthopedic surgeon from my church. I was not his patient.
The 1-10 pain levels vary by every individual and one person’s level can’t be compared to another. Doctor’s use it to compare the individual’s pain level over time. I’ve experienced all levels of pain and been taken by ambulance to the ER more than I care to remember, especially since they don’t know how to help much. PT has help more with my cervical spine problems than with my lower spine.

 

[Koolau]

So it's not just me.

I've had back issues all my life, but the past 18 months has been a new level. Mentioned the steroid shots already. Not enough "obvious" x-ray or MRI evidence to "do" anything (they don't have any idea what to do - and admit it.)

When I talk to PCP, he's sympathetic, but doesn't really offer much help. He refuses to give the "good" pain killers 'cause he's afraid of losing his medical license. He did send me to the pain specialist, but even that is far from perfect.

So, I guess pain - especially back pain - is just one of those things of aging that, to a certain extent, we can expect as we age.

That's depressing though YMMV.

 

[Chuckanut]

Here's an interesting few minutes from an otherwise nearly interminable interview Peter Attia did with Layne Norton on muscle and body mass. In one small part they discuss lower back pain, and MRIs ,and why being stronger is better especially if one is in pain.
Start at 1hr 17 minutes unless you are really in to the tall weeds of medical jargon. You can end at about 1:20 unless you want to hear about the middle aged woman who is trying to get into shape.

https://peterattiamd.com/laynenorton2/

Two great quotes:

"there is probably no more diagnostic test that is uncorrelated from clinical outcome than an MRI of the lumbar spine".

"Treatment should be based on pain, and what triggers your pain."

 

[JoeWras]

I agree with you, but if several surgeons tell me I’m not a surgical candidate, I’m not going to force the issue.

Indication for back surgery is unique to everyone. If I gave the impression of trying to "sell" it to you or anyone, I apologize. As I mentioned earlier, people should wait a year, at least, before even considering it, except in certain emergency situations. Try everything else beforehand.

And some people just don't want surgery and that's fine if the pain can be managed.

For those of us who choose surgery, I ask that our decision also be respected. (Not saying you disrespected me, Dash man. Just a general comment.)

One more comment on back pain... Even if you want to be conservative, see a doctor. Back pain can mean other things. A good church friend went to his doctor with back pain and ended up soon after being treated for multiple mylenoma. He had no other symptoms of cancer except for his back pain.

 

[Dash man]

For those of us who choose surgery, I ask that our decision also be respected. (Not saying you disrespected me, Dash man. Just a general comment.)

+1

One more comment on back pain... Even if you want to be conservative, see a doctor. Back pain can mean other things. A good church friend went to his doctor with back pain and ended up soon after being treated for multiple mylenoma. He had no other symptoms of cancer except for his back pain.

+1000
Back pain can also be an indicator of heart problems. Any pain that hangs on with no obvious cause should be checked out by your doctor.

 

[npage]

I will never be pain free because I have O.A. I can live with 1 to 5 pain. I think the people disappointed are the ones who can't accept any pain and expect surgery to fix it.

This is me. I am barely coming up on 5th decade and unfortunately have O.A at my age. Mix in an old thoracic compression fracture that left it at 50% height, degenerative disc across entire lumbar, few mild bulges, a small cyst, it all adds up to pain but yet no one thing a surgeon would go after. Many days my pain is a 2 to 3 and when I over do it a 10. Often just a constant 4.

The ablations and celebrex help for sure but there is no great answer. I could find a surgeon at this point, had one who said he can do a fusion but you may end up the same or worse long term given age and was really hesitant.

My pain mgmt. doctor who does ablations concurs as have multiple other doctors.

So we just soldier on. I think a lot of doctors though and people that don't suffer don't quite get the frustration though that just routine living causing pain at a 5 or under can get one down and steal life impacting every decision on should I or should I not sit on this chair, get in the car, travel here or there, lift that, clean this, and on and on.

 

[nvgs123]

Myofacial Release Massage

Have you tried Myofascial Release Massage?
It may or may not help you but worth looking into.

My situation was a bit different but DID NOT WANT surgery.

A friend suggested Myofascial Release Massage; 4 sessions later....no problems at all. Which is to say, dramatically decreased pain, increased range of motion, etc.

Please consult a trained (John F. Barnes Myofascial Release Courses) technician.
Worth a shot....
Good luck!

 

[shafer9]

Check ALL minimally invasive alternatives.
There’s a good reason there is a “failed back surgery syndrome.”

 

[shafer9]

It’s exhausting. And a drag.

 

[Koolau]

It’s exhausting. And a drag.

Yep, that pretty well sums it up.

 

[meleana]

My brother had spinal fusion done a few years ago in his 50’s and it worked great. But he went to the best surgeon in NY at a center for special surgery.

I have recently been diagnosed with severe spinal stenosis and the ortho surgeon told me for my case he doesn’t recommend surgery unless I really become incapacitated. Especially since I seem fairly strong and can walk an hour.

Just started physical therapy and using an inversion table (which I used to always use an inversion bench anyway) and continuing my usual walking and other exercises routines but more subdued versions.

All I know is inversion and walking and isometric exercises and yoga obviously didn’t help me in the long run. My husband who never exercised in his life except a short walk now and then, feels great. SMH…

 

[Koolau]

My brother had spinal fusion done a few years ago in his 50’s and it worked great. But he went to the best surgeon in NY at a center for special surgery.

I have recently been diagnosed with severe spinal stenosis and the ortho surgeon told me for my case he doesn’t recommend surgery unless I really become incapacitated. Especially since I seem fairly strong and can walk an hour.

Just started physical therapy and using an inversion table (which I used to always use an inversion bench anyway) and continuing my usual walking and other exercises routines but more subdued versions.

All I know is inversion and walking and isometric exercises and yoga obviously didn’t help me in the long run. My husband who never exercised in his life except a short walk now and then, feels great. SMH…

Good genes trump good behavior when it comes to backs - and a lot of other things. Just one more of life's little inequities. YMMV

 

[Bamaman]

My wife has terrible back arthritis and had a laminectomy 20 years ago when she started losing leg strength. She's been under pain management 25 years and had too many steroid injections, too much morphine and every treatment known to man--including a recently implanted neurostimulator.

As her condition deteriorated, the state has been pushing all pain management clinics to cut back dramatically on prescribing controlled meds. Pain Management now gets you to the point of where you're completely miserable--and then they take pill away. And they never give you more pain meds--despite pain getting worse and worse.

My wife's pain meds last 3 1/2 hours. But she only gets the meds every 6 hours. She's essentially in excruciating pain half of the day, and she's up all night. She can barely walk, is in an electric wheelchair and it's like her feet are on fire. She's at the point where life is not worth living like this.

Her bottom 4 cervical discs are scheduled to be removed and replaced with cages on one day's surgery through her side and front. They will come back 2 days later and do back fusions and more partial laminectomies and straighten minor scoliosis. The surgeon doesn't have 10-12 hours of this type of surgery in him--staying sharp.

They're supposed to get you up walking the next day. Hospitalization is a week, which includes PT. But it's a 6 month to 12 month recuperation with substantial PT.

We have a number of beefs with pain management. When they go step by step through addressing a patient's problem, they just barely deal with pain using meds, injections and ablations. Since they're limited on how much medicine they can prescribe, there becomes a point when they need to pass off the patient off to a good neurosurgeon after doing a MRI and CT Scan. Had the tests been done earlier, my wife wouldn't have had a $65,000 neurostimulator implant. She would have been sent directly to the surgeon for the last resort surgery.

Please pray for us, as the next 6 months will be the most demanding of our lives. We're raising a 10 year old granddaughter that may have to be sent to her aunt for the near future. And we don't really know what we're facing.

 

[Bamaman]

There are a number of great YouTube animations on minimally evasive back surgeries. They show exactly how the surgeries are done, and they're just remarkable--without the blood and guts.

The top dog of all back surgeons is Dr. Kevin Foley at Semmes Murphy Clinic in Memphis. He also has some impressive YouTubes. Dr. Foley has over 175 patents on surgical implants and tools and is really the founder of all present surgical techniques. He's presently pushing robotic surgery for back and neck surgeries.

 

[Koolau]

My wife has terrible back arthritis and had a laminectomy 20 years ago when she started losing leg strength. She's been under pain management 25 years and had too many steroid injections, too much morphine and every treatment known to man--including a recently implanted neurostimulator.

As her condition deteriorated, the state has been pushing all pain management clinics to cut back dramatically on prescribing controlled meds. Pain Management now gets you to the point of where you're completely miserable--and then they take pill away. And they never give you more pain meds--despite pain getting worse and worse.

My wife's pain meds last 3 1/2 hours. But she only gets the meds every 6 hours. She's essentially in excruciating pain half of the day, and she's up all night. She can barely walk, is in an electric wheelchair and it's like her feet are on fire. She's at the point where life is not worth living like this.

Her bottom 4 cervical discs are scheduled to be removed and replaced with cages on one day's surgery through her side and front. They will come back 2 days later and do back fusions and more partial laminectomies and straighten minor scoliosis. The surgeon doesn't have 10-12 hours of this type of surgery in him--staying sharp.

They're supposed to get you up walking the next day. Hospitalization is a week, which includes PT. But it's a 6 month to 12 month recuperation with substantial PT.

We have a number of beefs with pain management. When they go step by step through addressing a patient's problem, they just barely deal with pain using meds, injections and ablations. Since they're limited on how much medicine they can prescribe, there becomes a point when they need to pass off the patient off to a good neurosurgeon after doing a MRI and CT Scan. Had the tests been done earlier, my wife wouldn't have had a $65,000 neurostimulator implant. She would have been sent directly to the surgeon for the last resort surgery.

Please pray for us, as the next 6 months will be the most demanding of our lives. We're raising a 10 year old granddaughter that may have to be sent to her aunt for the near future. And we don't really know what we're facing.

Bamaman, your wife's ordeal makes me ashamed for complaining about my back issues. I'm praying for your DW.

 

[chris2008]

Would it be an option to buy her pain meds in countries without such rigid rules?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Early Retirement Forum mobile app

 

[harllee]

Bamaman I am praying for your wife, for you, for the surgeons and for your granddaughter right now and will continue daily. Maybe you can start a separate thread about your wife and her health issues. Talking about it to your friends here on the Forum might help you deal with things.

 

[JoeWras]

I think anyone going into back surgery should know all the risks, and I'll say it again, one should try everything else conservative before proceeding with surgery. So someone mentioned failed back surgery syndrome. I knew about this before my surgery and read up on it and decided my pain was so bad and persistent than any failure wouldn't be worse.

Here's an excellent article about the FBSS problem. I find this site to be very fair and full of all kinds of information about your back issue. What spoke to me before my surgery was the fact my pain was primarily in my leg, not my back. FBSS is rarer with my issue.

https://www.spine-health.com/treatm...fbss-what-it-and-how-avoid-pain-after-surgery